Tadej Pogacar Tour de France win with unfair doubt?

jimbobaloobob

What are boardsies opinions on this article?
Justified or otherwise?

https://www.bicycling.com/tour-de-france/a34252569/tadej-pogacar-tour-de-france-win-unfair-doubt/

Eamonnator

I'll pass.

magicbastarder

i'm not well up on competitive cycling, and some of the other mods will have more experience to judge, but this is just a reminder of point 6 in the forum charter:

6. No speculation over potential doping offenders - Comment on information (including press articles) in the public domain is OK, but allegations must be verifiable with information that is in the public domain.

Pog didn't even beat the KOM set up there in previous years from what I recall which would have been set after 150km + of racing on a ROAD BIKE.

Inquitus

Deleted User wrote: »

Pog didn't even beat the KOM set up there in previous years from what I recall which would have been set after 150km + of racing on a ROAD BIKE.

He holds the record, 2 seconds faster than Aru, and an FTP effort from the start of the TT is arguably harder than 150km hiding in the peleton.

La Planche des Belles Filles
2020:5,9 km@8,5%---16:10---average speed 21.90 km/h(Tadej Pogacar)-RECORD
2019:5,9 km@8,5%---17:30---average speed 20.23 km/h(Thomas Pidcock) -Strava
2017:5,9 km@8,5%---16:12---average speed 21.85 km/h(Fabio Aru)
2014:5,9 km@8,5%---16:44---average speed 21.16 km/h(Vincenzo Nibali)
2012:5,9 km@8,5%---16:20---average speed 21.67 km/h(Chris Froome)

jimbobaloobob

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm not well up on competitive cycling, and some of the other mods will have more experience to judge, but this is just a reminder of point 6 in the forum charter:

6. No speculation over potential doping offenders - Comment on information (including press articles) in the public domain is OK, but allegations must be verifiable with information that is in the public domain.

Cheers for that. Had forgotten that.
I suppose my initial thought Was that in a time with so much cycling to report on this is a cheap slant for a magazine to speculate something different in the hope of being the first to draw question.

Personally I thought it was a great victory.

irishrover99

No mention of asthma in the article so obviously nothing to it😀.

sy

It's not that this young man hasn't shown previous form. I've been following him on Strava since his impressive wins at the Vuelta last year. His numbers and rides over the year were impressive and I had a sneaking suspicion that he might surprise a few people at this years TDF ( I didn't think he would beat Roglic but might have an outside chance). I think he is the real deal. Just glance at the past winners of the Tour de l'Avenir https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_de_l%27Avenir . Fignon was only 22 when he entered and won his first TDF and Bernal last year has shown that age is not a hindrance when it comes to exceptional athletes winning a 3 week Grand Tour. Evenepoel looks likes he's going to be another serious talent. Pogacar beat Roglic in his National TT etc etc. Shame on the magazine for printing this 'loaded' article.

at1withmyself

I think these articles are necessary while there is so much questionable performances in the sport and it's still being run by the same people who have convictions from doping. It'll be the same article again next year pending on the winner and the team.

We can't just blindly accept everything is OK when only this week a rider in the Giro was found doping. It sucks for cycling but it can only blame itself for the constant questions.

paddy no 11

at1withmyself wrote: »

I think these articles are necessary while there is so much questionable performances in the sport and it's still being run by the same people who have convictions from doping. It'll be the same article again next year pending on the winner and the team.

We can't just blindly accept everything is OK when only this week a rider in the Giro was found doping. It sucks for cycling but it can only blame itself for the constant questions.

Absolutely, 100%

Doc07

at1withmyself wrote: »

I think these articles are necessary while there is so much questionable performances in the sport and it's still being run by the same people who have convictions from doping. It'll be the same article again next year pending on the winner and the team.

We can't just blindly accept everything is OK when only this week a rider in the Giro was found doping. It sucks for cycling but it can only blame itself for the constant questions.

