Stonehenge like structures in Ireland prior to the norman invasion

trousers on backwards

i cannot read latin, the temple-priest(coin worshiping) classes of the world made sure that the youth of today would be ignorant of the history of this planet.

Gerald Barry or Gerald Cambrensis, who lived during the Norman invasion of Ireland wrote volumes on the geography and history of Ireland, in the Latin language. I have not read any of his works but according to Thomas Moore, in vol 1 of his history of Ireland, Moore states that Cambrensis mentioned that at least two stonehenge like structures existed on this island before the Normans arrived to plunder. One of these Henges existed in Louth(near Dundalk) the other in Kildare.

Now I did read, i think it was Edward Ledwich - in his antiquities of ireland, who mentioned that Cambrensis was made to recant or acknowledge that he had several errors in his works. These so called Henge like structures could have been included in what was recanted but i would be surprised if Moore was unaware of what Cambrensis recanted.

Has anyone out there read Cambrensis's works? or confirm or add weight to the possible existence on this island of Henge like structures before the arrival of the Norman pirates?

Sidenote - in Hallidays Scandinavian kingdom of Ireland, there is a drawing of Dublin bay with a Henge like structure placed over beside Dalkey hill

HenryCrun

A Google search on:


Origin Growth Religion stonehenge wikisource


gives a page from an English translation of Topographia Hiberniæ. Is this what you are looking for?

Mick Tator

I really don’t know if this is a serious thread….

It was mostly the religious who taught Latin in Ireland, it was their vernacular. Even I absorbed some and recall it.

Gerald of Wales is widely available in English translation. Read one to get an idea of the biased nonsense he wrote about Ireland and the Irish.

Halliday’s book is on the Scandinavian Kingdom of Dublin (not Ireland). The map with the stone circle in that book is a copy of Brooking’s map of 1728. There was a stone circle at Dalkey Common with a cromlech at its centre, but it was destroyed and used as material for the building of the Martello towers (so about 1800). FWIW there was another in Killiney, also now gone except for the cromlech, known as the Druid’s Chair (from which the local pub gets its name).

Dalkey Common is long gone, only a tiny bit remains.

RonanG86

trousers on backwards wrote: »

Has anyone out there read Cambrensis's works? or confirm or add weight to the possible existence on this island of Henge like structures before the arrival of the Norman pirates?

If Giraldus mentioned such things anywhere I'd expect him to have done so in the Topographia Hibernica. I found a online copy from York University in Canada if you'd like to peruse. (I presume this is legal being from a University's website): http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/topography_ireland.pdf

Now I should note the Topographia was edited at least once in Giraldus' own lifetime (after Henry II died and he re-dedicated it to John), and there have been multiple translations, I'm not sure how good that one is.

99% sure there's no mention of such a structure in his other book on Ireland, the Expugnatio Hibernica, since I studied it extensively several years ago. Also geography is not the subject of that book anyway. I read the Topographia too, but only for context and not as thoroughly. I don't remember anything about henges or stone circles in that, but I could just be forgetting.

trousers on backwards

Henry thanks for your response but that link isnt quite what im lookin for. ill follow up with more details within the post

trousers on backwards

Mick thanks for the follow up and the correction re Hallidays book. The thing about translations is simply that without knowing the original language i dont fully trust them. I dont know of any translations that offer multiple phrase interpretations. What is meant by this is that translators should offer the reader more than one interpretation of a phrase, discussion notes etc (especially around notable\controversial paragraphs\sentences. Without this step translators give an appearance of been infallible

trousers on backwards

Ill provided the paragraph from the book - the book is over a century and a half in age so i doubt there will be any copy-write issues

"The runinous remains of a circular temple, near Dundalk, formed a part, it is supposed, of a great work like that of Stonehenge, being open, as we are told to the east, and composed of similar circles of stone within"

a note follows the above sentance - "...according to Wright, of a temple or theater.".......seems to have been a very great work, of the same kind with that of Stonehenge, in England" - Louthiana"

".......and in the time Giraldus Cambrensis there was still to be seen, as he tells, on the plain of Kildare, an immense monument of stones, corresponding exactly in appearance and construction with that of Stonehenge"

a note also follows this last sentence but in latin
"Unde et ibidem lapides quidam aliis simillimi similique modo erecti, usque in hodiernum conspiciuntur. Mirum qualiter tanti lapides, tot etiam, &c Topograph Hibern c18"

trousers on backwards

Ronan thanks for that link - page 44 "Chapter XVIII: Of the Giants’ Dance, which was transferred from Ireland to Britain - " in this translation he mentions a structure still existing (a least in part) during his days near Naas, on the plains of Kildare.

