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Suspend club member for this?

  • 20-10-2020 9:32pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 187 ✭✭ Maximus_1


    I'm PRO for our club and our assistant PRO has lodged a complaint and request for an investigation into an incident that occurred 2 weeks ago the evening of a County final. Two members verbally attacked the assistant PRO in a local restaurant that evening for a perceived slight they thought was made against them by the assistant PRO about a gaa matter earlier in the season. The lads (two club members) laid into him and basically called him every name under the sun. It's affected him badly and he has asked the club to investigate. Can this be done even though it didn't happen directly at a GAA match or training etc? If so what is the proper process if anyone is familiar with it? They were out of line completely by all accounts and imo if they had an issue a club meeting was the place to raise it not where they chose and the manner they chose.


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 542 ✭✭✭ Fred Daly


    If they were that agreved about the matter when it happened why did they not confront him then, they were probably full of beer felt big men the night in the restaurant surely the chairman other officers were there so call a meeting all were involved see what has to be said take what ever action has to be taken. As regards happening at a gaa match or training this was a club function so there must have been plenty of witness that heard what was said.


  • Registered Users Posts: 187 ✭✭ Maximus_1


    Thanks for that. Certainly there were witnesses however it was not a club function as such more casual than that. I've spoken to one of the parties accused and his opinion is that as it happened away from the GAA club its nothing to do with the club despite it being club related. I don't know myself. Our secretary is a good friend of mine and is trying to figure out what the proper process is to get all sides of the story and make a fair decision on how to proceed for all


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,260 ✭✭✭✭ kippy


    This is one of the reasons why it is very difficult for clubs and voluntary organisations get people to volunteer for roles.
    An awkward position to be in OP.


  • Registered Users Posts: 346 ✭✭ Francescoli


    Maximus_1 wrote: »
    Thanks for that. Certainly there were witnesses however it was not a club function as such more casual than that. I've spoken to one of the parties accused and his opinion is that as it happened away from the GAA club its nothing to do with the club despite it being club related. I don't know myself. Our secretary is a good friend of mine and is trying to figure out what the proper process is to get all sides of the story and make a fair decision on how to proceed for all

    I know of something similar that happened.Treasuer was abused in a pub by another club member. Similar was said, it didnt happen at the club so not an issue the club could take up.
    It was put to the person who was abusive it was either a matter for the club to deal with or the guards would need to be involved.

    Was dealt with in the club within a few days .


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,041 ✭✭✭✭ Collie D


    Maximus_1 wrote: »
    Thanks for that. Certainly there were witnesses however it was not a club function as such more casual than that. I've spoken to one of the parties accused and his opinion is that as it happened away from the GAA club its nothing to do with the club despite it being club related. I don't know myself. Our secretary is a good friend of mine and is trying to figure out what the proper process is to get all sides of the story and make a fair decision on how to proceed for all

    Yet he felt it was the time and place to raise club issues.

    I don't think the circumstances should make a difference.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 187 ✭✭ Maximus_1


    I know of something similar that happened.Treasuer was abused in a pub by another club member. Similar was said, it didnt happen at the club so not an issue the club could take up.
    It was put to the person who was abusive it was either a matter for the club to deal with or the guards would need to be involved.

    Was dealt with in the club within a few days .

    Yes this sounds similar. Indeed having spoken to some people who were there they actually said that it was borderline illegal what occurred never mind a club problem such was the ferocity of the abuse (drink played a part). That said the victim as such does not want to go that road but does feel it warrants an investigation by the club into the conduct of the two members. Its a tough situation for the secretary and chair we have and I'm merely trying to garner any advice and info I can for them to help


  • Registered Users Posts: 187 ✭✭ Maximus_1


    Collie D wrote: »
    Yet he felt it was the time and place to raise club issues.

    I don't think the circumstances should make a difference.
    Yes I agree but that's what I'm trying to find out I suppose
    Is it a waste of time looking into it formally if that is a valid excuse. It shouldn't be but God knows I am no expert on the rule book


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,449 ✭✭✭ Sheep breeder


    Maybe a word to the two boys from a player or club member not on the committee, to say to lads this is putting pressure on the committee and for the sake of club and the betterment of the club. maybe pull their horns in a bit and give an apology that might suit all and be the bigger men and move on.
    When lads reflect after the dust has settled they might want a simple way out and not be talked about in the club by everyone.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭ Uncle Pierre


    OP, I might be a little late with input here, but don't think anybody else has asked yet - when you say this occurred at a local restaurant, was it at something like a post-match meal organised by the club, for people involved in the county final? Or was it a case of some people just happening to bump into each other at a local takeaway, or something like that?