Unfortunately I agree, although this particular article isn’t great. I think the Pog and Rog show are the Tour was fantastic and I don’t accuse either of them of anything.
However, while much better than few years ago, pro cycling is still filthy and plenty of relatively frequent examples.
I’d prefer the focus to be on the performances but still important that doping gets discussed. Armstrong’s ability to bully and whitewash left an era of useless, sycophantic journalists and fan boards and any questioning writers were vilified and marginalised. Doping will thrive much easier in such an environment. Much like banking sector or financial rubbish that goes on in football, Cycling has many more clean years to go before it deserves to get default benefit of the doubt.

griffin100

at1withmyself wrote: »

I think these articles are necessary while there is so much questionable performances in the sport and it's still being run by the same people who have convictions from doping. It'll be the same article again next year pending on the winner and the team.

We can't just blindly accept everything is OK when only this week a rider in the Giro was found doping. It sucks for cycling but it can only blame itself for the constant questions.

The fact we are seeing riders transform from TT specialists to mountain goats and GT winners, unknown riders winning big races, entire teams riding away from the peloton, riders ‘doing a Landis’, directors emptying crashed rider pockets before ambulances arrive, and run of the mill riders becoming ‘super domestiques’ when they join certain teams does make me pause and think.

I’d love to believe that the group of young riders coming through are all clean and that it’s the increasing money and profile of the sport that’s attracting these athletes, but I’ve been a cycling fan too long to be that naive.

One picture stands out for me over recent weeks. Looks at Dans win this week and look at the faces of the first three over the line. Two are suffering and working hard, one is barely out of breath. To me that says a lot.

CramCycle

Before we all accidentally get ourselves ban, remember, even veiled references are treated references/accusations. Cúramach le do thoil.

Raoul Duke

griffin100 wrote: »

The fact we are seeing riders transform from TT specialists to mountain goats and GT winners, unknown riders winning big races, entire teams riding away from the peloton, riders ‘doing a Landis’, directors emptying crashed rider pockets before ambulances arrive, and run of the mill riders becoming ‘super domestiques’ when they join certain teams does make me pause and think.

I’d love to believe that the group of young riders coming through are all clean and that it’s the increasing money and profile of the sport that’s attracting these athletes, but I’ve been a cycling fan too long to be that naive.

One picture stands out for me over recent weeks. Looks at Dans win this week and look at the faces of the first three over the line. Two are suffering and working hard, one is barely out of breath. To me that says a lot.

This is an impossible year to judge cyclists. Some teams obviously got their training spot on and others not so. We'll see how great Sunweb will be next year.

Also, please don't tell me you're judging how much pain and suffering a cyclist is going through from their facial expressions? Compare Quintana and Alaphillip. One has a good poker face, the other nearly plays it up for the camera. Many a cyclist goes backwards with no change to their expressions.

bingobars

Yea. Dopers hold back a little so it’s doesn’t arouse suspicion. You can see it in their faces

CramCycle

Raoul Duke wrote: »

This is an impossible year to judge cyclists. Some teams obviously got their training spot on and others not so. We'll see how great Sunweb will be next year.

Also, please don't tell me you're judging how much pain and suffering a cyclist is going through from their facial expressions? Compare Quintana and Alaphillip. One has a good poker face, the other nearly plays it up for the camera. Many a cyclist goes backwards with no change to their expressions.

I look like I am passing a watermelon out my anus when I climb a hill on my commute, I look like the same sprinting for the line. Facial expressions are not good guides to effort.
Part of racing is pretending you are fatigued when you are not, pretending you are fine when you are dying inside.

brocbrocach

The surge of great Slovenian (and also Austrian) cyclists is an unusual phenomenon and that in itself in cycling is suspicious. When you add in Operation Aderlass and the links to the "godfather" of Slovenian cycling, Milan Erzen, it would tend to harden that suspicion in my head anyway.

