Reasonably priced gravel steel frame?

CantGetNoSleep

Does such a thing exist at the moment? I'm talking sub 1000€, closer to 500

I recently picked up a Ridley Kanzo alu gravel but it's over 11kg when you add pedals, bottle cages, garmin mount etc (105 groupset, heavy Shimano wheels) so I don't think steel would be any heavier, and might be more comfortable. I'd probably swap the wheels while I'm at it. I did buy the Ridley because it was affordable so don't want to spend a bomb. Very little around second hand and this was the only thing that popped up, but I don't love it.

Would be for gravel and possible bike-packing use, I have winter and summer bikes for group rides.

Have a bike mechanic friend who is between jobs who would be happy with such a job I'm sure.

magicbastarder

Genesis vagabond or croix de fer?

lennymc

surly straggler (assuming disc breaks) possibly on sale somewhere

CantGetNoSleep

Both would do the job perfectly. One requirement I forgot to add is that I'd want thru axles to make it easier to swap wheelsets with a road bike if I needed. I can find them online but not immediately with thru axles.

A nice colour would also help, e.g. the Croix de Fer 30 from this year is among the nicest looking bikes I've ever seen. The Ridley is a browny / bronze colour which might be why I've never taken to it.

https://www.balfesbikes.co.uk/bikes/gravel-adventure-bikes/genesis-croix-de-fer-30-mens-gravel-road-bike-2020-in-green__7265

a148pro

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

but it's over 11kg when you add pedals, bottle cages, garmin mount etc (105 groupset, heavy Shimano wheels) .

Interested to know what is a reasonably achievable weight on a gravel bike? I'm assuming it probably has to be a bit more durable and therefore heavier? And bigger tyres will presumably add a bit.

I ask because I was disappointed at the weight of mine - 11kg, albeit including saddle bag, two bottle cages and standard pedals (not clipless or spd), on 37 gravel king sks. It's a 2018 diverge with 105.

Looking online the 2020 sworks model is 9kg with a dropper post. I suspect it's pretty hard to get under 10kg on a gravel bike?

CantGetNoSleep

Mine is heavier than I expected too (it is 10.8kg and typically add about 500g accessories to every bike - Ultegra or 105 pedals although planning to move to mtb pedals for gravel, bottle cages, speed & cadence sensors, Garmin out front mount, Garmin Varia rear mount, clip for a topeak saddle bag). I can live with the weight tbh but if I'm at 11kg+ I felt going for steel might be more exciting

CantGetNoSleep

Can anyone give a good reason (aside from divorce) why this shouldn't be on the way to me in tomorrow's post? Costing a bit over 700, but given the gravel market at the moment I'd hope to get 4-500 back for a very low mileage alu frame with 50mm tire clearance

It is beautiful no?

CantGetNoSleep

Weepsie wrote: »

Forget a link??

Tried to embed the photo but never seems to work for me. It's this one here

https://imgur.com/QbzaoyL

One reason is the 2021 model is a nicer colour imo, as is the Croix De Fer 20 in a really nice blue.

The 2021 30 though £1899 sterling with TRP mechanical discs????? They're having a laugh there surely?

https://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/genesis-croix-de-fer-30-vargn21050

There was a comparable Vitus on wiggle with a full grx groupset and 725 frame for similar money that looked like better value.

That said if it's just the frame you're after none of that matters.

Alek

The weight does not matter as much on gravel as vibration damping and general comfort... Unless we talk about cyclocross where you need to accelerate fast; but there are different bikes for this.

The last time I've weighed mine, it was north of 13kg with all the extra stuff :P

CantGetNoSleep

Deleted User wrote: »

One reason is the 2021 model is a nicer colour imo, as is the Croix De Fer 20 in a really nice blue.

The 2021 30 though £1899 sterling with TRP mechanical discs????? They're having a laugh there surely?

https://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/genesis-croix-de-fer-30-vargn21050

There was a comparable Vitus on wiggle with a full grx groupset and 725 frame for similar money that looked like better value.

That said if it's just the frame you're after none of that matters.

I'm swapping over components I think. Would only go for a full bike if I got a deal. There is one lower spec one near me second hand that is clearly stolen and nothing else. RRP of new bikes seems crazy and no discounts to be had in bike shops.

You can get some great deals on older framesets (sub 500) but they seem to have been slow to adopt newer standards, 12mm thru axles and flat mount disc brakes (just look at the cost of a set of DT Swiss adapters on another thread)

magicbastarder

the CdF *bike* may be a lovely colour, but genesis usually (or used to) paint the framesets a different colour to the bikes sporting the same frame. the 725 based frameset seems to be a yellow/mustardy colour not available on any of the full bikes.

and yes, genesis prices on full bikes have become laughable.