The translation also indicates that "these stones" were transported to England during the time of Aurelius Ambrosius.

this is a bit vague, did "these stones" originate from the Naas structure and what was in existence during his time simply the remains or does this mean that stones similar to the Naas stones were transported to England

Note - i understand it is now thought the Stonehenge stones came from South Wales, but is this thought certain?

Mick Tator

trousers on backwards wrote: »

........ The thing about translations is simply that without knowing the original language i dont fully trust them. I dont know of any translations that offer multiple phrase interpretations. What is meant by this is that translators should offer the reader more than one interpretation of a phrase, discussion notes etc ........

In my experience translators take considerable care to get the right meaning across. I agree that sometimes there can be nuances but they are just that and very rarely alter the textual message. Stories are far easier to translate than technical work and Gerald was telling a story.

If you don’t trust translations you’ll just have to learn the language – James Joyce learned Dano-Norwegian just to be able to read Ibsen in the original. (Introibo ad altare doctrine, etc!:))

Gerald produced three editions himself, supposedly the Dublin manuscript is the closest to the original copy, while the one in Lincoln is the earliest known. They differ slightly, so there is room for debate, even before a translation.

However, IMO it an error to place too much credibility in an author who had a political axe to grind, an agenda to ingratiate himself with ‘the powers that be’ and wrote about fish with golden teeth, Wicklow denizens who are half man half ox and half-cow half-stag elsewhere. Not to forget the bearded ladies of (Limerick?).

RonanG86

trousers on backwards wrote: »

Ronan thanks for that link - page 44 "Chapter XVIII: Of the Giants’ Dance, which was transferred from Ireland to Britain - " in this translation he mentions a structure still existing (a least in part) during his days near Naas, on the plains of Kildare.

The translation also indicates that "these stones" were transported to England during the time of Aurelius Ambrosius.

this is a bit vague, did "these stones" originate from the Naas structure and what was in existence during his time simply the remains or does this mean that stones similar to the Naas stones were transported to England

Note - i understand it is now thought the Stonehenge stones came from South Wales, but is this thought certain?

He's referring to the tale in Geoffrey of Monmouth's History of the Kings of Britain that says Merlin used his magic to move the stones for Stonehenge from Ireland to England. The stones had been originally brought to Ireland by giants. Not sure how much of genuine historical value about Stonehenge's construction or stone circles in Ireland you can pick out of that one.

Merlin as we understand the character today was effectively created by Geoffrey of Monmouth by combining bits of Aurelius' legend with that of a mythical Welsh bard and scryer called Myrddin.

Shows you how long it is since I read the Topographia. I knew Giraldus was part of the same literary tradition as Geoffrey, but I forgot he referenced him so directly.

trousers on backwards

If Cambrensis was purely out to slay the inhabitants of this island why would he highlight for posterity their monuments? Structures like Stonehenge indicate a degree of learning

You have both ignored the site mention in county Louth. The one he referenced that existed near Naas was probably the foundation of one of the monoliths the still exist out there

Fish with golden teeth - not exactly an impossible thing to imagine. If you consider the supposed amount of Gold that had existed here; what did i read somewhere - Gold from this island was use\transported into Mycenae\Greece 1000's of years ago. This could also be a simple metaphor - ill blame the translator for that one, how else could one know if he meant it literally?

Cambrensis also mentions that this island contained a mixed bag of all sorts, to the extremes, people that is and their configurations. If he had an axe to grind why would he not simply describe all the inhabitants as barbarians, which is the word used by plenty of his predecessors to describe the irish

HenryCrun

It's a literal translation of "tres dentes aureos":

[…] inter alia sui prodigia, tres dentes, ut fertur, aureos habens [quinquaginta unciarum pondus continentes].

Among its other prodigies, it is reported that it had three golden teeth of fifty pounds weight. (Transl. Thomas Wright, 1863).