Harvey Norman won's accept return of Ear Buds bought online...hygiene

paddy19

I bought a set of Ear Buds from Harvey Norman Online over €150 worth.
I was happy in the mistaken belief that I could return them within 14 days for a full refund under the EU rule.

They won't stay in my ear when running no matter what I do.
I have tried different sizes, read the instructions on how to screw them into my lobes etc etc.

When one falls out it's a bit of panic because they are small and hard to find on grass etc.

Harvey Norman won't take them back because they are a hygiene product. Buried in the same print :mad:

"Thank you for your e-mail.Unfortunately, due to hygeine reasons, we are unable to offer a refund or exchange on this once they have been removed from their packaging.This would apply to mattresses, pillows, headphones, haircare, menscare and electric blankets. This can be seen in our returns policy here: https://www.harveynorman.ie/customer-services/returns-policy.htmlI apologise for any inconveninece caused.Kind regards"
(Interesting HV can't even spell hygiene or inconvenience.)

Very sneaky they don't say anywhere on the product web page that the 14 day rule does not apply.

Argos put a note on each hygiene product saying they can't be returned.
They don't consider ear buds a hygiene product.

Currys don't seem to have any hygiene exclusions.

Needless to say Amazon take them back no bother at all.

Apart from flogging them on ebay at about half the price I don't seem to have many options.

Harvey Norman don't seem to give a damn that I am stuck with a product I can't use..

Xterminator

Hi Paddy.

Does seem harsh alright. there are exceptions to the 14 day return / change of mind rule. As you said the fact they dont out an explicit warning on the page, when purchasing means you might reasonable expect the right to return, and that will influence your decision to buy.

I would suggest you make a formal complaint, highlighting the way amazon and argos handle the process for similar products differently, and that you reasonably expected the right to return. Perhaps a compromise of store credid could be agreed.

Im not sure you have a legal right, but if complaint fails i would contact manufacturer and claim the product is unusable and see where that goes.

if all else fails you could risk 25quid on a small claims court case, stating they are not fit for purpose, and you may get a default judgement, but is more of a hail mary approach

L1011

The hygiene exemption is legislative, any stores exception to it is their own decision basically

paddy19

L1011 wrote: »

The hygiene exemption is legislative, any stores exception to it is their own decision basically

Two issues here:
They are legally entitled to use the hygiene exemption.
Are they entitled to bury it in the exemptions terms?
Should they not highlight it on every product page like Argos do?

I thought the days of burying this sort of sneaky exclusions were over.:mad:

They are unusual in including headphones under the hygiene exemption.
Amazon, Argos and Currys don't.
How am I supposed to know that HV have decided that ear buds are a hygiene risk?

Caranica

How would you not consider something that's been inside your ears as a hygiene risk?

There's no way I'd expect a store to take them back...or buy them second hand!!

paddy19

Caranica wrote: »

How would you not consider something that's been inside your ears as a hygiene risk?

There's no way I'd expect a store to take them back...or buy them second hand!!

What do you with yours hands every day to ensure they are not a hygiene risk?

I'm expecting that they would sanitise the silicon tips!

Not rocket science!

ED E

Amazon etc don't clean them, they take the hit on them and sell them off in pallets at cents on the euro.

Damien360

Had a similar response in Harvey normans for a pair of skullcandy earbuds €150. Bass was crap. Went back the next day to either get a different brand or replacement set. They straight out said no as they didn’t have a fault. Manager wouldn’t come near me and sent the floor sales girl to talk to me while he walked around the Apple section of Naas store. All this just before the pandemic. No mention of hygiene so is that new ?

paddy19

ED E wrote: »

Amazon etc don't clean them, they take the hit on them and sell them off in pallets at cents on the euro.

I'm open to correction but I think Amazon sell a lot of returned products through "Amazon Warehouse - Quality Pre-owned, Used and Open Box Products.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?i=electronics&bbn=3581866031&dc&fst=as%3Aoff&qid=1608296726&ref=lp_3581866031_nr_i_2

Have you a reference for this claim?

GarIT

paddy19 wrote: »

Two issues here:
They are legally entitled to use the hygiene exemption.
Are they entitled to bury it in the exemptions terms?
Should they not highlight it on every product page like Argos do?

I thought the days of burying this sort of sneaky exclusions were over.:mad:

They are unusual in including headphones under the hygiene exemption.
Amazon, Argos and Currys don't.
How am I supposed to know that HV have decided that ear buds are a hygiene risk?

They don't even need to state it. The exemption exists in law whether they state it or not.

paddy19

Damien360 wrote: »

Had a similar response in Harvey normans for a pair of skullcandy earbuds €150. Bass was crap. Went back the next day to either get a different brand or replacement set. They straight out said no as they didn’t have a fault. Manager wouldn’t come near me and sent the floor sales girl to talk to me while he walked around the Apple section of Naas store. All this just before the pandemic. No mention of hygiene so is that new ?