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

the CdF *bike* may be a lovely colour, but genesis usually (or used to) paint the framesets a different colour to the bikes sporting the same frame. the 725 based frameset seems to be a yellow/mustardy colour not available on any of the full bikes.

and yes, genesis prices on full bikes have become laughable.

Yeah seems to be the way of it, and the difference in price between that yellow 725 and the 12/12 725 with thru axel is something.

Whats the difference there? My non expert eyes see very little

https://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/genesis-croix-de-fer-12-12-725-frameset-vargn21100

https://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/genesis-croix-de-fer-725-frameset-vargn21090

John Hutton

Have you looked at Spacycles? They make good steel frames and are nice to deal with, dunno what impact brexit will have though

https://spacycles.co.uk/m11b0s143p4590/SPA-CYCLES-Elan-725-Frame-and-Forks

Alek

Have you looked at Spacycles? They make good steel frames and are nice to deal with, dunno what impact brexit will have though

https://spacycles.co.uk/m11b0s143p45...rame-and-Forks

The geometry here looks quite relaxed compared to CDF... I wonder what's the tyre clearance? At this price it's definitely worth turning a blind eye on their lettering

(note that Genesis framesets used to be quite often on 50% sale... I bought both of mine for approx. 350e new...)

CantGetNoSleep

John Hutton wrote: »

Have you looked at Spacycles? They make good steel frames and are nice to deal with, dunno what impact brexit will have though

https://spacycles.co.uk/m11b0s143p4590/SPA-CYCLES-Elan-725-Frame-and-Forks

I actually ordered the Genesis from Spacycles. A tiny bit over budget but think it will hold resale value better.

Bit worried about Brexit now that you mention it, hopefully they ship quickly

https://spacycles.co.uk/m11b0s143p4389/GENESIS-Croix-De-Fer-853-Frameset-2020

paul a newman

I have the Spa Elan in both Ti and 725, I run 37mm tyres and mudguards with no problem. Both are extremely comfortable to ride, both are very cheap. Paul McQuaid built both bikes up for me and couldn't praise them enough, great build quality and the paint job on the blue 725 is top notch. A friend in Audaxireland got the Ti 2 yrs ago and has put up a lot of milage on it with no issues

Large bottle small glass

OP what's actually wrong with Ridley?

IME it takes time to adjust to any new bike but especially a new style of bike.

I've only gotten used to my Genesis Fugio in last few spins. Changing out the heavy clincher mtb style tyres for nice Schwalbe tubeless and it made a huge difference.

While all my bikes are now steel, the idea that they are super comfortable and will dampen all vibration is mostly nonsense.

A sensible bike ridden on Irish gravel (which will be rough and mucky) should be cheap and strong. Light would mean very expensive and having to look at muck on your nice drivetrain

John Hutton

The SPA guys are great. I restored an old touring bike a while back, a Dawes galaxy, (and later converted it to an ebike) and when doing so I considered changing the old cantilever brakes for something more powerful and modern. I sent them an email asking their opinion on if anything they stocked would be better and gave my budget, they replied asking for pictures etc and long story short ended up telling me not to replace them as anything I replaced it with would only be marginally better and could cause clearance issues etc. Instead recommended better pads and a clean etc. I thought this was great service, most places would have just sold me something. It worked for them though as I ended up buying everything for my resto from them!

Their custom stuff is good. I got a great touring triple chainset from them for cheap (not light but extremely solid and well made) and their leather saddles are really good too, very similar to Brooks but cheaper. I have the sprung one on my brompton and the regular on my touring/ebike.

Now that my touring bike is now a touring ebike I guess I need a regular touring bike again... very tempted to get their wayfarer,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCH4JgFBI_8

Their steel bikes are old school, which is what you want from a steel bike.

Alek

the idea that they are super comfortable and will dampen all vibration is mostly nonsense.

Not "super" and "all", but make a definite difference on longer rides or even jarring descends.

I never got used to the stiff and racy aluminium Kinesis Pro 6, couldn't descend on it with confidence on gravel as the whole bike was jumping under me, but finally the frame broke and was replaced by springy Vagabond that goes down steady like a steamroller

Note its not necessarily a property of the material, but rather design and engineering - there are compliant alu and carbon frames, and stiff steel ones.

