Where to make an official complain about Dublin City Council process

Klaudia.

Hi,

I want to compain about the way Dublin City Council is working, but I cannot find any information. It may seem strange, but here is the background. We have been harrased by our neigbour (my complain to Garda is in progress). He recently made a complain to Dublin City Council about catio we build. Catio he can see only because he is sticking his head over the fence (which I find at least rude) - and also because the fence on our site is like 1,5m high. It's a small terraced estate, Dublin innercity (houses are small, back garden are small). It's very stressful for me living next to him.
This complain make it even worse as Dublin City Council is threating his compaint seriously. Dublin City Council is spending tax people money on investigating our catio. Shouldn't they have like a filter for peoples's complain? I'm not having illegal development (as it's stated in the letters. Imagine getting a letter that you can be put in jail cause you want to keep your pets safe). We built a kennel/enclouse/catio, made by wood and wire, it doesn't even have a roof. There are sites where you can order ready-to go catio solutions (example: https://www.wireshop.ie/product-category/cat-pens-and-catios/). We don't extend the house, we don't look what neigbour is doing. We pay loads of taxes and I don't appreciate being treaten like that...
I find it also racist as I'm foreigner. My partner is Irish and the neigbour is Irish too.

We called to the Council and now investigator is coming to measure our catio, to, as they said, check if we're not extending house for more than 40m2.

Any advice? Or contact to the lawer?

L1011

Councils have to investigate all unauthorised development complaints. If they didn't they would be failing in their responsibilities. If its an exempted development you will have no further actions, and that's that.

Crying "racist" at this stage is completely ridiculous.

You would need a planning consultant, not a lawyer, if there are questions about planning compliance.

wyndham

How many cats do you have?

Darc19

Once the inspector sees it, then the file will be closed.


The standard wording in the letter is just that, standard wording.


If I key a wrong date of my credit card into some websites I will get a message that my ip address is recorded and the site takes fraud seriously. - As I know I have done nothing wrong, I can ignore it.

Same in your letter, it's a general paragraph that is in every letter they send regarding a complaint.

So just let the inspector see it and the issue will be resolved.


Not your problem that your neighbor doesn't like cats.

And I doubt if it is more than 40sqm either. They may apply the 25sqm shed size limit.

So once it is under 25sqm there is absolutely nothing that can be done.

Klaudia.

We have 3 cats. All indoors: neva masquerade, siberian and Maine coon and all with the contract with breeder that those are indoor cats only.
We filed official complain to Garda and they're going to talk with the neighbour (he and his relative threatened to kill us last time we were trying to get to the house). We are worried he will also poison the cats, so we have cameras currently in the back of the house.

The council seems to do not do the work either.
It's not by any means 25sgm as there is not even that amount of space there and we do not cover the back entirerly. The investigator was reluctant to even send us the email with explanation what is wrong or how we can make it work. We were called and the conversation sounded like another threat. It's like he doesn't want to do anything more, just close the case in the easies way possible for him (before coming to us he called saying he doesn't have to come and chceck aything if we agree to take the catio down - so what? He doesn't have to check if we just say yes and then don't take it down??? but he has to come to check if we sent him the right pictures?) All solutions suggested by us were not good
There is no understanding from them what catio is and I can only guess how other people built in this county catios, chicken cubes etc...
We have architect and surveyor that said there is nothing wrong with what we did. And it seems I could build a new room here much easier than keeping my cats safe.

So I do need a lawer.

And I do feel it's racist. As in Ireland majority of people think cats should be outside, while it's not true for all cats. My belief and way of life is not respected. This catio doesn't do any harm to anyone.

Also, we want to rebuilt that house next year (take the old extension down, rebuild and extend the house properly. It's an old, more than 100 years small brick house, in the inner city that needs total rebuit and renovation). And from what my partner is saying we may not be able to do that as in Ireland biased neigbour can appeal and stop our plans from happening. Neighour who threatened us to kill!!!!

Meauldsegosha

If your cats are indoor only, why do you need a catio outside?

Klaudia.

Indoor mens they do not go outside without supervision, they can go outside in the catio, where they don't have contacts with other cats, dogs, foxes, birds of pray, cars, or humans that can attack them). It means you will not see those cats roaming around and trying to get to other peoples houses.

Here you have more information why people build catios:

https://spca.bc.ca/news/catio-benefits/

John Hutton

If your house is already extended there may be issues with this shed type structure as you will exceed the 25sq meters as the extension already took up this amount.

