Why were the Irish able to fully assimilate but black people weren't?

mr_fegelien

Not a racist question. I've always wondered why groups that were originally seen as sub-human (Irish, Italians, Jews) were after a few decades able to be seen as completely white and fully American yet blacks still struggled.

African Americans had a head start compared to the Irish (arrived in large numbers in the early-1700s whereas the Irish only arrived in the 1850s). After 100 years, Irish people were not considered a different race and Americans even elected an president with Irish history, JFK. Yet even after 300 years, African Americans are not really accepted.

Though there are no explicitly racist laws, AA's get on average way longer prison sentences than whites. They are AFAIK, the only group to really live in ghettos (even Hispanics don't).

Why is this?

magicbastarder

uhh.... because irish people aren't black?

i cannot see this thread going anywhere good.

edit: to explain my first comment. looking at a white person, you cannot tell they're irish. looking at a black person, you can tell they're black.
also, why didn't black people assimilate as easily is a *weird* question to ask when, well into living memory, it was legal to outrageously discriminate against them.

screamer

We’ve white Irish people in our own country who haven’t been able or who just haven’t assimilated , riddle me that......

seamus

The discrimination against the two different communities cannot be equated on a like-for-like basis because they come from very different beginnings.

The systemic racism suppressing black Americans was already well established when the Irish arrived en masse. Slavery was only abolished in 1865. The three-fifth's rule was only abolished in 1868.

But as we know, changing the law is only the beginning of ending discrimination and oppression. After these measures, US states moved to make it very difficult for black people to own property or to vote. Slavery may not have been legal, but they were not equal citizens in any sense of the word.

The Irish by comparison were never "sub-human", in the same way. Objects of ridicule, perhaps. Annoyances. But there was no widespread attempt to segregate them like they did black people.

From the perspective of your average white American, the arrivial of the Irish was like a boatload of fools from another town moving onto your turf. The emancipation was like your workhorses suddenly being freed and given the right to vote and have opinions. They may have accepted that slavery was now illegal, but it's a whole different matter to get them to accept the former slaves as equals.

riffmongous

Mod: I have serious doubts about this thread but I'm willing to leave it open as there might be a discussion there, particularly relating to the Crow laws and such which might be interesting, but anyone posting anything dodgy will be infracted, this is the only warning

Del.Monte

screamer wrote: »

We’ve white Irish people in our own country who haven’t been able or who just haven’t assimilated , riddle me that......

That's me - here since 1649 and haven't assimilated or gone away.

Notmything

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Not a racist question. I've always wondered why groups that were originally seen as sub-human (Irish, Italians, Jews) were after a few decades able to be seen as completely white and fully American yet blacks still struggled.

African Americans had a head start compared to the Irish (arrived in large numbers in the early-1700s whereas the Irish only arrived in the 1850s).

First clue: Irish, italians, jews tend to be white, black people not so much, easier to fit in

Irish people arrived in America by choice (even if it was only to escape poverty or starvation), You make out like African Americans had a choice, most didn't, slavery etc. But you know that.

You're just looking for a racist argument to get off on.

con747

They never encountered the Borg.:D
Another great thread from Mr Feg

Esel

con747 wrote: »

They never encountered the Borg.:D
Another great thread from Mr Feg

He's running out of forums in which to start threads...

BalcombeSt4

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Not a racist question. I've always wondered why groups that were originally seen as sub-human (Irish, Italians, Jews) were after a few decades able to be seen as completely white and fully American yet blacks still struggled.

African Americans had a head start compared to the Irish (arrived in large numbers in the early-1700s whereas the Irish only arrived in the 1850s). After 100 years, Irish people were not considered a different race and Americans even elected an president with Irish history, JFK. Yet even after 300 years, African Americans are not really accepted.

Though there are no explicitly racist laws, AA's get on average way longer prison sentences than whites. They are AFAIK, the only group to really live in ghettos (even Hispanics don't).

Why is this?

Not being mean but that's a stupid question mate.
Jews, Irish & Italian were not slaves for several cenutries in America, nobody had to fight a war on their behalf to free them & give them their rights, which where then cruely snatched away from them with Jim Crow laws which made them 2nd class citizens, which led to the civil rights movement of the 1950's & 60's. Jews, Irish & Italian had to face horrible racism & discrimination but it was not institutionalised, maybe some Irish were barred from pubs or clubs in the mid 19th century like some Irish Travellers today are barred from pubs in Ireland even if they were never in them before, but they still have constitutional rights.

And I would say Black people have assimilated into American society, Black culture is very mainstream in the US, black music, American sports have mostly black players, black TV shows, black politicians, black fashion etc.

You could ask why Irish Catholics never assimilated into Northern Irish society from 1921 - 1998, and a lot still haven't fully assimilated. Or why Protestants never really fitted in to Irish society until recently, I'm sure they felt uneasy living a state controlled by Bishops, I'm a Republican but Lord Carson was proved right about Home Rule being Rome Rule. It's only since the fall of the of Catholic Church (thank devil for that) in Ireland & the liberalisation of Irish society that Protestants have assimilated more easier into.

BalcombeSt4

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Not a racist question. I've always wondered why groups that were originally seen as sub-human (Irish, Italians, Jews) were after a few decades able to be seen as completely white and fully American yet blacks still struggled.

