Boiler is banging (or pipes around boiler)

Seregwethrin

Hi,

My boiler Flexicom 18sx, or the pipes right around the boiler is making banging sound. This started to happen more now when weather got colder, if this is not a coincidence.

I was able to capture a sample here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZDAOzYskzY
(more clear if you have earphones/headphones)

It happens when boiler is running and right after it runs like every few minutes.
At nights it's less frequent, a few times at least, if not every hour or so, but still waking me up multiple times every night.

Pressure is at 1.6 bar at rest and 2 bar when running. I tried to lower the pressure to 1.2 at rest but it's still happening.

I am trying to get my boiler servicer in but in the meantime I also want to ask here if there is anything I can do DIY to mitigate this to get undisrupted sleeps.

Thank you

Seregwethrin

So I called in a plumber and...
He sees the fuse box and says there is no on/off switch on it with fancy name, he has to disconnect the boiler tells me, in the middle of the winter, he disconnects the boiler and goes to B&Q to buy a fuse with switch and installs it and tells me the banging on the boiler is just pipes contracting...
70 euro for fuse switch :mad::mad::mad:

I really like DIY because difficult to find trustworthy "professionals".

boogerballs

Seregwethrin wrote: »

So I called in a plumber and...
He sees the fuse box and says there is no on/off switch on it with fancy name, he has to disconnect the boiler tells me, in the middle of the winter, he disconnects the boiler and goes to B&Q to buy a fuse with switch and installs it and tells me the banging on the boiler is just pipes contracting...
70 euro for fuse switch :mad::mad::mad:

I really like DIY because difficult to find trustworthy "professionals".

Is the 70e not the fee you paid for a plumber to call out?

jippo nolan

boogerballs wrote: »

Is the 70e not the fee you paid for a plumber to call out?

He done well getting a plumber at short notice,
All those years training as an apprentice wasted when you can get DIY expert.

Seregwethrin

boogerballs wrote: »

Is the 70e not the fee you paid for a plumber to call out?

No he didn't charge for call out fee that's why it wasn't too bad BUT he didn't even try to fix the issue I called him for.

Is it expected from a plumber if he sees the fuse doesn't have a switch, while he was NOT servicing it, he has to disconnect the boiler and cannot leave it on even in the middle of the winter..?

Odelay

Seregwethrin wrote: »

No he didn't charge for call out fee that's why it wasn't too bad BUT he didn't even try to fix the issue I called him for.

Is it expected from a plumber if he sees the fuse doesn't have a switch, while he was NOT servicing it, he has to disconnect the boiler and cannot leave it on even in the middle of the winter..?

The middle of winter?? Its ten degrees out side and from reading your post the boiler was only off a few hours at most while he went to B&Q. What did you want him to do? Come out, do nothing and charge you a call out fee?

Seregwethrin

Odelay wrote: »

The middle of winter?? Its ten degrees out side and from reading your post the boiler was only off a few hours at most while he went to B&Q. What did you want him to do? Come out, do nothing and charge you a call out fee?

So are you saying he just found something to do to charge me because he called out?

It was literally freezing whole week I was scrapping the frost off the car in the mornings.

Seregwethrin

I actually just learned it is my legal right to not to pay for a work I didn't ask to be done. Next time, I will keep that in mind...

boogerballs

Seregwethrin wrote: »

So are you saying he just found something to do to charge me because he called out?

It was literally freezing whole week I was scrapping the frost off the car in the mornings.

If that's what he done then yeah I would be annoyed too. If the fuse replacement was not related to the problem he was called out for then I'd say he was taking the pi55.

However, plumbers are flat out at the moment, I don't understand how you got one so quick and why he wasn't going to charge you for a call out.

If nothing else I would be happy that a qualified person checked over the problem and said its ok, the last thing you need is a boiler breaking or worse.

Seregwethrin

He didn't replace the fuse, he replaced the box only. I had this



The moment he saw that he acted like my life is in danger, even took the number of the plumber on the boiler saved with "cow boy" in his phone, wonder if he was just doing a show or he actually called them and asked how could they install that...

Telling me it is regulations, he has to disconnect the boiler, he disconnected it, tried searching for a switched spur in his van, couldn't find, went to B&Q brought this below in 1 hour, barely installed in 30+ minutes, only getting the fuse in took him 10+ mins (the same I had) because he was not opening the fuse lid fully and didn't do anything for my water hammering problem, nothing, just said it is normal and asked for 70 euro.

boogerballs

Sounds ropey alright, I'd nearly ask for a second opinion but that'll prob cost you another 70e.

