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Dual listed stocks and Brexit

  • 16-12-2020 11:55am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,762 ✭✭✭ MrMusician18


    I know I received notification from degiro about having to do something about the dual listed stocks that I own, but I completely, but I engaged in wishful thinking similar that the UK and EU would come to summer sort of sensible agreement.

    Since it's now looks like no deal, or at most a minimum deal for goods and not services, I'm just wondering what others have done here regarding their dual listed stocks in preparation for 1 Jan?


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭ sector_000


    I had that exact same concern.

    See my post in https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057789028&page=61


  • Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭ sector_000


    What did you decide to do?

    I'm concerned about various LSE dual-listed holdings.
    For now, I have left most of my dual-listed holdings intact.
    Speaking to DeGiro this evening they said they still have a contract with LSE... but the cust ser rep would chat to his expert colleague(s) and email me back tomorrow.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,762 ✭✭✭ MrMusician18


    sector_000 wrote: »
    What did you decide to do?

    I'm concerned about various LSE dual-listed holdings.
    For now, I have left most of my dual-listed holdings intact.
    Speaking to DeGiro this evening they said they still have a contract with LSE... but the cust ser rep would chat to his expert colleague(s) and email me back tomorrow.

    I didn't do anything. I would prefer to continue to trade on the LSE as it is more liquid so am going to continue to hold. Hopefully this will be ok.


  • Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭ sector_000


    I didn't do anything. I would prefer to continue to trade on the LSE as it is more liquid so am going to continue to hold. Hopefully this will be ok.

    Yeah, I know what exactly you mean. While I'm leaning the same way, I did sell out of one of my smaller LSE positions and bought it right back on ISE. I also chose ISE over LSE when creating some other recent new positions. In the past, I would have gone straight to LSE.

    I gave up trying to read about this. I'm not sure if this is relevant: https://www.esma.europa.eu/press-news/esma-news/esma-recognise-euroclear-uk-ireland-limited-eui-after-brexit-transition-period

    I just want to focus on pricing and not administrative issues :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭ sector_000


    Bugger.... this hasn't gone away :mad:


    Just got a big long notification from DeGiro.
    I love the 3rd option... "do nothing.... hard to say what could happen.... wait and see"!!! :eek:

    Looks like I better get off the LSE :confused:

    We are contacting you as you currently have a position on the London Stock Exchange (LSE) with a European Union (EU) ISIN that is dual-listed on another European exchange, which will be impacted when the EU trading obligation for shares (STO) takes effect as of 1 January 2021 as a result of Brexit.

    We have previously informed you of this trading obligation, but with this e-mail, we wish to remind you of the details of the STO and your options in regards to your position(s).

    Share Trading obligation for dual-listed shares

    Due to EU regulations, specifically the Markets in Financial Instruments Regulation (MiFIR), some products that are listed on an EU/EEA trading venue cannot be traded on a non-European (“third-country”) trading venue. As it stands, the European Commission has not yet granted the LSE an equivalence status. The STO will therefore take effect as of 1 January 2021.

    The European Securities and Markets Authority (ESMA) has published a statement, which goes into more detail about the STO and the products that are impacted. The list of affected products that our clients, including you, have one or more positions can be found here. Please be aware that we have closed all products within the scope of the obligation, so you can close your position until 1 January 2021 but you cannot increase it.

    Options for your dual-listed shares in the scope of the STO

    As mentioned, the trading obligation will take effect as of 1 January 2021. Below are your options for your investment(s) that are in the scope of the obligation:

    -Sell before 1 January 2021:Sell your shares prior to the trading obligation taking effect. The regular transaction fee as per our Fee Schedule for selling on the LSE would be incurred.

    -Transfer:Transfer your shares to the European equivalent exchange. If you choose this option and send an e-mail to [email protected] before 15 January 2020 requesting to transfer your shares to an EU listing, we will process the transfer free of charge. Please keep in mind that we cannot guarantee that the transfer will be successful. Additionally, a transfer can take a few days to a few weeks to complete. After 15 January 2020, it will still be possible for you to request a transfer of your shares to a European Exchange. In this case, the fees would be around €25. Depending on the product, a stamp duty of 1.5% could be applicable.

    -Do nothing:You are able to hold onto your shares. Due to the uncertainty around this matter, it is hard to say what could happen in the future. However, you do have the option to wait and see.

    If you are unsure which position(s) you have that are in the scope of the STO, you can check your portfolio within the platform while referencing the list of impacted products. If you would like to find out the European equivalent exchange that the product trades on, the best way to find out is by entering the product’s ISIN code in the search bar in the platform.