If you want to deal with officialdom in a reasonable way in Ireland you need to learn to read between the lines. Often the inspector is doing people a favour by saying that he wont come out if you agree among yourselves, as once he does an inspection he may notice other things which are wrong.

Crying racism is wrong at this point and won't get you anywhere, although death threats are obviously wrong. Seriously if you start going on about how the council are racist because they don't understand your "way of life" which consists of having a big mesh and wood bird cage/shed thing in your urban back garden you won't get anywhere.

Klaudia.

This structure doesn't have a roof, it's a mesh.

We have neighbours who extended their houses up to the end of the back, so they do not have any space left. Basically every house here is different. The catio is not visible from the street, even neighbour sees small part of it, just because the boarding wall is too short on our side (when he was extending his house, he dug a hole so he is lower than we are)

As I said, we didn't get any official information how we can make it work. And architect and surveyor both said there is nothing wrong with what we created.

John Hutton

Klaudia. wrote: »

This structure doesn't have a roof, it's a mesh.

We have neighbours who extended their houses up to the end of the back, so they do not have any space left. Basically every house here is different. The catio is not visible from the street, even neighbour sees small part of it, just because the boarding wall is too short on our side (when he was extending his house, he dug a hole so he is lower than we are)

As I said, we didn't get any official information how we can make it work. And architect and surveyor both said there is nothing wrong with what we created.

Just because the roof is mesh it does not mean it doesn't need planning permission. How tall is it?


What extensions your neighbors have has no bearing on whether your structure needs planning.


Am I right in saying that you have not been inspected yet? If not wait for the inspection outcome and see what the council tells you to do. Or have they definitively told you to remove it?

Klaudia.

John Hutton wrote: »

What extensions your neighbors have has no bearing on whether your structure needs planning.

I does.As why one can build sth and another person on the same street cannot do the same? They covered entire back, I didn't. I put some wood and mesh. For a year, untill we are ready to start the rebuilt project (2021 unless another problems ).

https://www.wireshop.ie/product/catio-12ft-x-6ft-x-7ft-5-high/

Sth like that downstairs and a ramp to the window, uptairs:
https://www.wireshop.ie/product/catio-6ft-x-3ft-x-7ft-5-high/

The inspector basically said they don't have definition for that so it's a no. There is no line about catios in 'the law' so it's a no. Our surveyor and architect will appeal. You can buy ready-to-go solutions like what we did.

John Hutton

Klaudia. wrote: »

I does.As why one can build sth and another person on the same street cannot do the same? They covered entire back, I didn't. I put some wood and mesh. For a year, untill we are ready to start the rebuilt project (2021 unless another problems ).

https://www.wireshop.ie/product/catio-cat-lean-9ft-x-6ft-x-7-5ft-tall/

Sth like that downstairs and a ramp to the window, uptairs:
https://www.wireshop.ie/product/catio-6ft-x-3ft-x-7ft-5-high/

The inspector basically said they don't have definition for that so it's a no. There is no line about catios in 'the law' so it's a no. Our surveyor and architect will appeal. You can buy ready-to-go solutions like what we did.

It doesn't. If my neighbor gets planning (or maybe doesn't) for a big extension and builds one, it doesn't mean that I can just go and build whatever in my back garden as long as it is smaller.


Friend of mine had to get planning for a large chicken coup and run, very similar to a catio (although obviously he had poultry which is a factor). It is clearly a structure.



How much free space in your back garden is left? Is it less than 25 square meters?

Klaudia.

What makes you consider it a structure?

ALso, we called companies who build catios and they said they have never had to get any planing permission as it's not a structure.

John Hutton

Klaudia. wrote: »

What makes you consider it a structure?

ALso, we called companies who build catios and they said they have never had to get any planing permission as it's not a structure.

Because it is! Why do you say it isn't?


Do you have 25 Square Meters of garden left?

Klaudia.

John Hutton wrote: »

How much free space in your back garden is left? Is it less than 25 square meters?

We're talking about house that originally didn't have 25sqm in the back. People here were building their extensions on what was previously a narrow road between the two lines of houses. They just pushed the border. And apparently now it's all legalised as it 'was different times'. It's very specific neighbourhood.

Klaudia.

John Hutton wrote: »

Because it is! Why do you say it isn't?

Because architect and surveyor said it's not.

John Hutton

They are wrong.