At a minimum I would expect him to clarify what he's changing and what its going to cost before any work gets done.... otherwise it could be a blank check. Same as when you leave a car in to get serviced, always get them to clarify what work is going to get done.

Seregwethrin

Is this a regulation that if a plumber/RGI finds that unswitched spur he has to replace it?

boogerballs wrote: »

Sounds ropey alright, I'd nearly ask for a second opinion but that'll prob cost you another 70e.

At a minimum I would expect him to clarify what he's changing and what its going to cost before any work gets done.... otherwise it could be a blank check. Same as when you leave a car in to get serviced, always get them to clarify what work is going to get done.

I did ask for how much and he said 70 but I didn't understand properly what he is referring to and he hadn't checked the pipe sounds at that time so I let him get one and when he finished with the fuse spur he just said pipes normal and asked for the money.

astrofool

It is regulation, your gas can be shut off if it's not remedied, we had it noted on our old boiler (plumber servicing didn't change it at the time as we were replacing the entire boiler soon after, but maybe he should have). We got a notice a while later that if it wasn't remedied on next inspection, the gas could be cut off.

mickdw

Its certainly correct that it should be able to be isolated locally.
Now if he was servicing and then added the switched fitting, id be thinking good professional service but doing nothing for your reported problem and then going off on a tangent about the switch is abit much.

DGOBS

Yes it is regulation, but it's not a safety issue for the customer, its required to be a double pole fused spur for the protection of anyone isolating and working on the boiler.

Yes it should've been remedied, but would not warrant shutting of the appliance, a RGI Notice of Hazard A would have suffice (ie. gas left on pending a rectification), so correct procedure would be to change the spur and not issue a hazard notice where possible to do so.

In fairness the the RGI, €70 for a callout and place you spur wasn't exactly ripping you off either.
If the noise is from pipework 'clicking' as they heat through joist holes etc, nothing really the chap could have done for you either.

I did ask for how much and he said 70 but I didn't understand properly what he is referring to and he hadn't checked the pipe sounds at that time so I let him get one and when he finished with the fuse spur he just said pipes normal and asked for the money.

Your misunderstanding of what he communicated isn't really his fault either, if you failed to understand, ask questions.

I think your stringing up this tradesperson, but I don't see that he's done you over.

Seregwethrin

DGOBS wrote: »

Yes it is regulation, but it's not a safety issue for the customer, its required to be a double pole fused spur for the protection of anyone isolating and working on the boiler.

Yes it should've been remedied, but would not warrant shutting of the appliance, a RGI Notice of Hazard A would have suffice (ie. gas left on pending a rectification), so correct procedure would be to change the spur and not issue a hazard notice where possible to do so.

In fairness the the RGI, €70 for a callout and place you spur wasn't exactly ripping you off either.
If the noise is from pipework 'clicking' as they heat through joist holes etc, nothing really the chap could have done for you either.



Your misunderstanding of what he communicated isn't really his fault either, if you failed to understand, ask questions.

I think your stringing up this tradesperson, but I don't see that he's done you over.

Yeah I was already expecting a 50e call out fee so I don't mind the 70 with replaced switch but that's not my point. My point is the actual issue didn't get the attention.

The noise is not a click, it is a hammering noise quite strong. Like someone knocking on the door and not gently, and it comes from bathroom which is directly above the boiler. It does sound like coming from the boiler downstairs but upstairs the sound is much more intense.

Also, the issue wasn't there before. It just happened recently about when the weather got cold.

Most importantly the hammering sound also happens during night every hour or so while boiler hasn't been run for many hours.

If that wasn't happening at nights I wouldn't make it a big issue because during day time it's annoying but not harming my sleep.

astrofool

It's highly likely to be pipe expansion/contraction, if you can lift the bathroom floor and wrap insulation around the pipes (i.e. something that will stop it rubbing against the joists) that may help. Our old house had lots of clicking where we had bare copper, and we're lucky that the new house is PVC wrapped copper, where we hear no noise at all.

Seregwethrin

So I can feel the kick in my hand on the pipe below I'm touching. Felt a bit on the curved one directly above too but weaker.

I believe it is coming from the boiler with hot water through the bathroom where boiler is just below it, and bathroom is where the sound strongest, stronger than the hot press.

Is this normal? This was there before I had external expansion vessel installed as internal one was gone, then stopped with the vessel, but started to again recently.

It's such a strong kick, if it was just contraction could I have still felt it in my hand?

Dtp1979

Have you a solid fuel appliance heating water also?

Seregwethrin

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Have you a solid fuel appliance heating water also?

No, just the gas boiler, Flexicom 18sx. Don't even have electric heating of the hot water cyclinder.