Fighting Tao

Frame: Ragley Trig €708 with the bike rack. I’d say that it can be bought cheaper.

cletus

I posted this video before, but it seems like it might be worth posting here.

Quick caveat, he starts the video by talking about anecdotal experience, only to go on and say that much of the time this is provably wrong

John Hutton

Generally speaking alu frames and forks tend to be stiff, and steel, particularly old tourers etc, have a lot of flex. This does make a difference in comfort. My Dawes Galaxy noticeably flexes when its loaded and I "shake" it when I'm not on the bike. While cycling its not massively noticeable but is very comfortable, even with narrow tires.

Alek

Quick caveat, he starts the video by talking about anecdotal experience, only to go on and say that much of the time this is provably wrong

Also, he focuses only on seatposts, tyres and vertical compliance, while the lateral compliance and handlebar flex also play an important role in overall comfort!

CantGetNoSleep

Large bottle small glass wrote: »

OP what's actually wrong with Ridley?

IME it takes time to adjust to any new bike but especially a new style of bike.

I've only gotten used to my Genesis Fugio in last few spins. Changing out the heavy clincher mtb style tyres for nice Schwalbe tubeless and it made a huge difference.

While all my bikes are now steel, the idea that they are super comfortable and will dampen all vibration is mostly nonsense.

A sensible bike ridden on Irish gravel (which will be rough and mucky) should be cheap and strong. Light would mean very expensive and having to look at muck on your nice drivetrain

Nothing whatsoever wrong with the Ridley - purely a case of it never being what I really wanted, bought it because it was the best (actually close to the only) thing I could find second hand in my size with something along the lines of the spec I wanted (gravel, 11s, hydraulic brakes) at an anyway decent cost. I'm hoping to swap the frame over to steel at a net cost of not too much more than 200-250€.

CantGetNoSleep

John Hutton wrote: »

Have you looked at Spacycles? They make good steel frames and are nice to deal with, dunno what impact brexit will have though

https://spacycles.co.uk/m11b0s143p4590/SPA-CYCLES-Elan-725-Frame-and-Forks

These Spacycles guys are actually great to deal with. Emailed me to offer to fit a headset and BB for £10 labour before they ship

CantGetNoSleep

Can anyone who has a CdF comment on sizing?

I'm reading on other forums that they size very big & looking at the geometry charts that does seem to be the case. I'm 1m78 so right on the top of what is recommended for a size M so not too worried

Alek

I'm 1.88m and L suits me well. Go for M, I'd say.

CantGetNoSleep

Croix de Fer is hopefully arriving Monday or Tuesday.

Will build it up with 105 in the beginning & an FSA 48-32 chainset. May change to GRX 1x eventually (although will keep the 105 shifters and calipers)

Looking for recommendations for wheels and a new gravel handlebar too. Currently toying between DT Swiss G1800 and Hunt 4 Season for the wheelset. No idea for the bars, first gravel but the one I have feels too narrow

CantGetNoSleep

Frame is here but I've run into my first problem - even though both frames are BSA BB, the old FSA cranks are 19mm so won't fit the new BB.

Want to get up and running by Christmas so it is either find a GRX 1x crank & long cage derailleur locally, or find a new 105 crankset (which would be easier but won't give me the gearing I'd like)

Would there be any harm in going with a 170mm crankset when I'm used to 172.5?

cletus

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

Frame is here but I've run into my first problem - even though both frames are BSA BB, the old FSA cranks are 19mm so won't fit the new BB.

Want to get up and running by Christmas so it is either find a GRX 1x crank & long cage derailleur locally, or find a new 105 crankset (which would be easier but won't give me the gearing I'd like)

Would there be any harm in going with a 170mm crankset when I'm used to 172.5?

I'd imagine you'd find it hard to notice a 2.5 mm difference. You could always raise saddle height a commensurate amount

John Hutton

Doubt you'd notice it with the right adjustment. Shorter cranks might be an advantage on a gravel bike too

CantGetNoSleep

Thanks for the replies.

I now have a beautiful bike shaped object but I've reached as far as I can without picking up a few bits.

Found a GRX600 46/30 crank an hour and a half drive away so I'm off to get that first thing in the morning. First day of my Christmas holidays so need to use it productively.

Aside from that the only two challenges I'm seeing is that the fork needs to be cut. Usually I don't cut the steerer tubes on my bikes and just leave two or three spacers (and this is what I'm going to do here at least until I've tried out the size a bit, but this is far too long. Don't have a saw in the house so will need to figure this one out, it's a steel fork so might not be the easiest to cut down.