    As an investor, what you choose to do with your investments is entirely up to your discretion. We are an execution-only broker and therefore we are not allowed to provide advisory services of any kind. However, if you have any general questions pertaining to this matter, please feel free to contact our Service Desk. We are always happy to assist you.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,762 ✭✭✭ MrMusician18


    sector_000 wrote: »
    Bugger.... this hasn't gone away :mad:


    Just got a big long notification from DeGiro.
    I love the 3rd option... "do nothing.... hard to say what could happen.... wait and see"!!! :eek:

    Looks like I better get off the LSE :confused:

    We are contacting you as you currently have a position on the London Stock Exchange (LSE) with a European Union (EU) ISIN that is dual-listed on another European exchange, which will be impacted when the EU trading obligation for shares (STO) takes effect as of 1 January 2021 as a result of Brexit.

    We have previously informed you of this trading obligation, but with this e-mail, we wish to remind you of the details of the STO and your options in regards to your position(s).

    Share Trading obligation for dual-listed shares

    Due to EU regulations, specifically the Markets in Financial Instruments Regulation (MiFIR), some products that are listed on an EU/EEA trading venue cannot be traded on a non-European (“third-country”) trading venue. As it stands, the European Commission has not yet granted the LSE an equivalence status. The STO will therefore take effect as of 1 January 2021.

    The European Securities and Markets Authority (ESMA) has published a statement, which goes into more detail about the STO and the products that are impacted. The list of affected products that our clients, including you, have one or more positions can be found here. Please be aware that we have closed all products within the scope of the obligation, so you can close your position until 1 January 2021 but you cannot increase it.

    Options for your dual-listed shares in the scope of the STO

    As mentioned, the trading obligation will take effect as of 1 January 2021. Below are your options for your investment(s) that are in the scope of the obligation:

    -Sell before 1 January 2021:Sell your shares prior to the trading obligation taking effect. The regular transaction fee as per our Fee Schedule for selling on the LSE would be incurred.

    -Transfer:Transfer your shares to the European equivalent exchange. If you choose this option and send an e-mail to [email protected] before 15 January 2020 requesting to transfer your shares to an EU listing, we will process the transfer free of charge. Please keep in mind that we cannot guarantee that the transfer will be successful. Additionally, a transfer can take a few days to a few weeks to complete. After 15 January 2020, it will still be possible for you to request a transfer of your shares to a European Exchange. In this case, the fees would be around €25. Depending on the product, a stamp duty of 1.5% could be applicable.

    -Do nothing:You are able to hold onto your shares. Due to the uncertainty around this matter, it is hard to say what could happen in the future. However, you do have the option to wait and see.

    If you are unsure which position(s) you have that are in the scope of the STO, you can check your portfolio within the platform while referencing the list of impacted products. If you would like to find out the European equivalent exchange that the product trades on, the best way to find out is by entering the product’s ISIN code in the search bar in the platform.

    As an investor, what you choose to do with your investments is entirely up to your discretion. We are an execution-only broker and therefore we are not allowed to provide advisory services of any kind. However, if you have any general questions pertaining to this matter, please feel free to contact our Service Desk. We are always happy to assist you.

    Just got that same email myself. Might just close my positions tomorrow...


  • Registered Users Posts: 429 ✭✭ Blowheads


    I got same but for a very small position. Would I be as well to sell all and move on to etoro poor something?

    Do nothing, I assume we cannot lose those shares?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,762 ✭✭✭ MrMusician18


    Blowheads wrote: »
    I got same but for a very small position. Would I be as well to sell all and move on to etoro poor something?

    Do nothing, I assume we cannot lose those shares?

    I doubt you can lose them but I wouldn't be surprised if there are hefty fees to regularize your position after Brexit


  • Registered Users Posts: 429 ✭✭ Blowheads


    I doubt you can lose them but I wouldn't be surprised if there are hefty fees to regularize your position after Brexit

    Hefty? Any idea?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,762 ✭✭✭ MrMusician18


    Blowheads wrote: »
    Hefty? Any idea?

    No idea, I'm only guessing. If the fees were anything more than a few hundred euro they'd exceed the size of my own troublesome positions so I'll get out tomorrow, hopefully!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭ sector_000


    Regarding "Do Nothing", all DeGiro say about this option is "You are able to hold onto your shares. Due to the uncertainty around this matter, it is hard to say what could happen in the future. However, you do have the option to wait and see."


    However, according to the notice I received from DeGiro, they can process a transfer of the shares free of charge as long as you request that by 15-Jan-2021. After that, it's a ~€25 charge! They also say that "Depending on the product, a stamp duty of 1.5% could be applicable." Yikes!

