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  • 12-12-2020 5:04pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭


    The oldest system of timekeeping is the framework based on the rising of a grouping of new stars every 10 days with the dawn Sun, it one culture it is known as the Decans with 36 groupings with a 5 day period between the old and new year. In written form, it was represented by the brightest star Sirius -

    ".. on account of the procession of the rising of Sirius by one day in the course of 4 years,.. therefore it shall be, that the year of 360 days and the 5 days added to their end, so one day shall be from this day after every 4 years added to the 5 epagomenae before the new year" Canopus Decree 238 BC

    The first appearance of Sirius after being lost to the glare of the Sun is much older than the description above -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomical_ceiling_of_Senenmut%27s_Tomb


    In the Biblical texts, whether the infancy narrative of Matthew or the Book of Job, a star at its rising or the first seasonal appearance of a star designated a time but could not designate a particular place. Much like the older Egyptian calendrical framework was lost until the 3rd century BC then so too has this era lost the meaning of a heliacal rising or first seasonal appearance of a star.

    "When Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea, in the days of King Herod, behold, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying, “Where is the newborn king of the Jews? We saw his star* at its rising and have come to do him homage." Matthew

    "Have you tied cords to the Pleiades, or loosened the bonds of Orion? Can you bring forth the Mazzaroth in their season, or guide the Bear with her children?
    Do you know the ordinances of the heavens; can you put into effect their plan on the earth?" Book of Job 38

    This information takes two parallel tracks. The first track is putting the ancient observations in a 21st-century framework and how it differs from the Ptolemaic framework and disregards the RA/Dec framework of the late 17th century altogether. The other track is expanding perspectives beyond a very narrow narrative we inherit from timekeeping in the late 17th century up to our era.


Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    This subject matter is very niche and of doubtful merit in the archaeology forum.


  • Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭oriel36


    "This subject matter is very niche and of doubtful merit in the archaeology forum."

    The entire basis of human timekeeping, stretching back to remote antiquity, doesn't require my personal defence in this era as the physical and conceptual structures we inherit are ubiquitous in both a productive and destructive way. In short, it doesn't require a comment and people either go along for the ride or they don't with the actual principles which derive their foundations for the daily and yearly cycles from the rotational and orbital motions of our planet. It is impossible to discuss and consider contemporary astronomy without the ancient reminders of their understanding of those cycles and the monuments they left as a testament to that understanding.

    https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

    The change in position of the stars from left to right of the Sun forms the basis of a 'star rising' in the infancy narrative and in the creation of the calendar framework. Using a satellite tracking with the Earth around the Sun, we can now see what our ancestors saw in terms of the first seasonal appearance of a star and eventually into the creation of the calendar system. In the time-lapse above, that is the planet Mercury about to pass behind the central/ stationary Sun in a faster and smaller orbit seen from our slower-moving Earth. In a number of weeks, it will return travelling in the opposite direction and what our ancestors saw as direct/retrograde motion.

    https://www.theplanetstoday.com/

    Maybe you are correct that this material doesn't belong in an archaeology forum depending what archaeologists consider important, however, history is not a stagnant topic and intertwines with all productive endeavours like a golden chain linking one generation to the next. I well know, through 30 years experience, how dismal archaeology can be when considering how our ancestors approached their crucially important understanding of timekeeping for agriculture, festivals and so on.

    Do not mistake this reply as a complaint.


  • Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭oriel36


    Considering there is a solar eclipse going on today ( 14th Dec), it is worthwhile noting how our ancestors marked the period when the Sun is lost to the glare of the Sun each month -

    https://www.knowth.com/stooke/knowth4.gif

    Any commercial fisherman knows today that tidal variations are based on the moon phase or what amounts to the same thing - the position of the moon to the Earth in its month circuit and to the Sun. What is called locally as slack tides or strong tides would have been a feature of life on the river and Irish sea with attention given to the remarkable maritime journey of the kerbstones from Clogherhead to the mouth of the Boyne and from there up the river.

    I quite understand that archaeology is organised to suit a particular approach so this is not to everyone's taste, however, someone like me does not work with archaeo-astronomy but treats these ancient people as equals and in some ways far more perceptive than contemporaries. I suggest others do the same.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    oriel36 wrote: »
    Considering there is a solar eclipse going on today ( 14th Dec), it is worthwhile noting how our ancestors marked the period when the Sun is lost to the glare of the Sun each month -

    https://www.knowth.com/stooke/knowth4.gif

    Any commercial fisherman knows today that tidal variations are based on the moon phase or what amounts to the same thing - the position of the moon to the Earth in its month circuit and to the Sun. What is called locally as slack tides or strong tides would have been a feature of life on the river and Irish sea with attention given to the remarkable maritime journey of the kerbstones from Clogherhead to the mouth of the Boyne and from there up the river.

