Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Supersonic for the people

Options
  • 08-10-2020 9:09am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭


    Boom rolls out its XB-1 civilian supersonic testbed.

    Good looking beast.
    201007111339-boom-demonstrator--xb-1-hangar-1-.jpg

    Going for test flights later this year to feed a scale up programme for a supersonic airliner.

    Interesting design features, not least of which is the dorsal engine and air intake. The intakes a very reminiscent of the likes of the F-14 and F-15 fighters.

    Extensive use of carbon composite in the airframe deals with stresses and heat better than either titanium or aluminium alloys. Overall, apart from the no.2 engine, it bears a strong resemblance to the Northrop F-5/20 series airframe which has served NASA as a testbed for decades.

    I wonder what the deep stall characteristics are, and how that affects the no.2 lump? Looks like it might be limited in high AoA, but for a civilian aircraft

    Great to see such work taking place.


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭lintdrummer


    All looks very promising but what I was looking for throughout the 45 minute video was any indication of noise and solutions to that problem. Apart from the sustainability guy who literally just mentioned it, they didn't talk about it at all.
    That's a red flag for me. If you can't solve the problem of the sonic boom, you can't travel supersonic overland which makes a lot of their claims and promises null and void.


  • Registered Users Posts: 876 ✭✭✭HTCOne


    I wish them luck. Airlines won't have much disposable income to spend in the next few years, so they'll likely need the super rich and ME3 to fill the necessary orders.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭Lorddrakul


    All looks very promising but what I was looking for throughout the 45 minute video was any indication of noise and solutions to that problem. Apart from the sustainability guy who literally just mentioned it, they didn't talk about it at all.
    That's a red flag for me. If you can't solve the problem of the sonic boom, you can't travel supersonic overland which makes a lot of their claims and promises null and void.

    That's a good point.

    It does bear a little resemblance to the NASA 'no boom' X-59 testbed, but not so much as to say it is going in the same direction for minimisation of boom effects.

    x59_plate_002_wip_-_copy.jpg

    The sustainability thing seemed to be more about the engine's ability to burn a mixed or pure bio-fuel without loss of performance.

    Hmm, watch this space. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭Turbulent Bill


    Business travel (their main market?) has evaporated with Covid-19, and I wonder how much of this will come back once people get used to virtual meetings. That said, who doesn't love supersonic stuff?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,859 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    Business travel (their main market?) has evaporated with Covid-19, and I wonder how much of this will come back once people get used to virtual meetings. That said, who doesn't love supersonic stuff?

    Funnily I was chatting recently to an F/O who flies for AirX (similar to NetJets)
    He said they are very busy. I'm guessing with the slump in actual frequency those who used to fly 1st are now moving up into the flexible private jet business.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    Business jets are flat out. I have to echo tenger's post; I have a friend who was furloughed from one of the big bizjet companies and recalled after a few weeks, as they could not keepup with demand.Apart from that, the larger modern business jets can happily cruise at such high speeds,that are near Mach 1 anyway, that it makes no worthwhile difference to the journey times.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,716 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    You only have to look at Flightradar to see how many bizjets are in the skies over Europe on any day, and how this has been the case now for months.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭Lorddrakul


    Have to agree.

    As we live with COVID-19, it is likely to be the ultra-rich or high fliers that actually need to and will move about, and they will not want to do so on mass transit systems like public flights.

    However, I would disagree that high subsonic speeds make these developments redundant.

    The next generation of SST is aiming for mach 2.5.

    The current mach 0.93 that the faster business jets can sustain is still pedestrian compared to that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    Im not against development like this, but the Green agenda won't let aircraft like this prosper, especially if it starts making loud noises and burning fuel like a power station.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭Lorddrakul


    More and more projects are being announced for a new generation of SSTs.

    Australia partners with Ukraine for SST

    "A Ukrainian-Australian joint venture is eyeing supersonic passenger flights across the Pacific. A low-profile Australian company with space and supersonic aspirations has teamed with a Ukrainian engine designer and jet engine manufacturer to push the boundaries of commercial passenger flights."

    Via Simple Flying.

    I wonder who will get there first?

    As for your comment, @Stovepipe: the main thrust [snigger] of these efforts is to have a sustainable system that meets noise regs.

