Cavity Insulation and attic insulation

ted1

Thinking about getting this done. House built in 84, 3 bed semi. Quote of 1250

Anybody get this done, how did uou find the house afterwards?

Out heating bills is about 54 a month , thinking about getting it down to make the house more comfortable.

Also have a bit of mould on the bathroom ( only wall vent no fan) also some in bedroom , lots of condensation on window in morning. Did the insulation make a difference to humidity level/ coke bridging.
Thinking about adding A PIV or demand control be ventilation.
Willing to budget 2k if it improves air quality and comfort levels

MicktheMan

Do you know what insulation is there at present?
What is your airtightness like? (improving your insulation will have little effect if the house is leaky). Also, adding insulation may exasperate existing thermal bridging.
Looking to improve your ventilation is wise. My advice is not to do PIV, but MEV instead or indeed DCV.
All of these issues are related and impact on each other, so might be worthwhile having an independent survey done first to help prioritise / sequence your improvements.

ted1

MicktheMan wrote: »

Do you know what insulation is there at present?
What is your airtightness like? (improving your insulation will have little effect if the house is leaky). Also, adding insulation may exasperate existing thermal bridging.
Looking to improve your ventilation is wise. My advice is not to do PIV, but MEV instead or indeed DCV.
All of these issues are related and impact on each other, so might be worthwhile having an independent survey done first to help prioritise / sequence your improvements.

Existing insulation in walls is fibre glass in plastic. In attic it’s a thin lair of fibreglass.

Not really air tight. Built in 84. There’s a chimney that gives a draft at ground level. Also a big draft coming in from the vent at ground level for gas fire.

MicktheMan

ted1 wrote: »

Existing insulation in walls is fibre glass in plastic.

What do you mean by "fibre glass in plastic"
Can you describe the wall makeup from outside to inside.

con747

ted1 wrote: »

Thinking about getting this done. House built in 84, 3 bed semi. Quote of 1250

Anybody get this done, how did uou find the house afterwards?

Out heating bills is about 54 a month , thinking about getting it down to make the house more comfortable.

Also have a bit of mould on the bathroom ( only wall vent no fan) also some in bedroom , lots of condensation on window in morning. Did the insulation make a difference to humidity level/ coke bridging.
Thinking about adding A PIV or demand control be ventilation.
Willing to budget 2k if it improves air quality and comfort levels

Check out the grants available if going ahead https://www.seai.ie/grants/home-energy-grants/insulation-grants/
There are other schemes around for people over 55 with health conditions like Asthma and COPD around Dublin but I think it's just a trial at the moment.
https://www.seai.ie/grants/home-energy-grants/free-upgrades-for-eligible-homes/warmth-and-wellbeing/

sydthebeat

Sounds like a timber frame house?

MicktheMan

con747 wrote: »

Check out the grants available if going ahead https://www.seai.ie/grants/home-energy-grants/insulation-grants/
There are other schemes around for people over 55 with health conditions like Asthma and COPD around Dublin but I think it's just a trial at the moment.
https://www.seai.ie/grants/home-energy-grants/free-upgrades-for-eligible-homes/warmth-and-wellbeing/

In my opinion and experience, government grants are all well and good but they should not have a roll to play in the decision making process especially at the outset. The cause of the problem should be first established and if there is a grant for the solution, then great. Just because there's grant aiding available and your house/situation qualifies does not meant that the particular grant aided measure is appropriate of advised.

MicktheMan

sydthebeat wrote: »

Sounds like a timber frame house?

I thought it might be single leaf hollow block with internal dry lining but you could be right too. As you know in either case, pumping the "cavity" is a no no.

Markcheese

I thought attic insulation was always a good idea ?

Mind you a survey is not a bad idea anyway ...
Is ventilation needed usually calculated by the size of the house ,or the occupancy ?

homewardbound11

MicktheMan wrote: »

I thought it might be single leaf hollow block with internal dry lining but you could be right too. As you know in either case, pumping the "cavity" is a no no.

Thought the same . Not too many timber frames in 1984 .

ted1

Not timber frame.

The fibre glass is between the block and plasterboard. With a layer of plastic iver it.

I took off the vent to take a picture

Further inspection maybe I can’t get cavity filled

MicktheMan

Markcheese wrote: »

I thought attic insulation was always a good idea ?

It depends.
An example where it may not be the best idea is when there is already a layer of insulation present, say 100mm, and the plan is to add an extra 200mm. However they is significant air leakage in the house. Given the fact that the existing insulation layer cuts the heat loss by conduction through the ceiling by > 90%, in this case adding the extra insulation is a waste because the major heat loss mechanism is not conduction in the first place. You won't find many seai grant registered insulation installers telling you this:rolleyes::)
This is where the independent survey is valuable in that it will steer you on where to spend invest your money

MicktheMan

ted1 wrote: »

Not timber frame.

The fibre glass is between the block and plasterboard. With a layer of plastic iver it.