MangleBadger

CramCycle wrote: »

I look like I am passing a watermelon out my anus when I climb a hill on my commute, I look like the same sprinting for the line. Facial expressions are not good guides to effort.
Part of racing is pretending you are fatigued when you are not, pretending you are fine when you are dying inside.

I have just realised that I am a grunter. No hiding that.

North of 32

I'm not sure I care anymore if professional athletes are doping or not.

I used to have great admiration for Paul Kimmage, David Walsh etc, fighting the good fight and all that. But the way some reporters go on about doping - there are bigger issues in life. I don't watch pro sport to set my ethical watch. I watch it because it's terrific entertainment and escapism. And I get the feeling that some reporters who are relentless in trying to expose dopers are trying to fill a gap or escape something in their own life.

I flip-flop a lot on my position now. Sometimes I think we should stop kidding ourselves and just let athletes have at it. Other days I think doping is a gross injustice to people who've battled honestly to compete.

To pick another sport, tennis, the world number 1 was demolished in the same fashion Rog was by a younger opponent at the tour recently and she went on to win overall in France too.

Was a complete mirror of the previous year between the pair.

paddy no 11

North of 32 wrote: »

I'm not sure I care anymore if professional athletes are doping or not.

I used to have great admiration for Paul Kimmage, David Walsh etc, fighting the good fight and all that. But the way some reporters go on about doping - there are bigger issues in life. I don't watch pro sport to set my ethical watch. I watch it because it's terrific entertainment and escapism. And I get the feeling that some reporters who are relentless in trying to expose dopers are trying to fill a gap or escape something in their own life.

I flip-flop a lot on my position now. Sometimes I think we should stop kidding ourselves and just let athletes have at it. Other days I think doping is a gross injustice to people who've battled honestly to compete.

Watch WWF if you want escapism, everyone else is entitled to clean sport

meeeeh

brocbrocach wrote: »

The surge of great Slovenian (and also Austrian) cyclists is an unusual phenomenon and that in itself in cycling is suspicious. When you add in Operation Aderlass and the links to the "godfather" of Slovenian cycling, Milan Erzen, it would tend to harden that suspicion in my head anyway.

I have no idea if Roglic or Pogačar are doping but the rise of Slovenian cyclists is not surprising. It happens all the time in one or other sport. It used to be rowers and it went on for a decade or two. Then you had skiers at one stage, ski jumpers at another. The popular sports change incredibly often, it could go from ice hockey to basketball, football, handball (the proper one not the one played here) or athletics, skiing and other individual sports. The physical performance is measured throughout primary and high school and kidsare drafted and encouraged into different sports. There are high schools with dedicated sports classes that adapt teaching programmes to training and competitions. Roglic would go to one of those because skiers and jumpers travel during winter months. A school mate of mine was an Olympic swimmer (she won some medals in European championships) and school would sanction her absence for the first hour in the morning every day to facilitate her training.

Cycling is currently popular in that part of the world and there were some lovely cycling routes created over Austria, Slovenia and other countries around. It also helps that you have hills or mountains on doorstep wherever you live.

As for Eržen, I don't doubt he is dubious as hell but he is also very quick to exaggerate his own influence on Slovenian or any other cycling. He would have very little to do with club where Pogačar started. I think the doping regulations and their implementation are not very good in Slovenia but there it's no state sponsored doping. It's more naive belief that ours are all clean than anything else.

Anyway the cycling will be popular for a decade or so and then everyone is going to move to basketball or something.

CramCycle

North of 32 wrote: »

I used to have great admiration for Paul Kimmage, David Walsh etc, fighting the good fight and all that.