TheChizler

Last place I lived in I had a water hammer in the boiler overpressure valve that started slow and infrequent and ended up like a machine gun, cause was the filling loop valve failing open. Is it a closed system? What's the pressure like?

Dtp1979

Ok. Chances are you have sludge buildup

Seregwethrin

TheChizler wrote: »

Last place I lived in I had a water hammer in the boiler overpressure valve that started slow and infrequent and ended up like a machine gun, cause was the filling loop valve failing open. Is it a closed system? What's the pressure like?

yeah when mine starts up there is a machine gun sound then it becomes infrequent but stronger knocks.

I have a filling valve, if that's the same as filling loop valve, and I use it and it works but it's manual, if pressure goes down I top it up.

If the difference between open and closed system is, closed system's pressure can go up above 1 bar and doesn't go out from an outside pipe, yes it is closed, pressure stays if I top it up.

I think this is my system, except filing loop is a filling valve in the hot press and with a balancing valve in the hot press as well.

Seregwethrin

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Ok. Chances are you have sludge buildup

I took out two radiators and before putting them in I cleaned them, and within the radiators I found lots of bad stuff came out.

They might also be in the pipes...

Is there an easy way to clean the system or should I try to ring some people?

TheChizler

If you have a filling loop you have a closed system yes. The fact that you occasionally have to top up pressure makes it sound like your filing valve is fine. What do you normally top it up to? Is the banging different when you do this?

Dtp1979

Seregwethrin wrote: »

I took out two radiators and before putting them in I cleaned them, and within the radiators I found lots of bad stuff came out.

They might also be in the pipes...

Is there an easy way to clean the system or should I try to ring some people?

The dirt is likely in the boiler heat exchanger snd throughout the system. It’s not a diy job. You’ll need to ring a professional but the chances of getting one before Xmas is near impossible I think.

Seregwethrin

TheChizler wrote: »

If you have a filling loop you have a closed system yes. The fact that you occasionally have to top up pressure makes it sound like your filing valve is fine. What do you normally top it up to? Is the banging different when you do this?

Yeah I tried lowering the pressure to 1.1 bar from 1.6 bar and the knocking/hammering sound didn't change.

I top it up if I take any rad out but pressure is also lost very slowly maybe 0.1 bar in every 2 weeks or so, I know there is a rare dripping leak at one of the rads happening time to time, I will wrap a tape around the connection to stop it. I will try that now actually. I hope there are no more leaks I haven't found. This is probably unrelated though.

I was thinking, would it be possible if the water flow from the boiler is too fast but the water cannot flow within the pipes fast enough, would that cause this?

Though this doesn't really explain why it is happening in the middle of the night, unless boiler is moving the water around time to time even at night (sometimes boiler makes some noise even when it is turned off like it is running but not really heating.)

Though at nights it is much less frequent than the day when the boiler is on and off by the Nest thermostat automatically.

Seregwethrin

Dtp1979 wrote: »

The dirt is likely in the boiler heat exchanger snd throughout the system. It’s not a diy job. You’ll need to ring a professional but the chances of getting one before Xmas is near impossible I think.

I will try to clean every radiator for now maybe it will help a bit.

Interestingly, I learned that one of the ground floor radiators should have a drain outlet but none of my radiators downstairs have them.

But the boiler has two pipes going outside. I wonder if the boiler has a safety drain... Because the plumber who came over months ago said without the expansion vessel the pressurised excess water was going out to the garden from the boiler from one of those pipes. He was also able to drain the system just in the hot press... I feel he let air in somewhere and that drained the system. That is still a mystery to me how did he do that...

Dtp1979

Seregwethrin wrote: »

I will try to clean every radiator for now maybe it will help a bit.

Interestingly, I learned that one of the ground floor radiators should have a drain outlet but none of my radiators downstairs have them.

But the boiler has two pipes going outside. I wonder if the boiler has a safety drain... Because the plumber who came over months ago said without the expansion vessel the pressurised excess water was going out to the garden from the boiler from one of those pipes. He was also able to drain the system just in the hot press... I feel he let air in somewhere and that drained the system. That is still a mystery to me how did he do that...

Ground floor radiators do not ‘have’ to have a drain. Don’t be worrying about how the plumber drained the system. It’s his Job to know, not yours.
If you’re regularly topping up the system then this explains why you have sludge and corrosion. The 2 pipes going outside are not drain pipes. One is for condensation and one is pressure relief.

Taking off radiators will do nothing for your problem, I can promise you that. Get a professional for your own sake.