African Americans had a head start compared to the Irish (arrived in large numbers in the early-1700s whereas the Irish only arrived in the 1850s). After 100 years, Irish people were not considered a different race and Americans even elected an president with Irish history, JFK. Yet even after 300 years, African Americans are not really accepted.

Though there are no explicitly racist laws, AA's get on average way longer prison sentences than whites. They are AFAIK, the only group to really live in ghettos (even Hispanics don't).

Why is this?

That's not true, Irish people were in Amreica before 1850, as were Ulster-Scots & Irish Ulster-Scot who became known as Hillbillys.

Del.Monte

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

It's only since the fall of the of Catholic Church (thank devil for that) in Ireland & the liberalisation of Irish society that Protestants have assimilated more easier into.

That's a new one on me.

mr_fegelien

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Not a racist question. I've always wondered why groups that were originally seen as sub-human (Irish, Italians, Jews) were after a few decades able to be seen as completely white and fully American yet blacks still struggled.

African Americans had a head start compared to the Irish (arrived in large numbers in the early-1700s whereas the Irish only arrived in the 1850s). After 100 years, Irish people were not considered a different race and Americans even elected an president with Irish history, JFK. Yet even after 300 years, African Americans are not really accepted.

Though there are no explicitly racist laws, AA's get on average way longer prison sentences than whites. They are AFAIK, the only group to really live in ghettos (even Hispanics don't).

Why is this?

Weren't the Irish sent over before the slaves?

BalcombeSt4

Del.Monte wrote: »

That's a new one on me.

It is fairly new, starting around the late 80's or there abouts attitudes have slowly started changing - present has been better. And public figures like Graham Norton or David Norris have said as such.

It was a "reason" the right-wing loyalists used to destroy the O'Neill - Lemass talks, to ruin Sunningdale "Sunningdale is just a Dublin away" & Dublin & Monaghan was bombed to sap the political will out of the Cosgrave government which it did, they didn't have much will anyway with all the problems going on in this state atthe time.

And of course the infamous "never, never, never, never, never, never," speech were Paisley encouraged young loyalists to fight for Ulster which they after Michael Stone bombed & shot mourners at a IRA funeral, and people like Johnny Adair & Billy Wright followed Stones example& terrorizing killing over 100 Catholic civilians & about 5 active members from either the IRA or IPLO.

And if I was a Potestant living in the North during the 30's 40's, 50's, 60', 70s & 80' I would hate to live in a Bishop controlled Free State, plus I'd have no access to the NHS, I'd be living in a priest ridden, bog troting, Celtic Brigadoon.

salamiii

what about travelers

Wanderer78

magicbastarder wrote:

uhh.... because irish people aren't black?

As that wise man jimmy rabbit once said, 'we re black, and we re proud'!

pappyodaniel

Because it's a generational thing. The offspring be it kids, grandkids, great grandkids etc. will always be black thus prolonging the discrimination. The sons and daughters of the 1st generation of Irish or Italian will eventually become American or British or whatever country they've emigrated to.

Stovepipe

Del.Monte wrote: »

That's me - here since 1649 and haven't assimilated or gone away.

I heard a Protestant woman at a function say "We're here 400 years and still haven't married a native!", laughing aloud. A while later, when asked where she was going on holidays, she said,"the mainland", at which point her husband intervened and took the drink off her and hustled her out....

Stovepipe

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

It is fairly new, starting around the late 80's or there abouts attitudes have slowly started changing - present has been better. And public figures like Graham Norton or David Norris have said as such.

It was a "reason" the right-wing loyalists used to destroy the O'Neill - Lemass talks, to ruin Sunningdale "Sunningdale is just a Dublin away" & Dublin & Monaghan was bombed to sap the political will out of the Cosgrave government which it did, they didn't have much will anyway with all the problems going on in this state atthe time.

And of course the infamous "never, never, never, never, never, never," speech were Paisley encouraged young loyalists to fight for Ulster which they after Michael Stone bombed & shot mourners at a IRA funeral, and people like Johnny Adair & Billy Wright followed Stones example& terrorizing killing over 100 Catholic civilians & about 5 active members from either the IRA or IPLO.

And if I was a Potestant living in the North during the 30's 40's, 50's, 60', 70s & 80' I would hate to live in a Bishop controlled Free State, plus I'd have no access to the NHS, I'd be living in a priest ridden, bog troting, Celtic Brigadoon.

I agree completely. I have quite a few Protestant friends here in Wicklow and beyond and some have said that there are still, to this day, times when you have to keep a low profile, ie, don't let on that you're a Prod, to the point that I had no idea that some of them were Protestants at all,whereas I have always known who were Catholics around me. A friend from another Southern county bemoaned a certain well-known former politician/media personality for his constant, controversial appearances in the media, saying, "he's put his head above the parapet and will get it shot off", which duly happened (metaphorically). So, they learn from an early age to be discrete.

V8 Interceptor

mr_fegelien wrote: »

African Americans had a head start compared to the Irish (arrived in large numbers in the early-1700s whereas the Irish only arrived in the 1850s).

The Irish, mainly Protestants, went over in big numbers in the 1700's.