    Products affected are:

    GLANBIA IE0000669501 EUR
    KINGSPAN GRP. IE0004927939 EUR
    KERRY GRP.'A' IE0004906560 EUR
    TOTAL ORD FR0000120271 EUR
    PERM TSB GRP IE00BWB8X525 EUR
    CAIRN IE00BWY4ZF18 EUR
    RYANAIR HLDG. IE00BYTBXV33 EUR
    BK. CYPRUS HLDG IE00BD5B1Y92 EUR
    IRISH CONTINENTAL GROUP PLC IE00BLP58571 EUR
    BANK OF IRELAND GROUP PLC IE00BD1RP616 EUR
    GLENVEAGH PROPERTIES PLC-WI IE00BD6JX574 EUR
    AIB GROUP IE00BF0L3536 EUR
    YEW GROVE REIT. IE00BDT5KP12 EUR
    UNIPHAR PLC IE00BJ5FQX74 EUR


  • Registered Users Posts: 689 ✭✭✭ jams100


    sector_000 wrote: »
    Regarding "Do Nothing", all DeGiro say about this option is "You are able to hold onto your shares. Due to the uncertainty around this matter, it is hard to say what could happen in the future. However, you do have the option to wait and see."


    However, according to the notice I received from DeGiro, they can process a transfer of the shares free of charge as long as you request that by 15-Jan-2021. After that, it's a ~€25 charge! They also say that "Depending on the product, a stamp duty of 1.5% could be applicable." Yikes!

    Products affected are:

    GLANBIA IE0000669501 EUR
    KINGSPAN GRP. IE0004927939 EUR
    KERRY GRP.'A' IE0004906560 EUR
    TOTAL ORD FR0000120271 EUR
    PERM TSB GRP IE00BWB8X525 EUR
    CAIRN IE00BWY4ZF18 EUR
    RYANAIR HLDG. IE00BYTBXV33 EUR
    BK. CYPRUS HLDG IE00BD5B1Y92 EUR
    IRISH CONTINENTAL GROUP PLC IE00BLP58571 EUR
    BANK OF IRELAND GROUP PLC IE00BD1RP616 EUR
    GLENVEAGH PROPERTIES PLC-WI IE00BD6JX574 EUR
    AIB GROUP IE00BF0L3536 EUR
    YEW GROVE REIT. IE00BDT5KP12 EUR
    UNIPHAR PLC IE00BJ5FQX74 EUR

    Are these just the Irish stocks effected?
    I'm thinking IAG and others might also be in there...IAG is on Spanish and London stock exchange

    I've never received any of these notifications from Degiro, strange


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,762 ✭✭✭ MrMusician18


    sector_000 wrote: »
    Regarding "Do Nothing", all DeGiro say about this option is "You are able to hold onto your shares. Due to the uncertainty around this matter, it is hard to say what could happen in the future. However, you do have the option to wait and see."


    However, according to the notice I received from DeGiro, they can process a transfer of the shares free of charge as long as you request that by 15-Jan-2021. After that, it's a ~€25 charge! They also say that "Depending on the product, a stamp duty of 1.5% could be applicable." Yikes!

    Products affected are:

    GLANBIA IE0000669501 EUR
    KINGSPAN GRP. IE0004927939 EUR
    KERRY GRP.'A' IE0004906560 EUR
    TOTAL ORD FR0000120271 EUR
    PERM TSB GRP IE00BWB8X525 EUR
    CAIRN IE00BWY4ZF18 EUR
    RYANAIR HLDG. IE00BYTBXV33 EUR
    BK. CYPRUS HLDG IE00BD5B1Y92 EUR
    IRISH CONTINENTAL GROUP PLC IE00BLP58571 EUR
    BANK OF IRELAND GROUP PLC IE00BD1RP616 EUR
    GLENVEAGH PROPERTIES PLC-WI IE00BD6JX574 EUR
    AIB GROUP IE00BF0L3536 EUR
    YEW GROVE REIT. IE00BDT5KP12 EUR
    UNIPHAR PLC IE00BJ5FQX74 EUR

    The notice I received from degiro said they'd do the transfer free of charge up to 15th Jan 2020. Much good that is now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭ sector_000


    The notice I received from degiro said they'd do the transfer free of charge up to 15th Jan 2020. Much good that is now.

    Ha! You're right. I assume that's a typo from them!


  • Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭ sector_000


    jams100 wrote: »
    Are these just the Irish stocks effected?
    I'm thinking IAG and others might also be in there...IAG is on Spanish and London stock exchange

    I've never received any of these notifications from Degiro, strange

    The document linked to by the DeGiro notification only listed those Irish stocks. Maybe you should call your broker & ask. Post if you learn something useful.