    If it's the first of those, then I'd be very much of the view that it was at a club function, and therefore the excuse of "didn't happen at the club, so the club can do nothing" wouldn't apply.

    Even if it's the second, the club can still take action. The general club constitution of the GAA, which applies if your club hasn't adopted its own separate constitution, contains this provision:

    5.11.1 The Executive Committee shall have the power to investigate any matter, and to expel, suspend, warn, fine or disqualify Members from Club activities for breach of this Constitution and Rules or the Official Guide or for conduct considered to have discredited or harmed the Club or the G.A.A.


    Two members verbally attacking another member in a public place, presumably with other people there who are not actually part of the club (even if only the restaurant staff), could certainly fall under the scope of "conduct considered to have discredited or harmed the Club".

    Tricky one all right as regards what exact action to take, but the answer to your main question is yes, action can be taken even though it didn't happen at a match or training session or similar.

    P.S. - even if your club has its own constitution, chances are high it's based on the general one anyway, so it probably contains that sort of provision anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 187 ✭✭ Maximus_1


    OP, I might be a little late with input here, but don't think anybody else has asked yet - when you say this occurred at a local restaurant, was it at something like a post-match meal organised by the club, for people involved in the county final? Or was it a case of some people just happening to bump into each other at a local takeaway, or something like that?

    If it's the first of those, then I'd be very much of the view that it was at a club function, and therefore the excuse of "didn't happen at the club, so the club can do nothing" wouldn't apply.

    Even if it's the second, the club can still take action. The general club constitution of the GAA, which applies if your club hasn't adopted its own separate constitution, contains this provision:

    5.11.1 The Executive Committee shall have the power to investigate any matter, and to expel, suspend, warn, fine or disqualify Members from Club activities for breach of this Constitution and Rules or the Official Guide or for conduct considered to have discredited or harmed the Club or the G.A.A.


    Two members verbally attacking another member in a public place, presumably with other people there who are not actually part of the club (even if only the restaurant staff), could certainly fall under the scope of "conduct considered to have discredited or harmed the Club".

    Tricky one all right as regards what exact action to take, but the answer to your main question is yes, action can be taken even though it didn't happen at a match or training session or similar.

    P.S. - even if your club has its own constitution, chances are high it's based on the general one anyway, so it probably contains that sort of provision anyway.

    Many thanks for taking the time to give such a detailed reply and no it's not too late as nothing has happened yet apart from a fact finding mission such as I am using this forum for now. Other people trying to use contacts to inform themselves. Club are to meet on it next week to discuss.

    That sounds like exactly the information that's needed. Certainly yes given the circumstances it could certainly be argued it has discredited or harmed the club/association. By all accounts it was an OTT and unwarranted attack and has caused much upset for the person on the receiving end. Basic bullying and intimidation is what happened and you'd like to think that just because it happened outside the gate so to speak that that doesn't give impunity. Certainly a fair minded person would like to think this person deserves some support from their club and not it be brushed under the carpet. Many thanks.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 187 ✭✭ Maximus_1


    Maybe a word to the two boys from a player or club member not on the committee, to say to lads this is putting pressure on the committee and for the sake of club and the betterment of the club. maybe pull their horns in a bit and give an apology that might suit all and be the bigger men and move on.
    When lads reflect after the dust has settled they might want a simple way out and not be talked about in the club by everyone.

    Thanks good suggestion. This has been tried I'm afraid and failed. Basically the person was laughed at.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,275 ✭✭✭✭ bucketybuck


    Two members of a club attacking the PRO of the same club due to a club issue that happened in the course of the clubs activities.

    How on earth is this "not" a club matter?


  • Registered Users Posts: 187 ✭✭ Maximus_1


    Two members of a club attacking the PRO of the same club due to a club issue that happened in the course of the clubs activities.

    How on earth is this "not" a club matter?

    Haha yea I hear ya. It of course is but some folks would prefer it weren't. Especially the accused. But to sanction a club member if that's the outcome our secretary and Chairperson are trying to learn the correct approach so it's watertight. I'm shall we say younger than them and I feel sympathy for them so helping them out gathering intel!