I don't the hygiene exclusion for ear buds is new!

paddy19

GarIT wrote: »

They don't even need to state it. The exemption exists in law whether they state it or not.

The law does not define what products are hygiene exempted.
Each store has it's own definition.
How come Amazon, Argus and Currys don't define ear buds as hygiene exempted.

Anyhow that's not the issue. They are legally entitled to define there own list of hygiene products.

Why don't they say it upfront on each and every product page like Argos do for jewellery.

"Additional Information: Please note that this product is excluded from our 30 Day Money Back Guarantee.
This does not affect your statutory rights."

https://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/5696206/Trail/searchtext%3EEAR+RINGS+.htm

If they had that on the page I would not bought the buds from Harvey Norman!

How am I expected to know the buds will work for me, inspiration, telepathy?

Caranica

paddy19 wrote: »

What do you with yours hands every day to ensure they are not a hygiene risk?

I'm expecting that they would sanitise the silicon tips!

Not rocket science!

It's not just the silicone tips that are a risk. Epithelial cells in your ears flake really easily and can get into the earbuds themselves. Would I want someone's cells dislodging from earbuds and getting into my body through my ears. That's a big no. Rocket science it's not but you're talking to a cell biologist here!

GarIT

paddy19 wrote: »

The law does not define what products are hygiene exempted.
Each store has it's own definition.
How come Amazon, Argus and Currys don't define ear buds as hygiene exempted.

Anyhow that's not the issue. They are legally entitled to define there own list of hygiene products.

Why don't they say it upfront on each and every product page like Argos do for jewellery.

"Additional Information: Please note that this product is excluded from our 30 Day Money Back Guarantee.
This does not affect your statutory rights."

https://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/5696206/Trail/searchtext%3EEAR+RINGS+.htm

If they had that on the page I would not bought the buds from Harvey Norman!

How am I expected to know the buds will work for me, inspiration, telepathy?

Yeah it's not a great situation but they aren't required to. Complain to the EU if you have a problem otherwise you can accept that's the way it is.

paddy19

Caranica wrote: »

It's not just the silicone tips that are a risk. Epithelial cells in your ears flake really easily and can get into the earbuds themselves. Would I want someone's cells dislodging from earbuds and getting into my body through my ears. That's a big no. Rocket science it's not but you're talking to a cell biologist here!

Samsung have a guide on how to clean their ear buds so I think they probably know about the flaky bits risk.

https://www.samsung.com/us/support/answer/ANS00086123/

We're veering a tweetch off topic here so I'd suggest we end the hygiene discussion here.

GarIT

You can also buy alternate tips for many popular earbuds, that might a solution.

paddy19

GarIT wrote: »

Yeah it's not a great situation but they aren't required to. Complain to the EU if you have a problem otherwise you can accept that's the way it is.

I think my case might be a wee bit stronger than I first thought.

It's only an EU recommendation but I think it bolsters my case that the Harvey Norman practice of burying the hygiene condition is misleading and unfair.

4. Provide information that is most relevant for consumers at different stages of the purchase in a clear and comprehensible manner.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/sr_information_presentation.pdf

chops018

You came on here to post about your situation and what happened.

Posters replied that they are in their right to refuse a refund or exchange due to hygiene reasons.

Now you're telling posters they are veering off topic for discussing why something like Ear Buds are treated as such and how a simple clean will not be good enough.

Tbh, they were opened by you and they have been used. They are now second hand.

It's unfortunate the product is not fit for purpose and even more so that you cannot rely on the distance selling legislation.

However, it is what it is. I think it's fair that they will not accept returns on items mentioned in their email to you. I know I wouldn't be in a rush to buy second hand and used Ear Buds.

Even putting the hygiene reason aside for a second, I still wouldn't go to a store like Harvey Norman's and buy a second hand electrical product that has been used, purely for the fact that it has been used. I want to buy a brand new, unused item. It would want to be heavily discounted for that. If something like Ear Buds, iPad etc. are opened and used and then you want to return them because the size is not correct or other such reason then I think it is fair that the vendor is not obliged to give you a refund or exchange. If the product was broke however then yes they should give a refund or exchange.

If they were to say, have been opened by you a few days after you received them, and somehow broke upon you opening them, I'm sure if they were returned on that basis you'd have gotten a refund or exchange.

L1011

Its not a condition they realistically need to expose; though - that's the point. You don't have any right to return under distance selling regulations here.

Your best options here are to either get bigger silicone tips or try sell them on Adverts/Facebook Marketplace to cut your losses. Small Claims is 25 quid (not reclaimable) + a day off to go to court if they insist on a hearing and with exceptionally limited chance of success.

And finally - moderators decide if somethings off topic, not posters.

chops018

paddy19 wrote: »

I think my case might be a wee bit stronger than I first thought.