Not sure I have any like for either of them, Walsh showed he was only in it to get one person in a (justified) vendetta but was happy to be like the rest of them when it suited. Kimmage is a good writer, and almost a good journalist with his dog with a bone attitude. He isn't a nice person though, which my simple mind finds hard to square away. I know neighbours of his in his youth, would start a fight with a tree if it dare shed a leaf while he was on his morning rollerskate around the place, or a guy I ride with telling me how about after a rider faceplanted in Phoenix Park, quite badly, Kimmage rolled past and started laughing and singing "another one bites the dust". Only started caring about everyone else when he couldn't make it anymore.

Pekarirska

Look at the Olympic medals per capita http://www.medalspercapita.com/ for the last ten years. Slovenia is in the top 8 every single Olympic year.

Jan Oblak is a goalkeeper for Atetico Madrid, Luka Doncic plays for Dallas Mavericks, Goran Dragic for Miami Heat, Anze Kopitar for Los Angeles Kings to name few top athletes.

Leon Stukelj was the oldest living Olympic gold medalist until he passed away 4 days before his 101 birthday in 1999.

The country has continental climate with winter snowfalls in the Alps. Warm dry Mediterranean summers at the Adriatic sea with sea temperature of 24C in July and August.

It's a small outdoor loving nation. Will never win world football cup. But will always have individuals that punch well above their weight.

mcgratheoin

at1withmyself wrote: »

I think these articles are necessary while there is so much questionable performances in the sport and it's still being run by the same people who have convictions from doping. It'll be the same article again next year pending on the winner and the team.

100% agree. Bjarne Riis is back in the peleton. Michele Ferrari is back FFS - and don't even get me started on the Richard Freeman tribunal - as ever it takes an external operator (FBI/Medical Practicioners etc.) who has no vested interest in retaining the status quo to actually shed some light on the warts and all reality.

Cycling is no outlier here though, IMO anyone who thinks top level sport is completely clean has their head buried wilfully in the sand. Individual sports (cycling and athletics) have always been easier to construct a "bad apple" narrative around so the authorities can protect the structures involved. Coverage of doping violations always focuses on the athletes rather than the teams that administered and paid for the programmes.

Macy0161

This whole season/ covid, makes comparisons to previous years a bit redundant for me.

You can say about Pogs back room team regarding doping, and then ignore Pieper's attention to detail? They'd practiced and practiced the bike change for the TT before and nailed that entire stage. A very interesting velonews podcast with Bobby Julich and Pieper if anyone is interested.

The head Doctor of UAE is Jeroen Swart - that'd be a pretty big game keeper turned poacher too.

It's professional sport - nothing would surprise me, but really not seeing the dots here. Yet.

Thud

Macy0161 wrote: »

You can say about Pogs back room team regarding doping, and then ignore Pieper's attention to detail? They'd practiced and practiced the bike change for the TT before and nailed that entire stage. A very interesting velonews podcast with Bobby Julich and Pieper if anyone is interested.

This is the same UAE that messed up Dan's diet* at last year tour
(*if that's what it actually was)
not to mention Aru
https://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/giuseppe-saronni-livid-with-his-own-uae-emirates-team-and-fabio-aru/
UAE don't strike me as marginal gains experts

Macy0161

Thud wrote: »

This is the same UAE that messed up Dan's diet* at last year tour
(*if that's what it actually was)
not to mention Aru
https://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/giuseppe-saronni-livid-with-his-own-uae-emirates-team-and-fabio-aru/
UAE don't strike me as marginal gains experts

Peiper wasn't around last year, as he was having Chemo.

G1032

Macy0161 wrote: »

This whole season/ covid, makes comparisons to previous years a bit redundant for me.

You can say about Pogs back room team regarding doping, and then ignore Pieper's attention to detail? They'd practiced and practiced the bike change for the TT before and nailed that entire stage. A very interesting velonews podcast with Bobby Julich and Pieper if anyone is interested.

The head Doctor of UAE is Jeroen Swart - that'd be a pretty big game keeper turned poacher too.

It's professional sport - nothing would surprise me, but really not seeing the dots here. Yet.

That podcast was excellent. Cheers!