New palladio front door, leaking badly

Ush1

Hi there,

Got a new palladio front door fitted and it was leaking badly. The builder finished it with cement at the bottom front and came up over the lip of the door. Since it's in there is water coming into the house under the frame. Initially he thought it just needed more silicone at the joint but there was still pools of water coming in.

To check it was coming in still through the bottom I poured water from the outside and after a few seconds it would start seeping in.

He then tried sealing with silicone above the door along the reveal and in any gaps in the red brick he could see. After he did that the water was now water coming in above the door inside and dripping down!

He has said himself he doesn't know what the problem is but there was previously a porch there and we never noticed water coming in at all.

Please see pictures attached, any help greatly appreciated.

Ush1

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Ush1

Ush1 wrote: »

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NickNickleby

Can you put up photos of the frame from the outside, particularly at those points where the water is getting in?

Next time it rains, check the inside of the door frame where the door fits into the frame. This is to see if the water is getting in between the door and the frame, or the frame and the wall.

you must have been posting those photos while I was typing at 3 words per minute ::-)

There should be a silicone bead around the frame, where it meets the wall. Is there?

2nd edit to add, the bead on the outside, is what I'm referring to.

hurikane

That looks like a complete disaster. Did the builder buy the door and install it, or did a company who supplies doors and windows install it for him?

Ush1

Hi lads,

Water defo getting in between frame and wall, not door and frame.

There is a silicone bead the whole way around but I noticed along the bottom one it's like water is lodged in behind the silicone?

Same fella got the door and fitted it for us.

NickNickleby

Sorry Ush, decided to properly re-read your opening post.

Right, is it the case that he is now saying "well, I've done all I can..." . Or are you hoping for suggestions that you might make to him?

First point : there WAS a porch there. Can you get up and look at where and how that was fixed to the wall above the door - that could be part of the problem. I recently fixed a leaky roof in our conservatory (I'm no kind of tradesman, just a occasionally lucky DIYer). I had a few goes at it, before finally fixing Flashband to the wall and over the join where the roof met the wall. This might be the only solution over your new door, depending on what you find. By this I mean applying Flashband to the wall above the top reveal and bending it over the reveal, so no water rests on the reveal itself. Also, the band would have to be high enough to cover any holes left when the porch was removed.

As to the bottom of the door, how was the the frame installed? I'm comparing yours to my new porch door, which for all the world is like your hall door. In my case, the concrete floor of the porch is level, and the bottom of the door frame sits ON the porch floor, NOT in any sort of groove. Without the silicone bead, I'm sure it would be a visible gap right through under the frame. So obviously, my bead has been done properly, as there's not even a hint of dampness.

Now, if you're confident in the beading, I see two other potential problems.
Firstly, the side lights or panels, is it possible that the plastic bead running down the length of the panel is not properly fitted, and could water get in there? Or, and I think this is definitely a potential problem: those little vent things at the bottom of each side panel are very close to he ground, I imagine if there's rain blowing onto the front of the house, it could blow upwards into the frame. Mine are about 3cm from the underside of the vent cover to the sill on which the frame sits. Yours look a lot closer than that.

I'd be confident that someone who knows what he's talking about will come along with better suggestions, but mine are based on what I see here at home, and my own limited experience of dealing with problems.

Anyway, I hope this is some use to you. Good Luck!!

Four Phucs Ache

I see holes in the brick mortar above the door.1 filled with silicone and one open.

The silicone above the render frame is probably not making a good seal either?

Ush1

Thanks lads,

Nick, the porch that was there was like an inner storm porch so no changes were made to the external render.

I think your bang on with the problem with the bottom part. The outside level is slightly higher then the inside floor so even though it's sloped water is trickling back in behind under the frame. I think the concrete needs to be chiseled down to level with the inside floor and then sloped down from there.

I think I might have had a lightbulb moment with the sealing and then all the water at the top inside. Could be wrong but there is a steel lintel there and I was reading how they should drain with weep holes in the brick! I think he may have inadvertently blocked drain holes. I've removed as much silicone from there as I can. It's bucketing rain tonight so I'm gonna keep an eye on that. I think it makes sense.

To answer about getting him back to fix it, I don't think I want him back at this stage but that's a different story. My da is handy himself so can help with concrete and will go from there. Cheers lads!