    So, efficient, greener engines and advanced designs that mitigate shockwave build up and dissipation to either vastly reduce or eliminate sonic booms.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    How many people would this carry? Not much point if it's only the pilot and maybe one more, as it seems to be.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭Lorddrakul


    How many people would this carry? Not much point if it's only the pilot and maybe one more, as it seems to be.

    Testbed only.

    It's about 1/3rd scale that has been designed through CFD and other CAD techniques to try to get as close to mission goals as possible before committing to a prototype.

    It is expected the first gen of these SSTs will probably be in the large exec jet space, carrying anything from 10-50.

    Next rounds would be scaling up to 150 - 300.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭Lorddrakul


    Looks like the world of SSTs got a little smaller recently.

    "Texas Billionaire’s Supersonic-Jet Dream Dies as Aerion Folds"


    "Aerion Corp., the supersonic-jet developer founded by Texas billionaire Robert Bass and backed by Boeing Co., said it’s ceasing operations after failing to secure enough money to start building the aircraft.

    Raising the large investment needed to move the AS2 private jet from design to production has been “hugely challenging,” Aerion said in an emailed statement Friday. The company had said in March that output of the first planes would start in 2023 at a factory in Melbourne, Florida, with the first commercial delivery expected in 2027.

    The shutdown ends Aerion’s ambitions to help revive civilian supersonic travel for the first time since the 2003 demise of the Concorde. The company had brought in Boeing, signed up General Electric Co. to supply engines and amassed more than $11 billion in orders, including a recent deal for 20 planes from NetJets, a unit of Warren Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway Inc."

    GE has now announced that it is halting development of the engine destined for the Aerion project too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,227 ✭✭✭plodder


    Those tiny wings though - looks a bit like a cruise missile. I wonder what it's take-off/landing speed is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,426 ✭✭✭JohnC.


    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jun/03/united-airlines-boom-supersonic-overture-airliner-concorde

    United ordered 15 Boom Overtures. Subject to them meeting requirements. They'll have 65 to 88 seats, priced at business class rates. Supposedly trial flights in 2026 and commercial flights 3 years later.

    Reckon this will actually happen or fall through at some point between now and then?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,859 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    JohnC. wrote: »
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jun/03/united-airlines-boom-supersonic-overture-airliner-concorde

    United ordered 15 Boom Overtures. Subject to them meeting requirements. They'll have 65 to 88 seats, priced at business class rates. Supposedly trial flights in 2026 and commercial flights 3 years later.

    Reckon this will actually happen or fall through at some point between now and then?

    I’m going with the latter.
    Boom initially boasted about Mach 2.6. That’s now been brought back to M1.7.
    So even before prototype production they have had to scale back.

    And 55 seats is going to mean a hefty premium to make the operation break even. They can obviously charge more than normal Business class for the time saved. But that price difference may discourage customers, even if it ever gets off the runway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Noxegon


    They're playing a very difficult game, but I'm rooting for them.

    I develop Superior Solitaire when I'm not procrastinating on boards.ie.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭Lorddrakul


    That is a certainly a boost, to have orders on the books.
    However, history tells us that is not always enough.

    The Boom design philosophy seems to be drawing on some fairly well tried technology, especially around the intakes and engine nacelles, but it is whether they can manage the booms, pardon the pun, that will make the difference.

    Also, the fairly conventional engine tech doesn't lend itself well to sustainability goals. The might of RR is not to be sniffed at, but sustainable fuel, as opposed to actual carbon reduction is not really where a whole new generation of aircraft should be headed. It may mean that any new fleet of SSTs won;t be able to fly long enough to justify development costs.

    I'd love to see this happen, but I fear it will go the way of so many efforts in this space.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Anyone who was anyone ordered Concordes back in the day, even to the point several US airline pilots flew the prototype.

    There was the Concorde 'B' model which had more range, uprated engine which got rid of the afterburner, never got built, but if it did today with the Airbus FBW tech it would walk all over this proposal given the experience BAE/Airbus has.

    RR did the engines on the Concorde (it was Bristol Siddeley design) but the magic was the air intake and divergent/convergent nozzle which produced some efficiency numbers which probably remain unbeaten.