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,697 ✭✭✭✭ Strumms


    If I met a work colleague or boss out having drinks with his missus one Saturday evening,

    He’d been a lazy ****, not approved my holiday request and I’m genuinely generally pissed off with him, I decided to let him have it. I’m pretty sure i could be disciplined if I called him a fûckin prick. Because it didn’t happen during a shift or in the workplace wouldn’t enter into it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 542 ✭✭✭ Fred Daly


    Maximus_1 wrote: »
    Haha yea I hear ya. It of course is but some folks would prefer it weren't. Especially the accused. But to sanction a club member if that's the outcome our secretary and Chairperson are trying to learn the correct approach so it's watertight. I'm shall we say younger than them and I feel sympathy for them so helping them out gathering intel!

    Would someone grow balls deal with the situation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭ Uncle Pierre


    Maximus_1 wrote: »
    Many thanks for taking the time to give such a detailed reply and no it's not too late as nothing has happened yet apart from a fact finding mission such as I am using this forum for now. Other people trying to use contacts to inform themselves. Club are to meet on it next week to discuss.

    That sounds like exactly the information that's needed. Certainly yes given the circumstances it could certainly be argued it has discredited or harmed the club/association. By all accounts it was an OTT and unwarranted attack and has caused much upset for the person on the receiving end. Basic bullying and intimidation is what happened and you'd like to think that just because it happened outside the gate so to speak that that doesn't give impunity. Certainly a fair minded person would like to think this person deserves some support from their club and not it be brushed under the carpet. Many thanks.

    No bother. I hate to look like "the rules guy" but have held an officer position myself where I needed to know about this sort of thing!

    If you want the full document, the general Club Constitution is at Appendix 5 of Part 1 of the Rule Book - available at https://www.gaa.ie/api/pdfs/image/upload/wyb4qbqzii6vstod1ygg.pdf

    It starts on page 164, and the 5.11.1 provision that I quoted earlier is on page 168.

    Obviously it's up to your own club to decide what to do, but you definitely have the power to do something if you want to. And the only way the two lads could appeal any sanction is to go to a County Hearings Committee (as stated in 5.11.2), and draw even more attention to the incident.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭ feargale


    Maximus_1 wrote: »
    Thanks for that. Certainly there were witnesses however it was not a club function as such more casual than that. I've spoken to one of the parties accused and his opinion is that as it happened away from the GAA club its nothing to do with the club despite it being club related. I don't know myself. Our secretary is a good friend of mine and is trying to figure out what the proper process is to get all sides of the story and make a fair decision on how to proceed for all

    Suppose an official, say the ref of a game or a player or team official were attacked just outside the club gate on their way home from a match. Would you say that had nothing to do with the club because it didn't take place on club premises? Or take the notorious case in a Leinster county years ago of an official being locked in the boot of a car, not in club grounds. Is that not club business?
    The physical location of the incident is irrelevant. It related to affairs of the club. The injured party might or might not wish in addition to take the matter to the guards, but if they do, neither does that disqualify the club from dealing with the matter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭ finbarrk


    Recommend a 12 month suspension for both of them from the club at the meeting.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,245 ✭✭✭ LeoB


    The club executive must stand by the person attacked.

    No matter where this happened an officer of your club was verbally attacked in public place and this is wrong. That person is a volunteer and deserves the back up of club. The fact the person has complained makes it a serious matter. There are some good suggestions here and while it is awkward it must be dealt with as soon as possible.


    I had an incident in my club which was not dealt with involving my daughter who was verbally abused at a game. As a result for the first time since I was 10 I am not a member of my club, over 40 years. It was like a knife in the back for our family as I was on committee for in various roles for 30 years 1 as chairman but always coached and was still coaching up to last year. A simple apology would have sufficed and we would have moved on. **** happens.
    I will never coach again in the club and wont renew my membership as long as this person is still involved. My daughter is back playing but just football.
    It is a very difficult situation for the committee to be in but they must deal with it swiftly.
    We all say things by times which are not nice but we have to be big enough to apologize and move on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 187 ✭✭ Maximus_1


    Thanks again for all the input. Club meeting was held last night and 3 person committee setup to get a proper report done on what happened before any sanction handed out. It'll be sorted out ASAP now.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 187 ✭✭ Maximus_1


    LeoB wrote: »
    The club executive must stand by the person attacked.