Ush1

Anybody fit doors or windows? Would it be normal practice to put screws through the top of the frame and into the steel lintel?

blueskys

Not normal but have seen it done to stop extra movement.

Ush1

blueskys wrote: »

Not normal but have seen it done to stop extra movement.

Thanks, it looks like there is water coming down through the screws in the top of the frame. Reading up it looks like there is usually a DPC over the lintel to form a cavity tray so water in the cavity gets captured and drains out. I'd assume the screws would ruin that tray.

Ush1

Still have problems with this folks, at a bit of a loss. My da shaved down the reveal above the door on the outside to a slope and also the bottom of the door. Cut a section of the slab out inside the door above where it was dripping and siliconed against where the reveal and lintel meet as we could see that's where water was getting in. Thought it was fixed but heavy rain tonight and wet back in.

I can tell now how it's getting in above but the pools below have me stumped.

hurikane

Can see this going the way of the raffle car in Father Ted

NickNickleby

hurikane wrote: »

Can see this going the way of the raffle car in Father Ted

I had to smile, but poor old Ush must be losing the will to live.

I'd say its not beyond the realms of possibility that the water is getting into the frame at the top and running out at the bottom.

So, if that's correct, finding where and how its getting in is imperative. It has to be over the door in my opinion. So its on the outside. **

Now, if it was me, I'd use flashing temporarily, to hold some plastic sheeting over the door. And I'd be hanging it up as far as possible, up towards the window ledge above. and as wide as possible, certainly 20cm to either side of the door. Then I'd make sure it covered the top of the door frame and probably down about 20-30cms over the actual door. That'd be one ugly sheet on the front of your house, but I'd hope it would stop the rain getting in. At least THEN, you'd know where to concentrate. (I think that if this worked, you'd stop seeing the water at the bottom of the door frame as well). I know this is an extreme approach, but its pointless to work from the inside outwards. There's no point in trapping the water AFTER it gets in.

Of course, if you do this, and still see water at the bottom but not the top, you'll have found 2 problems, and solved one - albeit temporarily and horribly.

You have to start somewhere, and in the absence of better advice from those with more relevant experience, this is as good a way to start as any.

Good luck with it...

edit to add: ** of course its on the outside, but I meant not on the frame or where the frame meets the wall.

Ush1

Thanks Nick.

That's not a bad idea actually. I think you're right, I'm gonna forget the water at the bottom until I've sorted the top from the outside.

One thing I was thinking was is the door too far out? Like the windows are inset a fair bit more or should that not matter if all's good elsewhere?

NickNickleby

Ush1 wrote: »

Thanks Nick.

That's not a bad idea actually. I think you're right, I'm gonna forget the water at the bottom until I've sorted the top from the outside.

One thing I was thinking was is the door too far out? Like the windows are inset a fair bit more or should that not matter if all's good elsewhere?

Hi Ush,

I can't imagine being too far out would be a problem, as long as the sealing round the edges is done properly.

I discovered that my plaster work in my living room was 'hollow' when tapped. Eventually found that pointing in the brickwork outside had perished and crumbled away. In total, I filled in about 4 cms of pointing. Which is tiny and was not noticeable until I went looking for it. The damaged area inside was about 20x30cms.

10-10-20

Is that a double-leaf construction built in the '80s?
At a guess, you may be missing the DPM (damp membrane) which makes up the cavity-tray above the lintel. That serves to direct moisture from the outer-leaf brick (those bricks move moisture using capillary action) down towards the outer side of the lintel.
If the cavity tray is intact, then perhaps by adding silicon to the top of the revel, you're actually trapping the water in the mortar behind, causing it to pool and exit internally above the door.
Validation of this could be carried out using a USB endoscope through a drilled mortar joint.

See section "Cavity tray" in the following link:
https://www.buildingregs4plans.co.uk/foundation_floor_wall_3d_detail.php

Installing a cavity tray from scratch (as reference):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu8aCMcMGYc

Here's how to re/retro-fit a preformed cavity-tray in brickwork:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XhiE6gNI2U

If the issue is how I describe, rectifying the mortar joints as mentioned previously should be initially carried out, but you may also be able to use a waterproofing wash to prevent wicking through the bricks. Warning though, this can trap moisture in between the leaves if performed incorrectly.