Further inspection maybe I can’t get cavity filled

Looks like hollow block so no cavity to fill.
I would though be concerned that the airtightness. Would be worth it, imo, to have a test done. Can have a massive impact when tackled properly including appropriate ventilation.

con747

MicktheMan wrote: »

In my opinion and experience, government grants are all well and good but they should not have a roll to play in the decision making process especially at the outset. The cause of the problem should be first established and if there is a grant for the solution, then great. Just because there's grant aiding available and your house/situation qualifies does not meant that the particular grant aided measure is appropriate of advised.

I think the OP should be made aware of the fact there are grants available and then find out the best and correct way to achieve his goal of making his home warmer and saving money in the process.

homewardbound11

MicktheMan wrote: »

Looks like hollow block so no cavity to fill.
I would though be concerned that the airtightness. Would be worth it, imo, to have a test done. Can have a massive impact when tackled properly including appropriate ventilation.

Our old house had the same setup . On a windy night you could put your hand over the electrical sockets on the external facing walls and feel the breeze .

ted1

A fellow came around today to measure up. Says he can cavity fill it.

Confused now. As it’s looks very much like this

https://passivehouseplus.ie/images/stories/magimages/Vol04-Iss06/0406-Breaking-The-Mould-TITLE.gif

Will get a second opinion

ted1

MicktheMan wrote: »

Looks like hollow block so no cavity to fill.
I would though be concerned that the airtightness. Would be worth it, imo, to have a test done. Can have a massive impact when tackled properly including appropriate ventilation.

This seems to a that they fill the blocks. ( not the site of the company I am talking too)

[snip]

chuck eastwood

Just reading through this and it's almost a mirror of my house...I think. 9 inch cavity block with little or no insulation. Plasterboard on the metal batton with no insulation at all in some spots. I'm currently flooring the attic with about 400mm but I'm not overly sure what to do with the edges, do I wedge insulation down in those gaps to stop the draught coming down from the attic? I do intend on getting a survey done but I've been let down 3 times in the last year so if anyone could recommend someone I would be grateful. Sorry OP for jumping in

chuck eastwood

ted1 wrote: »

This seems to a that they fill the blocks. ( not the site of the company I am talking too)

[snip]

I had these guys out. Talked the talk but there is do much thermal bridging in 9 inch hollow's I didn't follow up. Started looking at external insulation and sealing the loft properly instead

MicktheMan

ted1 wrote: »

This seems to a that they fill the blocks. ( not the site of the company I am talking too)

So if I understand correctly, you're getting the columns in the hollow blocks filled with some sort of foam.
It would be interesting to do a pre and post works air tightness test. (Interesting to me anyway:D)

MicktheMan

chuck eastwood wrote: »

Just reading through this and it's almost a mirror of my house...I think. 9 inch cavity block with little or no insulation. Plasterboard on the metal batton with no insulation at all in some spots. I'm currently flooring the attic with about 400mm but I'm not overly sure what to do with the edges, do I wedge insulation down in those gaps to stop the draught coming down from the attic? I do intend on getting a survey done but I've been let down 3 times in the last year so if anyone could recommend someone I would be grateful. Sorry OP for jumping in

It won't hurt to close off the gap with compressed fibre. Make sure it is continuous. Problem is that the wall is more than likely bare faced do will still leak to the inside.

MicktheMan

chuck eastwood wrote: »

Started looking at external insulation and sealing the loft properly instead

EWI is fine from an insulation pov but won't improve the air leakage much (regardless of what the sales blurb says)

Markcheese

chuck eastwood wrote: »

I had these guys out. Talked the talk but there is do much thermal bridging in 9 inch hollow's I didn't follow up. Started looking at external insulation and sealing the loft properly instead

Again I may be talking through my hat ,bu normally tisn't sealing up a loft a big no no ?

chuck eastwood

Markcheese wrote: »

Again I may be talking through my hat ,bu normally tisn't sealing up a loft a big no no ?

Poor wording on my part. I meant insulating and stil leaving a gap for air flow without leaving the gap between the inner board and block exposed

Interested Bystander

Do it and try to convince your neighbour to.
Its the lowest costing and best value measure that you can avail of to bring your BER up.

Interested Bystander

Also look I agree with Micktheman re looking into airtightness in the house, there may be other weak points and the best insulation on the market is pointless if there is a flow of cold air through tthe place

Treedays

Could the OP's house have a single cavity wall (usually front of house, 2 brick walls with a space in between them) and hollowblock on the side/back walls? That's where the confusion could lie. There's a good few houses especially in estates built in Ireland like that in the early 90s.
Maybe the quote he got to insulate attic and fill the cavity referred to a single cavity wall, €1250 seems about right for that.
Internal drylining or external wrap insulation would probably cost 5-10 times that quote.

Interested Bystander

I agree, in my opinion external wrap insulation is way overpriced

Markcheese

Interested Bystander wrote: »

I agree, in my opinion external wrap insulation is way overpriced

As in overcharging ? Or just it's more expensive than it's worth .. ?

Interested Bystander

Markcheese wrote: »

As in overcharging ? Or just it's more expensive than it's worth .. ?

Over charging.
There are plenty of companies out there who - like all these new PV companies popping up - are charging serious prices for a grant approved measure that should cost much less.
With EWI, the major cost is labour as the materials can be sourced for a relatively affordable price but companies love to lather it on making out that its very skilled work and a complicated process.