    I quite understand that archaeology is organised to suit a particular approach so this is not to everyone's taste, however, someone like me does not work with archaeo-astronomy but treats these ancient people as equals and in some ways far more perceptive than contemporaries. I suggest others do the same.

    For deeply meaningful and enlightening posts; thank you. It has taken my breath away. And yes to your penultimate sentence. Modern thinking often categorises and pigeon holes too much.
    THANK YOU.


  • Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭oriel36


    Graces7 wrote: »
    For deeply meaningful and enlightening posts; thank you. It has taken my breath away. And yes to your penultimate sentence. Modern thinking often categorises and pigeon holes too much.
    THANK YOU.

    Apologies for a few mistakes - It is the moon that is lost to the glare of the Sun (as it is presently) for a number of days and our ancestors marked that period in their calendar framework -

    https://www.knowth.com/stooke/knowth4.gif

    Paid a visit to Newgrange today on a sparkling morning with nobody around apart from the guides just setting up for their day. So although I didn't stand in front of the entrance as that is not allowed, it is such a special experience nonetheless.

    I visited the quarry in Clogherhead where the large greywacke kerbstones come from and there is a natural alignment on the Equinox as the cave faces East.

    https://imgur.com/8wx48U4


    Venus is gorgeous as it is about to end its morning appearance ( to the right of the Sun) and will travel behind the Sun in a number of weeks just as Mercury does presently. These things happen all the time if people choose to call into the NASA website along with using animation as a guide for upcoming events -

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlAytshDgJY

    https://www.theplanetstoday.com/



    There is a great opportunity to use contemporary imaging with the ancient timekeeping descriptions rather than consider it a niche topic but once again, it is not for everyone.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    oriel36 wrote: »
    Apologies for a few mistakes - It is the moon that is lost to the glare of the Sun (as it is presently) for a number of days and our ancestors marked that period in their calendar framework -

    https://www.knowth.com/stooke/knowth4.gif

    Paid a visit to Newgrange today on a sparkling morning with nobody around apart from the guides just setting up for their day. So although I didn't stand in front of the entrance as that is not allowed, it is such a special experience nonetheless.

    I visited the quarry in Clogherhead where the large greywacke kerbstones come from and there is a natural alignment on the Equinox as the cave faces East.

    https://imgur.com/8wx48U4


    Venus is gorgeous as it is about to end its morning appearance ( to the right of the Sun) and will travel behind the Sun in a number of weeks just as Mercury does presently. These things happen all the time if people choose to call into the NASA website along with using animation as a guide for upcoming events -

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlAytshDgJY

    https://www.theplanetstoday.com/



    There is a great opportunity to use contemporary imaging with the ancient timekeeping descriptions rather than consider it a niche topic but once again, it is not for everyone.

    There is a short film on the weather forum, " The 11th Annual White Christmas thread" that speaks of these things; "Behold the star"


  • Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭oriel36


    Graces7 wrote: »
    There is a short film on the weather forum, " The 11th Annual White Christmas thread" that speaks of these things; "Behold the star"

    There are two separate meanings to 'close' in a 21st-century astronomical sense.

    Jupiter and Saturn come close to each other every 20 years or so as the faster Jupiter overtakes the slower-moving Saturn as it did in the year 2000 -

    https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html

    The loop-the-loop motion was called direct/retrograde motion as represents both those planets falling behind in view as the Earth overtakes them.

    Jupiter was closest to Saturn a few months ago so what we are seeing today is a perspective seen from the faster moving Earth as Jupiter moves forward faster than Saturn, the space between the two planets diminishes. This is the second type of 'close'. Scroll the dates backwards to see what I mean -

    https://www.theplanetstoday.com/


    A star rising has a specific meaning in terms of the first seasonal appearance of a star so the infancy narrative designating a place has no meaning whatsoever.
    The real archaeology is in the preceding chapter of Matthew 1 and the Book of Kells illuminator seems very aware of its significance -

    https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0473/3125/products/PU-MD-08_1200x1200.jpg?v=1569572332

    Like much else, it is not everyone's taste, however, the power of these heritages is outrageous in terms of subtleties and nuances. It is why I love these ancient people.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    What did the ancient astronomers do when the sky was obscured at the critical periods?
    Clear skies are rare enough on this island and even more rare in winter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭oriel36


    I hope in future that those who research the past take into account the wonderful timekeeping traditions we inherit from antiquity in order for contemporaries to appreciate their surroundings and the annual milestones which go along with the natural changes due to the motions of the Earth in a Sun-centred system. As much as it is necessary to combine many disciplines in natural sciences then so it is with human history from the most expansive perspective -

    “Scientists still do not appear to understand sufficiently that all earth sciences must contribute evidence toward unveiling the state of our planet in earlier times, and that the truth of the matter can only be reached by combing all this evidence. ... It is only by combing the information furnished by all the earth sciences that we can hope to determine 'truth' here, that is to say, to find the picture that sets out all the known facts in the best arrangement and that therefore has the highest degree of probability. Further, we have to be prepared always for the possibility that each new discovery, no matter what science furnishes it, may modify the conclusions we draw.” Alfred Wegener

    It takes time to become familiar with the larger picture as Wegener understood so it has less to do with who first proposes an insight than it does the validity of the concepts themselves.