    There is a lot of know how to pick up and even Boeing gave up on this. Making a prototype is relatively simple, converting that to a FAA/EASA certified commercial aircraft is really difficult


  • Registered Users Posts: 876 ✭✭✭HTCOne


    I don’t doubt there’s a handful of routes that can sustain this type of operation, BA did make Concorde profitable for much of its time with them. My doubts are around whether there’s enough routes out there to sustain enough orders to execute the programme and enough deliveries to make it profitable.


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,859 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    Anyone who was anyone ordered Concordes back in the day, even to the point several US airline pilots flew the prototype.

    .......

    Aer Lingus (the our 'national airline') put a $250,000 deposit down on an order for 2 of the proposed Boeing SST.
    It never happened so they got 3 B747 instead.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭Lorddrakul


    Tenger wrote: »
    Aer Lingus (the our 'national airline') put a $250,000 deposit down on an order for 2 of the proposed Boeing SST.
    It never happened so they got 3 B747 instead.

    Did not know that, thanks.

    Would like to know more. References?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    EI was a launch customer for the 747 and that was in 1969, the old Shamrock logo is there on the very first 747 in Seattle, contract to order the 747's was 1967.

    EI did indeed express an interest in 2 2707's

    The 2707 was cancelled in 1971, after EI had its first 2 747's in service in mid 1971


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,859 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    ..........
    EI did indeed express an interest in 2 2707's

    The 2707 was cancelled in 1971, after EI had its first 2 747's in service in mid 1971

    That’s my mistake then. Obviously a mistaken recollection from reading Flight of the Iolar (history of EI written in 1985/86)


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,744 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    As someone with a huge interest in aviation it's great to see Boom technology make an effort to return to supersonic travel.

    On the technical front, it will be great to see how the efforts to make fuel burn affordable and sonic boom reduction work out.

    It is a disappointment though that 50+yrs post Concorde that passenger capacity for supersonic is reducing and it's staying as the luxury/business/elite option.

    From having a look at the prototype, am I the only one who finds it very reminiscent of the TSR2?


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭artanevilla


    I would be very sceptical about their claims of sustainable fuel and carbon zero.

    They're powering the test bed using an engine designed in the 50s. I also read they are going to use an animal fat based fuel, which is certainly not sustainable considering the amount of land, water, methane etc involved in agriculture.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭Lorddrakul


    @Banie: Indeed, there is more than a little TSR2 about it, but it also had a lot in common with the A-5 Vigilante, which had similarities with the Tornado.

    Perhaps it is a form and function balance where the most efficient solution to a given set of problems turns out strikingly similar in appearance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭Lorddrakul


    The NASA X-59 QueSST prototype is taking shape in the Lockheed Martin Palmdale facility (Source: Aerospace Testing International).

    The time lapse video captures the painstaking nature of assembly for a one off aircraft.

    First flight is expected in 2022, with overflight of populated area expected by 2024.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭Lorddrakul


    UPDATES:

    Boom Supersonic Readies "Baby Boom" for First Flight Test

    • Boom Supersonic's XB-1 prototype, aimed at bringing back supersonic passenger travel, is close to its first flight after extensive testing.
    • The "baby boom" has undergone significant ground testing and received FAA clearance, with expectations for a first flight soon.
    • Boom is developing its own engine, Symphony, for the Overture jet, after major manufacturers declined collaboration, a move that could prove advantageous.

    Via Airline Watch


    NASA's X-59 'quiet' supersonic jet now closer to being the real thing

    Now, with most components sitting right in place, NASA and its contractor, Lockheed Martin, have decided to get the X-59 a fresh coat of paint.

    Via Interesting Engineering

    Genuinely hope all goes to plan for these tow prototypes.


    The Boom efforts have had serious set backs on the engine front, with major manufacturers all shying away. They are now going to in house, which will be costly and time intensive.

    I wonder would the two projects be at odds? If the X-59 demonstrates that quiet SST is viable, will Boom have to go completely back to the drawing board? Will environmental concerns hold it back?

    Challenging times, for sure.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Noxegon


    It's very hard to see how a company with no engine manufacturing experience will be able to build something that can efficiently go supersonic on their first try. I'd love to seem the succeed, mind....

    I develop Superior Solitaire when I'm not procrastinating on boards.ie.



Advertisement