Calahonda52

Interested Bystander wrote: »

Over charging.
There are plenty of companies out there who - like all these new PV companies popping up - are charging serious prices for a grant approved measure that should cost much less.
With EWI, the major cost is labour as the materials can be sourced for a relatively affordable price but companies love to lather it on making out that its very skilled work and a complicated process.

What do you tell your dentist?

chuck eastwood

On the overcharging point. I got three fairly detailed quotes about a year and a half ago for external insulation on a standard 3 bed semi d ranging from €10500 to €14,2000. The most well known company gave me a detailed costed breakdown of the works and it came in at €10,700 net after deductions grants etc. Each itemized part just seemed over priced and I was surprised they supplied me with so much detail. Essentially hanging themselves out to dry.
About three days later I got a knock on my front door from a polish guy who had come with the guy who did the survey, this time on his own. Gave me his written quote coming in at €8200. Now I obviously didn't go with him because of insurance reasons and comeback if anything went wrong but if the quality of work was the same then that's €2500 profit the guys boss would have made for overseeing the polish crew. I was really put off buy such a large mark up and never went ahead with any of them

Stihl waters

chuck eastwood wrote: »

On the overcharging point. I got three fairly detailed quotes about a year and a half ago for external insulation on a standard 3 bed semi d ranging from €10500 to €14,2000. The most well known company gave me a detailed costed breakdown of the works and it came in at €10,700 net after deductions grants etc. Each itemized part just seemed over priced and I was surprised they supplied me with so much detail. Essentially hanging themselves out to dry.
About three days later I got a knock on my front door from a polish guy who had come with the guy who did the survey, this time on his own. Gave me his written quote coming in at €8200. Now I obviously didn't go with him because of insurance reasons and comeback if anything went wrong but if the quality of work was the same then that's €2500 profit the guys boss would have made for overseeing the polish crew. I was really put off buy such a large mark up and never went ahead with any of them

You're not comparing like for like, you're talking nonsense

chuck eastwood

Stihl waters wrote: »

You're not comparing like for like, you're talking nonsense

No need for dramatics fella. I've shared the pdf quotes with several others here since than who have far more knowledge than I (and probably you) who tend to agree that all original quotes are way over priced for the size of the house. To be honest lad you're not really in a position to make such a comment with no detals but I'd love to hear how you came to your conclusion based on materials and labour

Stihl waters

chuck eastwood wrote: »

No need for dramatics fella. I've shared the pdf quotes with several others here since than who have far more knowledge than I (and probably you) who tend to agree that all original quotes are way over priced for the size of the house. To be honest lad you're not really in a position to make such a comment with no detals but I'd love to hear how you came to your conclusion based on materials and labour

You compared an 8200 quote with a 10700 quote, they're not the same thing, you even said it yourself that one had no comeback or insurance compared to a professional outfit that would stand over their work fully insured

chuck eastwood

Stihl waters wrote: »

You compared an 8200 quote with a 10700 quote, they're not the same thing, you even said it yourself that one had no comeback or insurance compared to a professional outfit that would stand over their work fully insured

Exactly. I said it myself so there wasn't really a need for you to say it ? I clearly pointed that out. Jesus wept 🙄

Interested Bystander

Calahonda52 wrote: »

What do you tell your dentist?

My dentist (despite his expensive education and years of experience) doesn't tend to price gouge @Calahonda; this is despite the full waiting room most days I visit and the numerous overheads he has... but he still doesn't.

So I pay up and say my thanks to him and his nurse and head away happy because i'm good boy and I brush my teeth!!

Interested Bystander

Stihl waters wrote: »

You compared an 8200 quote with a 10700 quote, they're not the same thing, you even said it yourself that one had no comeback or insurance compared to a professional outfit that would stand over their work fully insured

So if the Polish boys can make enough of a profit on the job for €8200 that they risk their jobs to return and lowball their boss. What does that tell you?

And the bosses price was €10,700.
Insurance for the few days to a week to do the job is the equivalent of €2500 is it?

I'm wouldn't be so sure

chuck eastwood

Interested Bystander wrote: »

So if the Polish boys can make enough of a profit on the job for €8200 that they risk their jobs to return and lowball their boss. What does that tell you?

And the bosses price was €10,700.
Insurance for the few days to a week to do the job is the equivalent of €2500 is it?

I'm wouldn't be so sure

That's pretty much my point. Now this company on the four jobs near us that I have seen do produce quality work. I called into one house to ask if I could have a closer look and I can't fault the work. The polish lads were contractors to the company and from the short conversation I had with him the company don't directly employee any labourers/sparks etc so they are free to work for whomever they like.
All that said I'm still not convinced about the benefits of an outer wrap if I can't stop draughts getting down from the loft into the inner block or gaps

Stihl waters

chuck eastwood wrote: »

Exactly. I said it myself so there wasn't really a need for you to say it ? I clearly pointed that out. Jesus wept ��

How did you come to the conclusion they'd have no insurance or comeback if anything went wrong, surely a legitimate crew would have insurance and come back to fix any issues you weren't happy with?