Seregwethrin

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Ground floor radiators do not ‘have’ to have a drain. Don’t be worrying about how the plumber drained the system. It’s his Job to know, not yours.
If you’re regularly topping up the system then this explains why you have sludge and corrosion. The 2 pipes going outside are not drain pipes. One is for condensation and one is pressure relief.

Taking off radiators will do nothing for your problem, I can promise you that. Get a professional for your own sake.

First guy who came to service and install expansion vessel was so good, he knew I needed an expansion vessel over the phone without looking. He is unavailable, can't reach to him.

Second guy who came disconnected my boiler because my fuse spur doesn't have a switch and did nothing for this issue

So I am trying to get a professional in and I am happy to pay for the effort to get this sorted. But in the meantime if I can remedy this it will help a lot because it wakes me up every night multiple times.

Dtp1979

Seregwethrin wrote: »

First guy who came to service and install expansion vessel was so good, he knew I needed an expansion vessel over the phone without looking. He is unavailable, can't reach to him.

Second guy who came disconnected my boiler because my fuse spur doesn't have a switch and did nothing for this issue

So I am trying to get a professional in and I am happy to pay for the effort to get this sorted. But in the meantime if I can remedy this it will help a lot because it wakes me up every night multiple times.

By any chance do you have motorised valves?

Seregwethrin

Dtp1979 wrote: »

By any chance do you have motorised valves?

No, just a manual one turning off the rads and keeping only hot cyclinder heating.

Seregwethrin

Okay I have a good finding!
When I turned the lever for hot cyclinder-only heating the knocking sound is almost gone when boiler is at rest. I got a few but they were very rare and not as strong.

Does this still support issue could be the sludge build up in the system and in the heat exchanger?

TheChizler

Seregwethrin wrote: »

Yeah I tried lowering the pressure to 1.1 bar from 1.6 bar and the knocking/hammering sound didn't change.

Around 1 is fine, if it was 3 or 4 say you might have had a leaking valve letting in mains pressure, but looks like that's not your issue.

Dtp1979

Seregwethrin wrote: »

Okay I have a good finding!
When I turned the lever for hot cyclinder-only heating the knocking sound is almost gone when boiler is at rest. I got a few but they were very rare and not as strong.

Does this still support issue could be the sludge build up in the system and in the heat exchanger?

I’m not following you. Does the lever turn off the radiators or not?

Seregwethrin

Dtp1979 wrote: »

I’m not following you. Does the lever turn off the radiators or not?

Attaching the photo below. When I move that lever I am pointing, only the hot cyclinder heats and I got less knocks, almost gone.
I believe it stops the hot water going towards the radiators.

Also I tested while all system is heating with radiators, I closed a bit that red balancing valve at the mid-bottom and that also seemed to reduce the knocks. I believe it is open now 3/4 of a full turn only. But when it is closed this tight and when I move the lever to hot cyclinder only mode the system was making weird noises like someone emptied a bucket of water to ground, like lashing rain for a few seconds then later again.

I find this very strange and I am still curious if there is a sludge build up somewhere... Though the 2 radiators I cleaned were quite dirty, if the pipes are similar, definitely the system needs looking after. The house is 25 years old and was rented in the last 10 years, so I don't think it was looked after well.

Dtp1979

I don’t see any lever. But either way, it’s sludge. No easy fix I’m afraid. The best you could do is dose your system with MC5 and let it circulate for 2-3 weeks and then have a professional powerflush the system

Seregwethrin

Dtp1979 wrote: »

I don’t see any lever. But either way, it’s sludge. No easy fix I’m afraid. The best you could do is dose your system with MC5 and let it circulate for 2-3 weeks and then have a professional powerflush the system

Sorry I called it lever, just that yellow valve there I'm pointing.

I will try keep calling around to have it cleaned... I am pretty sure it's not cleaned over 10+ years if not more.

Thank you

Dtp1979

Seregwethrin wrote: »

Sorry I called it lever, just that yellow valve there I'm pointing.

I will try keep calling around to have it cleaned... I am pretty sure it's not cleaned over 10+ years if not more.

Thank you

I’ve seen systems 3 years old filthy. And systems 40 years spotless.
Try the mc5. Preferably 2 bottles but make sure your plumber knows this. Book them in for mid January

Seregwethrin

I am just back to searching for another person. Thank you for all the help. I will post back about the result.

Seregwethrin

So I poured in Sentinel X400 to clean the sludge. Will keep it for 3 weeks after 2 hour full run then drain the system 3 times.

Here is the sludge came out from the bathroom rad. 2-3 times of what you see there, kept coming out.
Do you think this is normal levels of dirt? Is running X400 for 3 weeks too long?



This is how I poured in by using the filling kit from B&Q.