    No matter where this happened an officer of your club was verbally attacked in public place and this is wrong. That person is a volunteer and deserves the back up of club. The fact the person has complained makes it a serious matter. There are some good suggestions here and while it is awkward it must be dealt with as soon as possible.


    I had an incident in my club which was not dealt with involving my daughter who was verbally abused at a game. As a result for the first time since I was 10 I am not a member of my club, over 40 years. It was like a knife in the back for our family as I was on committee for in various roles for 30 years 1 as chairman but always coached and was still coaching up to last year. A simple apology would have sufficed and we would have moved on. **** happens.
    I will never coach again in the club and wont renew my membership as long as this person is still involved. My daughter is back playing but just football.
    It is a very difficult situation for the committee to be in but they must deal with it swiftly.
    We all say things by times which are not nice but we have to be big enough to apologize and move on.

    Sorry to hear that. S**t situation. The lack of an apology the most galling bit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 554 ✭✭✭ White lighting


    What did the assistant PRO do to piss off the two lads? Are the two lads players on one of the teams?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭ Edgware


    It is a matter that should be raised through club channels not in a social setting.
    However there are often ignoramuses in clubs who have no manners and think that by acting the thug will get their way


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭ Uncle Pierre


    Am not sure OP will want to post details here about whatever it was that led to the incident itself, and nor would I expect him to.

    OP, for what it's worth, glad to see that your club decided to take action anyway, and would like to think that the bit I guided you towards helped in making that decision.

    Am sure everybody here will be curious about what (if any) action the club ends up taking against the people involved, but again, up to yourself whether you tell us or not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 554 ✭✭✭ White lighting


    Am not sure OP will want to post details here about whatever it was that led to the incident itself, and nor would I expect him to.

    OP, for what it's worth, glad to see that your club decided to take action anyway, and would like to think that the bit I guided you towards helped in making that decision.

    Am sure everybody here will be curious about what (if any) action the club ends up taking against the people involved, but again, up to yourself whether you tell us or not.

    Why not? OP was well able to state what the lads allegedly done to Assistant PRO surely in terms of fairness what led to the incident should be stated. Personally i would not be suspending any lad for something that happened outside of the club and its grounds. The assistant PRO seems to think hes bigger than he is demanding the club take action. i would be replacing him and telling him to grow and man up


  • Registered Users Posts: 187 ✭✭ Maximus_1


    Why not? OP was well able to state what the lads allegedly done to Assistant PRO surely in terms of fairness what led to the incident should be stated. Personally i would not be suspending any lad for something that happened outside of the club and its grounds. The assistant PRO seems to think hes bigger than he is demanding the club take action. i would be replacing him and telling him to grow and man up

    I don't mind posting it. It was with regard to overdue membership. The lads had only half paid and they thought through clubs note written by the person attacked earlier in the season that he was having a sideways swipe at them. It's a kind of annual drama in the club now how the 2 lads are about paying membership. They pay 50 and then basically have to be chased by some poor unfortunate for the second 50. They are wrong in that too and under the influence decided to take it out on one man and went to town on him. It got personal and vicious and well away from outstanding membership.


  • Registered Users Posts: 187 ✭✭ Maximus_1


    What did the assistant PRO do to piss off the two lads? Are the two lads players on one of the teams?
    One is a sub on the second team. One isn't a player at all just a very opinionated club member. Former underage coach. Does no actual work in the club now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 187 ✭✭ Maximus_1


    The club has finished investigating this after a report into it was compiled and presented. Conclusion was that the 2 lads were very much in the wrong and they have been suspended for 6 months. It's not going to effect them much apart from one of them might miss a few junior matches but it shows that the club won't tolerate that type of bevaviour inside or outside the gate. Decision was pretty much unanimous. Thank you to all those who gave their input.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭ Uncle Pierre


    Thanks for the update. Am glad to see the club took action, and the decision sends out a strong message.

    Also, for the man who posted this above:
    Personally i would not be suspending any lad for something that happened outside of the club and its grounds. The assistant PRO seems to think hes bigger than he is demanding the club take action. i would be replacing him and telling him to grow and man up

    All I'll say is that I'm glad you're not a member of my club.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,377 ✭✭✭ crossman47


    Thanks for the update. Am glad to see the club took action, and the decision sends out a strong message.

    Also, for the man who posted this above:



    All I'll say is that I'm glad you're not a member of my club.

    I second that.


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