10-10-20

As for the bottom leak, that appears to be caused by the lack of an external sill to bridge the concrete (with a drip-profile and DPM).
I have the same issue here myself. No amount of silicon will remedy it as the sill will flex and cause separation of the joint.
You might get away with removing the door and retro-fitting a sill by cutting the concrete, but that's messy.

NickNickleby

I have to say 10-10-20, those are fantastically informative posts. My own house is cavity block with (I believe) terrylene render, built 1971. Presumably I wouldn't have the same concerns as the lintels are concrete. My living room is a type of 'bay' window, in that there's a concrete canopy about 1m wide right across the front of the house and the window is place on the front edge of this canopy. My porch door is flush with the window and is similar to Ush's so my comments were based on that.

Question for you.... any water between the leaves runs out of the lintel tray through those little vent thingys. But what about the rest of the wall, does the water simply drip all the way to the foundation, or is there an escape route above a presumed damp proof course. Sorry its off topic for Ush, but it just occurred to me.

Ush1

10-10-20 wrote: »

Is that a double-leaf construction built in the '80s?
At a guess, you may be missing the DPM (damp membrane) which makes up the cavity-tray above the lintel. That serves to direct moisture from the outer-leaf brick (those bricks move moisture using capillary action) down towards the outer side of the lintel.
If the cavity tray is intact, then perhaps by adding silicon to the top of the revel, you're actually trapping the water in the mortar behind, causing it to pool and exit internally above the door.
Validation of this could be carried out using a USB endoscope through a drilled mortar joint.

See section "Cavity tray" in the following link:
https://www.buildingregs4plans.co.uk/foundation_floor_wall_3d_detail.php

Installing a cavity tray from scratch (as reference):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu8aCMcMGYc

Here's how to re/retro-fit a preformed cavity-tray in brickwork:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XhiE6gNI2U

If the issue is how I describe, rectifying the mortar joints as mentioned previously should be initially carried out, but you may also be able to use a waterproofing wash to prevent wicking through the bricks. Warning though, this can trap moisture in between the leaves if performed incorrectly.

Thanks for that. I think you're right, a cavity tray will have to be fitted.

Alternatively do you think moving the door further back would make a difference?

listermint

10-10-20 wrote: »

As for the bottom leak, that appears to be caused by the lack of an external sill to bridge the concrete (with a drip-profile and DPM).
I have the same issue here myself. No amount of silicon will remedy it as the sill will flex and cause separation of the joint.
You might get away with removing the door and retro-fitting a sill by cutting the concrete, but that's messy.

19mm quadrant stuck to the frame should direct water off the bottom of frame and away from the end of the door

chooseusername

In your photo that looks like a box lintel in the inner leaf.
There is probably no lintel in outer leaf; bricks laid on original wooden door frame.
The original cavity tray would have been laid from top of box lintel onto top of wooden door frame with proper drain holes.
Door installer probably stuffed this out his way.
Added to this, plastic door frame allowed bricks to sag.
Leaks at the top of the door should be addressed first.

Blowheads

It's going to be a messy job however you go about it. You'll need to ensure that the DPC is installed correctly and may even need to be replaced.
We had issues in the past where water flows down into a cup in the dpc which overflowed internally as opposed to sloped out and away. If ye had a dpc and it's punctured now then that's the place to start
Will be a pain also if no lintel in correctly, builders won't be too keen to go rooting at it

Ush1

Thanks for suggestions folks.

So builder came back out and we're fairly sure it's rain getting into the brick then down on to concrete reveal and then down on/in above door.

I have a feeling there was never a cavity tray as there are no drain holes that I can see at the front. I can poke through the holes in the catnic lintel and there is nothing there and feel the breeze blowing down from the cavity.

So the reason I think we never had the issue before with the porch is that it was slightly further back so clear of the reveal and brick and water coming down would fall out in front so builder has agreed to move door back to clear the reveal and so it will be under the steel lintel.

Not sure how the cavity is vertically closed on the other wall but I think it might be just blocks? I think normally doors and windows should be at the inner part of the outer leaf(where it is currently) but don't think this move should be a problem?

kravmaga

Hi OP,

Is there a warranty covering the door, there must be.

Im sure you have paid in the region 2-3 k for the Palladio door, they aren't cheap.

Where did the builder buy the door, mayb follow up with supplier/ warranty.

Is the issue with the door or the way the door was fitted by the builder.