    As the Solstice and Christmas approach, the ancient monuments and writings stand as a testament to the ingenuity of humanity stretching back to remote antiquity, not just as an archaeological trajectory but almost as something that binds one generation to the next back through history. Some will adore the way timekeeping developed over the thousands of years and mesh it with contemporary imaging and time-lapse whereas for others it will seem remote and outside a narrow archaeological perspective. It is hoped that this will change in future.

    Merry Christmas to all.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    oriel36 wrote: »
    I hope in future that those who research the past take into account the wonderful timekeeping traditions we inherit from antiquity in order for contemporaries to appreciate their surroundings and the annual milestones which go along with the natural changes due to the motions of the Earth in a Sun-centred system. As much as it is necessary to combine many disciplines in natural sciences then so it is with human history from the most expansive perspective -

    “Scientists still do not appear to understand sufficiently that all earth sciences must contribute evidence toward unveiling the state of our planet in earlier times, and that the truth of the matter can only be reached by combing all this evidence. ... It is only by combing the information furnished by all the earth sciences that we can hope to determine 'truth' here, that is to say, to find the picture that sets out all the known facts in the best arrangement and that therefore has the highest degree of probability. Further, we have to be prepared always for the possibility that each new discovery, no matter what science furnishes it, may modify the conclusions we draw.” Alfred Wegener

    It takes time to become familiar with the larger picture as Wegener understood so it has less to do with who first proposes an insight than it does the validity of the concepts themselves.

    As the Solstice and Christmas approach, the ancient monuments and writings stand as a testament to the ingenuity of humanity stretching back to remote antiquity, not just as an archaeological trajectory but almost as something that binds one generation to the next back through history. Some will adore the way timekeeping developed over the thousands of years and mesh it with contemporary imaging and time-lapse whereas for others it will seem remote and outside a narrow archaeological perspective. It is hoped that this will change in future.

    Merry Christmas to all.

    Yeah but...
    No archaeologist will dismiss sound evidence for ways of marking the passage of time.
    No archaeologist will construct an enquiry with a preconception that earlier people were either inferior or superior.
    I’m growing weary of your repeated assertions that archaeologists are somehow narrow minded and you ignored a legitimate and genuine question on your subject matter.

    This is a a forum, not a soap box.

    Merry Christmas


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  • Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭oriel36


    slowburner wrote: »
    Yeah but...
    No archaeologist will dismiss sound evidence for ways of marking the passage of time.

    Merry Christmas

    This is a good news story that connects imaging from our century to the Newgrange and Egyptian societies. The foundation of timekeeping is based on a new grouping of stars rising every 10 days with the first annual appearance of the brightest star Sirius as the start of the New Year. It is also new evidence, if you like, that the Earth orbits the Sun as the stars change position from left to right of the central/stationary Sun or from a twilight appearance to a dawn appearance as our ancestors would have known it -

    https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

    The more recent astronomers like Ptolemy used a different framework where the Sun moved directly through the field of background stars ( birth signs) while the planets wandered. This Greek framework provided more accurate predictions within the already created calendar system and was used by the first heliocentric astronomers for modelling the structure of the solar system -

    https://community.dur.ac.uk/john.lucey/users/sun_ecliptic.gif

    The most recent is the late 17th-century RA/Dec framework which is generated from clocks (clockwork solar system) where the Sun also wanders through the field of background stars along with the planets -

    https://community.dur.ac.uk/john.lucey/users/solar_year.gif

    Our society too sees the Sun wind down in a spiral from the June Solstice to the December Solstice until it stops and starts to wind its way back up again after the upcoming Solstice with increasing speed through the Equinoxes (why a roofbox is only possible for the December Solstice and not the Equinoxes) but then again, in this era where celestial sphere pseudo-astronomers and their wandering Sun framework dominate, much of this information is entirely lost. It is also why archaeologists will not appreciate what our ancestors did and, other than predictions, the current framework is beyond inferior when using the comparisons between contemporary imaging (NASA C3 camera) and the reasoning of the ancient astronomers. This is not going negative but a consequence of archaeological evidence allied with 21st-century technology.

