landlord fraud. who owns the house?

keewan

I'm taking my landlord to an RTB tribunal for illegal eviction - after 4 years.

He says his son owns the house but I spoke to his son who was not aware that his father had quoted him as the owner of the property - even forging his sons name on the tenancy agreement.

How do I prove ownership of the house to expose the fraud that my ex-landlord has committed?

wench

You can look for the property here (click log in as guest)
https://www.landdirect.ie/pramap/

If it is there, you can purchase a copy of the folio for €5 which will tell you who the registered owner is.

keewan

Thanks Wench.

Claw Hammer

The RTB will not enquire into issues of title. Don't flute around with the land Registry and waste €5. He is the person who held himself out to you as the landlord and he was the person who collected the rent.

keewan

Thanks Claw Hammer.
Yeah, the landlord is going to find it difficult to wiggle out of this one. I have evidence of him placing the ad, collecting the rent, and intimidating the tenant (me) out of the property. His son, who lives abroad... I met just once. When I mentioned to him that he was my landlord, he hadn't a clue, which means that the landlord forged his sons signature on the tenancy agreement. When I took as case with the RTB, the landlord uploaded this forged document as evidence and claimed the ownership was with the son.
I think he's in all sorts of trouble.
Using a document that you forged, as evidence in a case is bound to fraudulent... yes?

Claw Hammer

keewan wrote: »

Thanks Claw Hammer.
Yeah, the landlord is going to find it difficult to wiggle out of this one. I have evidence of him placing the ad, collecting the rent, and intimidating the tenant (me) out of the property. His son, who lives abroad... I met just once. When I mentioned to him that he was my landlord, he hadn't a clue, which means that the landlord forged his sons signature on the tenancy agreement. When I took as case with the RTB, the landlord uploaded this forged document as evidence and claimed the ownership was with the son.
I think he's in all sorts of trouble.
Using a document that you forged, as evidence in a case is bound to fraudulent... yes?

It is fraudulent and criminal.

sasta le

Very strange what were the advantages to the landlord

jimmycrackcorm

Can you prove that he forged his sons signature? It doesn't make sense if his son isn't aware. Perhaps the father was managing the house for the son, which would make him effectively an agent. If the son just delegated responsibility then either way it doesn't change anything. The son could turn around and simply tell the RTB, it was actually his signature.
What was the actual illegal nature of the eviction?

keewan

If the father stated in the RTB submission that his son was the owner, surely that would have to be proven. How can I find out who actually owns the house? Title deeds? Maybe the RTB do not care about ownership issues, but if a fraudulent document was used as evidence, then they might take issue with it.

The father and son do not have a great relationship, so there is no guarantee that the son will lie to protect the fathers criminal actions.

The nature of the eviction?... sustained intimidation over a short period of time. I was a long-term tenant of 5 years, was entitled to 6 months notice, I had to leave after 8 days because I feared for my safety. It was a bad situation.

Marcusm

keewan wrote: »

I'm taking my landlord to an RTB tribunal for illegal eviction - after 4 years.

He says his son owns the house but I spoke to his son who was not aware that his father had quoted him as the owner of the property - even forging his sons name on the tenancy agreement.

How do I prove ownership of the house to expose the fraud that my ex-landlord has committed?

Your landlord need not own the house to be your landlord. Under RTA he merely needs to be the person entitled to the rent as respects the dwelling. Absent any a priori notification to you that he was not the landlord I suspect that he would get short shrift arguing on those grounds.

rock22

keewan wrote: »

.......

The nature of the eviction?... sustained intimidation over a short period of time. I was a long-term tenant of 5 years, was entitled to 6 months notice, I had to leave after 8 days because I feared for my safety. It was a bad situation.

Surely a matter for the Garda ?

crusier

keewan wrote: »

If the father stated in the RTB submission that his son was the owner, surely that would have to be proven. How can I find out who actually owns the house? Title deeds? Maybe the RTB do not care about ownership issues, but if a fraudulent document was used as evidence, then they might take issue with it.

The father and son do not have a great relationship, so there is no guarantee that the son will lie to protect the fathers criminal actions.