It's only an EU recommendation but I think it bolsters my case that the Harvey Norman practice of burying the hygiene condition is misleading and unfair.

4. Provide information that is most relevant for consumers at different stages of the purchase in a clear and comprehensible manner.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/sr_information_presentation.pdf

Nah. You're at nothing. This will all be ignored by Harvey Norman's. You'd be better off publicly posting on Facebook or Twitter to them and trying to get the refund or exchange that way. Their online agents actually have a bit of pull and might be able to get you a refund or exchange based on goodwill.

See the below, at page 5:

https://www.ccpc.ie/business/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2017/03/CRD-Guidance_FINAL.pdf

"The trader does not have to accept the cancellation of a contract in certain circumstances, for example if:

- The seal on the goods have been broken by the consumer and cannot be resold, for example for hygiene or health reason."

How can you not see that Ear Buds are a product of a hygenic nature. Who's to know who the person who bought them, opened them, used them, then returned them has clean or not clean ears or an infection with bacteria. Completely reasonable for them not to accept opened and used Ear Buds back.

frozenfrozen

get skin tape to keep them in while you're running

paddy19

L1011 wrote: »

Its not a condition they realistically need to expose; though - that's the point. You don't have any right to return under distance selling regulations here.

Your best options here are to either get bigger silicone tips or try sell them on Adverts/Facebook Marketplace to cut your losses. Small Claims is 25 quid (not reclaimable) + a day off to go to court if they insist on a hearing and with exceptionally limited chance of success.

I don't understand why" Its not a condition they realistically need to expose".
They have this unusual condition that other similar retailers don't have.
Why should they be allowed to bury it?

It is unfair, sneaky, underhand and finally stupid.

Why would anyone buy from Harvey Norman when they can't check out if the product works for them.

The logical answer is buy the same product from Argos, Amazon or Currys.
That strikes as a screw the consumer attitude from the 70's.

Thankfully we now have options with suppliers who understand that meet a consumers requirements is smart business.

Where is your evidence that a case here would have a "small chance of success"?

GarIT

paddy19 wrote: »

I don't understand why" Its not a condition they realistically need to expose".
They have this unusual condition that other similar retailers don't have.
Why should they be allowed to bury it?

It is unfair, sneaky, underhand and finally stupid.

Why would anyone buy from Harvey Norman when they can't check out if the product works for them.

The logical answer is buy the same product from Argos, Amazon or Currys.
That strikes as a screw the consumer attitude from the 70's.

Thankfully we now have options with suppliers who understand that meet a consumers requirements is smart business.

Where is your evidence that a case here would have a "small chance of success"?

Ok, that's nice. Go ahead with the SCC case if that's what you want after asking for advice and the advice says don't.

un5byh7sqpd2x0

If it was a pair of jocks, would you expect a shop to take them back after you’ve worn them?

L1011

paddy19 wrote: »

Where is your evidence that a case here would have a "small chance of success"?

Because its a legal exception they have used to the distance selling rules

I actually suspect you'd only have a small chance of the registrar accepting the case to begin with.

I don't think you want to accept the advice you've received here

As for "smart business" - the stores that would let you return these would be binning them, total loss, done on the hope you'll shop there in future. That's really questionable business.

paddy19

GarIT wrote: »

Ok, that's nice. Go ahead with the SCC case if that's what you want after asking for advice and the advice says don't.

I was very nice, the poster made a claim that the chance of success in small claims had " exceptionally limited chance of success."

I simply asked for evidence. Not an unreasonable request.

Maybe he brought or knew of a similar case or could help me understand why going down that route had a "" exceptionally limited chance of success."

frozenfrozen

If I found out a shop took in used earbuds and resold them I'd not shop there

GarIT

paddy19 wrote: »

I was very nice, the poster made a claim that the chance of success in small claims had " exceptionally limited chance of success."

I simply asked for evidence. Not an unreasonable request.

Maybe he brought or knew of a similar case or could help me understand why going down that route had a "" exceptionally limited chance of success."

It is unreasonable.

Zhane

Would you buy a second hand toothbrush because someone felt the handle was uncomfortable after using it? Don’t worry the bristles have been sanitised...

paddy19

L1011 wrote: »

Because its a legal exception they have used to the distance selling rules

I actually suspect you'd only have a small chance of the registrar accepting the case to begin with.

I don't think you want to accept the advice you've received here

As for "smart business" - the stores that would let you return these would be binning them, total loss, done on the hope you'll shop there in future. That's really questionable business.

I doubt retailers are binning €150 ear buds. Amazon certainly doesn't bin returned ear buds. They put on Amazon marketplace and tell people upfront that the box is open or damaged.

This sort of underhand practice is going to kill the high street.

Mrcaramelchoc

Zhane wrote: »

Would you buy a second hand toothbrush because someone felt the handle was uncomfortable after using it? Don’t worry the bristles have been sanitised...

How much do you want for it?