    If you are weary then don't read what I write as this is for people who are beginning to appreciate the exquisite reasoning our ancestors employed in constructing their equinox and solstice monuments. It is not every day that you have had the timekeeping framework explained to you for the first time as, much like Newgrange, this framework has been buried for thousands of years under less productive systems.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    I said that I am weary of your constant jibes at archaeologists.
    Do not tell me what I should or should not read.

    You still haven’t answered the question about what happened when the sky was not visible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭oriel36


    I took the time to go to Clogherhead and the headland which provided the kerbstones which surround both Newgrange and Knowth.

    https://imgur.com/8wx48U4

    It is here that I learned why the Newgrange builders created their monument on a hillside with just the right distance to an opposite hill. When the Sun appears on the next few days, weather permitting, it comes into view dazzling whereas at sea level it does not have the megawatts of brightness making a sunrise alignment at sea level impracticable.

    Timekeeping in antiquity is exquisite unless this era which follows a late 17th-century contrivance at variance with the references that created timekeeping in the first place including the calendar framework along with the more recent 24 hour day in tandem with the Lat/Long systems. In this respect, people who do not love the historical/archaeological narrative from antiquity will be barred from ever appreciating what our ancestors did.

    Newgrange, rather than the equinox monuments, is a working astronomical clock and it has much to instruct our society in terms of what is productive and what is deficient in our understanding of timekeeping and the motions of the planet. It is not for small and defensive people but an expression of an Irish heritage that points outwards to our surroundings rather than dwells on who is presently offended or not.

    Mod note
    The highlighted portion of your post is unacceptable.
    The value of your increasingly tedious, meandering and repetitive posts is under review in this forum.


  • Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭oriel36


    The information in this topic doesn't require a reaction, after all, it is using 21st-century imaging to shine a light on our ancestors and the physical monuments they left as a testament to their understanding of the daily and annual cycles. There is something more, it also shines a light on our understanding of the cycles from a moving Earth in a Sun-centred system.

    It is up to each individual to make the effort to engage at some level yet if all they can manage is to enjoy the new demonstration that the Earth orbits our central/stationary Sun. A 'star rising' has a specific astronomical meaning in antiquity in terms of the calendar system, however, in 21st-century terms as a star transitions from an evening to morning appearance, it demonstrates that the Earth orbits the Sun as the star changes position from left to right -

    https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

    Learning from our ancestors also modifies how we approach our surroundings and there is so much to explore and appreciate. I fault nobody, not from a point of grandstanding but because of such admiration for my ancestors on this island. There is nothing leaden in all this and coming off a year when many in society felt a need to exercise their generous spirit to help others along, this is how this topic should be accepted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,904 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    OP Fail Turing Test.

    Not your ornery onager



  • Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭oriel36


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8anbIH-XfPU

    I see these two people try their best to frame the alignment as the central chamber lights up, however, as Newgrange is still a working monument that links timekeeping with the motions of the planet, a number of observations are necessary to truly appreciate the monument itself and our understanding of the motions of the planet.

    Once again, it is not for everyone but for those open to inspecting the different frameworks involved.

    The Solstice alignment will continue indefinitely on the same day whether 5200 years ago, presently or 5200 years into the future. This technical argument is not only founded on what we see today but the compromises Copernicus actually made between the time he wrote his original work ( Commentariolus) and the time he wrote De Revolutionibus. He was originally correct but because he felt it necessary to alter his concept to suit the more recent Ptolemaic framework and specifically here -

    " The third is the motion in declination. For, the axis of the daily rotation is not parallel to the Grand Orb's axis but is inclined [to it at an angle that intercepts] a portion of a circumference, in our time about 23 1/2°. Therefore, while the earth's centre always remains in the plane of the ecliptic, that is, in the circumference of a circle of the Grand Orb, the earth's poles rotate, both of them describing small circles about centres [lying on a line that moves] parallel to the Grand Orb's axis. The period of this motion also is a year, but not quite, being nearly equal to the Grand Orb's [revolution]. " Copernicus, Commentariolus

    http://copernicus.torun.pl/en/archives/astronomical/1/?view=transkrypcja&


    Effectively, Copernicus is describing this motion of the North and South poles as an annual motion rather than one which occurs over 25,960 years -

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Earth_precession.svg

    I do not expect readers to know the intricate ins and outs of the topic due to unfamiliarity, however, the reasons why we show up on the same days at Newgrange as our ancestors is because the North and South poles are in the exact same position today in respect to the central Sun and the planet's divisor as they were all those thousands of years ago -

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OgLCH7jYp8&t=51s

    There is a lot to discuss yet until the historical development of timekeeping is put into a proper narrative then true appreciation of our ancestors and their monuments will remain out of reach. It also puts our society in perspective as to how much we care for the planet and the great cycles which make life possible. I believe people already know this themselves.

    There are no archaeo-astronomers, there are just astronomers.


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