The nature of the eviction?... sustained intimidation over a short period of time. I was a long-term tenant of 5 years, was entitled to 6 months notice, I had to leave after 8 days because I feared for my safety. It was a bad situation.

Do you pay your rent?

TimHorton

rock22 wrote: »

Surely a matter for the Garda ?

Landlord probably well connected. So no problem there.

Dempo1

Intriguing story and on the surface it does seem there's an attempt to circumvent legal rights here but I wondered what is behind this.

If it's a case no eviction was taking place, it wouldn't really be an issue who the owner of the property is. Infact the legal owner of the property is perhaps not relevant as the tenancy could legally be with the authorised agent of the property owner. For example there's literally 1000"s of tenancies between agents and tenants, not necessarily the legal owner of the property. There's an increasing number of property portfolio's being rented out on behalf of consortiums, limited companies , vulture funds etc and its highly likely tenancy agreements are signed between tenants and Agents rather than physical owners of the properties.

This said, it is curious and rather odd a father is claiming his son owns a property and in reality this particular aspect of the argument may go nowhere, I doubt a family schism will occur over a tenancy dispute to be honest. Allegations of forged documents etc have a very high burden of proof and in reality I see this as a possible criminal complaint which will succeed or not on evidence and if the Gardai deem this a civil matter or criminal.

The RTB will only look at the facts, tenancy agreement, any possible breaches, any legislation being circumvented etc and this assuming the Tenancy and Landlord are actually registered (another matter the OP may need to clarify).

keewan

Thanks for all the comments. I'm due to receive that result of the adjudication any day now. I'll report the findings back to this thread. Thanks again.

crusier

keewan wrote: »

Thanks for all the comments. I'm due to receive that result of the adjudication any day now. I'll report the findings back to this thread. Thanks again.

Did you pay your rent?

keewan

Yes I did pay the rent

crusier

keewan wrote: »

Yes I did pay the rent

That's good

Eircom_Sucks

more to thius than op is telling us

he's probably making all this bs up because he just didnt wanna move or couldnt find rent at his budget

something fishy i suspect

keewan

Eircom_Sucks wrote: »

more to thius than op is telling us

he's probably making all this bs up because he just didnt wanna move or couldnt find rent at his budget

something fishy i suspect

There are many complications to this story.
I tried to buy the house from the landlord but the sale fell thru and the landlord raged before deciding to get me out by intimidation.

bellylint

Eircom_Sucks wrote: »

more to thius than op is telling us

he's probably making all this bs up because he just didnt wanna move or couldnt find rent at his budget

something fishy i suspect

jebus man, you certainly have a coloured view there. There is nothing to support your opinion. Accusing the op of BS at this point says more about you than them.

crusier

keewan wrote: »

There are many complications to this story.
I tried to buy the house from the landlord but the sale fell thru and the landlord raged before deciding to get me out by intimidation.

This baffles me, if he was selling the property he has the right to ask you to vacate it. If he was selling the property to you surely the ownership of it was established. Is it that he didn't accept your low offer and now you've dug your heels in so he cannot sell it to anyone else?

keewan

He was selling the property to me but there was no exchange because the survey revealed too many problems so i pulled out of the sale. The price was agreed subject to a successful survey. He intimidated me out of the house, no written notice (after 5 years). That's why I'm taking a case with the RTB.

keewan

keewan wrote: »

Thanks for all the comments. I'm due to receive that result of the adjudication any day now. I'll report the findings back to this thread. Thanks again.

When was the adjudication hearing?

keewan

Adjudication hearing was over a week ago. The RTB tells me that there is a backlog of cases due to covid but it should be 2 weeks before i hear.

crusier

keewan wrote: »

He was selling the property to me but there was no exchange because the survey revealed too many problems so i pulled out of the sale. The price was agreed subject to a successful survey. He intimidated me out of the house, no written notice (after 5 years). That's why I'm taking a case with the RTB.

He disagreed with you on the survey. The deal fell through and you dug your heels in so he couldn't sell to anyone else. Move on, i hope the prtb see through it.

keewan

keewan wrote: »

Adjudication hearing was over a week ago. The RTB tells me that there is a backlog of cases due to covid but it should be 2 weeks before i hear.

Why did you ask here yesterday for help proving something in connection with your case if the hearing was over a week ago?