I also need a Shimano screw for the rear disc brake and not sure where I will manage to find this (one of the bolts goes into the caliper so you need the right size for the frame + 160mm adapter)

I've left the cables and hoses attached to the bars from my previous build. If I'm lucky they will fit so I won't need to go near the shifters (especially for the hoses, i'll just fit a new barb and olive where it attaches to the caliper and do a bleed)

Alek

If you can avoid it, for the time being, don't cut the steerer. I've regretted it every single time, after some time.... Recently was when I wanted to set up a properly flared drop bar (Genetic Digest) that requires exactly that extra bit of the steerer that I removed.

And if it's long enough, stick a spare donut on it and ride away :P

I also need a Shimano screw for the rear disc brake and not sure where I will manage to find this (one of the bolts goes into the caliper so you need the right size for the frame + 160mm adapter)

If you tell me the length you need, I may find one in my skip bin and send over to you.

CantGetNoSleep

Alek wrote: »

If you can avoid it, for the time being, don't cut the steerer. I've regretted it every single time, after some time.... Recently was when I wanted to set up a properly flared drop bar (Genetic Digest) that requires exactly that extra bit of the steerer that I removed.

And if it's long enough, stick a spare donut on it and ride away :P



If you tell me the length you need, I may find one in my skip bin and send over to you.

On the steerer, I'm planning to cut it but still leave enough space for the five spacers that came with it for now. At the moment there is 12cm of steerer left above the headset. Do you think I'd need even more?

Thank you for your kind offer on the bolt, I am abroad though so with the current mess of shipping I will try to find one locally. Appreciate it though

Alek

12 cm is not that much, usually the stem takes 4-5cm with plus a couple of spacers underneath... If it's sticking out 3-4cm now, I'd leave it and wait a month or so to decide if its really needed or not. It will hurt eyes though

CantGetNoSleep

Yeah needs about 5cm off even with the five spacers. I don't have the tools to cut it so I've no choice for now. But I've a local "bike doctor" coming tomorrow to fit a set of mudguards on another bike (I gave up) so might get him to do it.

I'm off to look for the bolts for my rear caliper then I have a fully built bike. Just need to connect up the hoses and cables - and fit a set of tubeless tires to the DT Swiss wheels I picked up on the bargain alerts thread

CantGetNoSleep

Here she is, still need to connect up cables and hoses but not far off being rideable. Quite happy with how it turned out.

Still need to swap out the wheels, not sure if I will go for DT Swiss (GR1600 or G1800) or Hunt

[IMG][/img]https://imgur.com/a/PyobF5f

cletus

Looks good, man. Well wear

Alek

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

Here she is, still need to connect up cables and hoses but not far off being rideable. Quite happy with how it turned out.

Still need to swap out the wheels, not sure if I will go for DT Swiss (GR1600 or G1800) or Hunt

[IMG][/img]https://imgur.com/a/PyobF5f

Aah, a beauty in this paint scheme + tan walls!

(you're right, chop that steerer, its a health and safety issue the way it is now :P)

CantGetNoSleep

I finally finished this, although I'm still waiting for my gravel wheels and don't have a pair of MTB shoes at the moment so it is in road mode for the moment (well I didn't really finish it, I got lazy over Christmas and dropped it over to a mechanic to finish it for me).

Quite happy with how it turned out and the overall weight though (10.6kg without pedals so not much more than the alu Ridley from the first post). Depending on how it gets used (I have a good bike and a winter bike) I may swap out the fork for carbon if I ever see the Genesis fork on sale which would knock a kilo off.

Excluding wheels (which I already had and I've bought the gravel wheels with a voucher, and labour, it cost me 1300€ so I am quite happy with that). I had cancelled a titanium gravel bike from Decathlon to save money so made a decent saving in the end.

I'm right at the top of the advised sizing for an M for Genesis and I find this bike big. I'd advise checking out in person if possible if anyone else is thinking of one

https://imgur.com/a/CdMSjQN

cletus

Looks lovely. I especially like the colour. Well wear

Alek

Great looking build! I remember I got approx. the same weight with my 2014 CdF on the 5700 105 groupset and Hy/RD brakes. Well wear!

John Hutton

John Hutton wrote: »

Have you looked at Spacycles? They make good steel frames and are nice to deal with, dunno what impact brexit will have though

https://spacycles.co.uk/m11b0s143p4590/SPA-CYCLES-Elan-725-Frame-and-Forks

Well the impact is that they no longer sell or deliver to the EU.