  • Registered Users Posts: 429 ✭✭ Blowheads


    sector_000 wrote: »
    The document linked to by the DeGiro notification only listed those Irish stocks. Maybe you should call your broker & ask. Post if you learn something useful.

    I have very few from the list
    I called degiro just now
    Sell or transfer before 15th Jan as normal

    DO NOTHING = options removed to buy or sell online, they become greyed out. If want to sell later you will need to submit a form via email for them to transact. Cost is €10 to sell online or sell via this email option..
    I might hold


  • Registered Users Posts: 851 ✭✭✭ bcklschaps


    jams100 wrote: »
    Are these just the Irish stocks effected?
    I'm thinking IAG and others might also be in there...IAG is on Spanish and London stock exchange

    I've never received any of these notifications from Degiro, strange

    There was a bigger list posted by Degiro a while back.... which included all dual listed shares
    ..ie. Shares listed in all European exchanges. IAG is on that list.

    Looks like you will need to switch your IAG from LSE to IBEX


  • Registered Users Posts: 689 ✭✭✭ jams100


    bcklschaps wrote: »
    There was a bigger list posted by Degiro a while back.... which included all dual listed shares
    ..ie. Shares listed in all European exchanges. IAG is on that list.

    Looks like you will need to switch your IAG from LSE to IBEX

    Yea I already own IAG on the Spanish exchange, was just posting that for others really.

    Own SSE and ABF (Associated British Foods), which are on the Frankfurt and swiss exchange respectively. Not sure what to do tbh, hold or move?

    Theres flip all information on the swiss exchange in relation to ABF anyway, like not even the price shows?


  • Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭ sector_000


    bcklschaps wrote: »
    There was a bigger list posted by Degiro a while back.... which included all dual listed shares
    ..ie. Shares listed in all European exchanges. IAG is on that list.

    Looks like you will need to switch your IAG from LSE to IBEX

    Anyone got a copy of that list??

    I can only see the list with the LSE / Irish dual-listed companies :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭ TimeToShine


    Sold out of my Ryanair shares today at nearly €17 because I didn't want to deal with the Brexit messiness, nearly 100% gain and I will most definitely be buying in again once things settle down.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 851 ✭✭✭ bcklschaps


    sector_000 wrote: »
    Anyone got a copy of that list??

    I can only see the list with the LSE / Irish dual-listed companies :confused:

    Unfortunately not.

    But its fairly easy to work out for yourself. In Degiro just enter the stock name (like you are about to trade it) and you'll see a list of the exchanges where its available. If its available in EU and UK ...and you hold the UK version, then you potentially need to take action


    **On a side note. Just to add to the confusion, there are quite a few US stocks listed in Frankfurt. Doesn't seem to be an issue holding US listed versions. It may be that USA and EU have an "equivalence" aggreement??

    I would never touch the FF exchange for US listed stocks..... poor liquidity/high charges are laughable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭ sk8board


    Has anyone used the free transfer option and sent an email to degiro?
    Still waiting for a response here, but it’s holidays in fairness.


  • Registered Users Posts: 699 ✭✭✭ justfortherecor


    bcklschaps wrote: »
    There was a bigger list posted by Degiro a while back.... which included all dual listed shares
    ..ie. Shares listed in all European exchanges. IAG is on that list.

    Looks like you will need to switch your IAG from LSE to IBEX

    ESMA posted updated guidance at end of October that EU ISIN stocks that traded in GBP on LSE wouldn't be subject to STO, hence the reduced list. All those Irish shares still on the list above still trade on LSE in EUR; some (e.g. Smurfit) trade in GBP so fell off the restricted list. (IAG trade in GBP on LSE as well btw).


  • Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭ sector_000


    sk8board wrote: »
    Has anyone used the free transfer option and sent an email to degiro?
    Still waiting for a response here, but it’s holidays in fairness.

    I got a response to my query from [email protected].
    They say "I can confirm if you request before the 15th there will be no charge of stamp duty or any other fee".

    I have just now emailed in a request to proceed with a transfer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭ sk8board


    sector_000 wrote: »
    I got a response to my query from [email protected].
    They say "I can confirm if you request before the 15th there will be no charge of stamp duty or any other fee".

    I have just now emailed in a request to proceed with a transfer.

    I got something slight different - and no response required seemingly:

    “Dear Investor,

    You request to have your position transferred to an EU exchange has been registered.

    Please be advised there will be no transfer fee associated with moving this position. This process can take 1-3 weeks to complete.


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