You would be looking for a Class 3 exemption, you mightnt get it


CLASS 3The construction, erection or placing within the curtilage of a house of any tent, awning, shade or other object, greenhouse, garage, store, shed or other similar structure.

Klaudia.

John Hutton wrote: »

They are wrong.

You would be looking for a Class 3 exemption, you mightnt get it


CLASS 3The construction, erection or placing within the curtilage of a house of any tent, awning, shade or other object, greenhouse, garage, store, shed or other similar structure.

Thank you. I will read it very carefully!

John Hutton

Klaudia. wrote: »

Thank you. I will read it very carefully!

https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/legislations/planning_and_development_regulations_2001_-_2018unofficial_consolidation_annotated16.11.2018_3.pdf

Klaudia.

John Hutton wrote: »

https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/legislations/planning_and_development_regulations_2001_-_2018unofficial_consolidation_annotated16.11.2018_3.pdf

Hi,

I red it and I'm still confused.
Let's say a person wants to rebuild a house and submit an application to the council. Can council agree to the developemtn that is 'not right' according to this document?
Here is an example of a plan of extended house in the area. They were not able to have 25sqm garden.It would take half of the space. There are also renovated houses with a roof garden, which is not permitted as per this document

Also, did your friends really have to put a site notice on their door cause they were building a chicken coop? Maybe also hire an architect to do the plan?

I haven't found information that council can say no, just because they don't know what the proposed 'structure' is.

I really think this situation is ridiculous.
What problem council try to resolve by taking up this 'case'?

John Hutton

Klaudia. wrote: »

Hi,

I red it and I'm still confused.
Let's say a person wants to rebuild a house and submit an application to the council. Can council agree to the developemtn that is 'not right' according to this document?
Here is an example of a plan of extended house in the area. They were not able to have 25sqm garden.It would take half of the space. There are also renovated houses with a roof garden, which is not permitted as per this document

Also, did your friends really have to put a site notice on their door cause they were building a chicken coop? Maybe also hire an architect to do the plan?

I haven't found information that council can say no, just because they don't know what the proposed 'structure' is.

I really think this situation is ridiculous.
What problem council try to resolve by taking up this 'case'?

Extensions etc may have been built pre 1964.

Regarding other aspects they may or may not have applied for planning permission but that has no bearing on whether you need or dont need to apply.

The way these things generally work in Ireland is that you agree it all with the neighbours first and hopefully no one complains.

Regarding my friend, yes he had to get planning for it. Seems mad I know. The document specifically says with regard to poultry that a structure for poultry cannot be exempt from planning under class 3. My friends real problem was that he had annoying neighbors who he didn't ask first.

With your structure I imagine this is the relevant bit that your catio would fall under:

CLASS 3 The construction, erection or placing within the curtilage of a house of any tent, awning, shade or other object, greenhouse, garage, store, shed or other similar structure.

Basically the document says that your structure can be exempt from planning, subject to the following conditions:

1.No such structure shall be constructed, erected or placed forward of the front wall of a house.

2.The total area of such structures constructed, erected or placed within the curtilage of a house shall not, taken together with any other such structures previously constructed, erected or placed within the said curtilage, exceed 25 square metres.

3.The construction,erection or placing within the curtilage of a house of any such structure shall not reduce the amount of private open space reserved exclusively for the use of the occupants of the house to the rear or to the side of the house to less than 25 square metres.
4.The external finishes of any garage or other structure constructed, erected or placed to the side of a house, and the roof covering where any such structure has a tiled or slated roof, shall conform with those of the house.
5.The height of any such structure shall not exceed, in the case of a building with a tiled or slated pitched roof, 4 metres or, in any other case, 3 metres.
6.The structure shall not be used for human habitation or for the keeping of pigs, poultry, pigeons, ponies or horses, or for any other purpose other than a purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the house as such.

I think your structure would fall foul of a couple of these conditions, and arguably point 6. I don't think a large catio in a small urban garden is incidental.

So, if your structure is not an exempt one, this means you need planning.

Just a caveat, it has been quite a long time since I had to do anything with planning so maybe things have changed and my thoughts are out of date.

nuac

imho condition 6 may cause a problem for the applicant

Marcusm

nuac wrote: »

imho condition 6 may cause a problem for the applicant

Surely the keeping of a domestic pet such as a cat would not be equated to the other types of animals listed. Ejusdem generis and all that.

Darc19

Marcusm wrote: »

Surely the keeping of a domestic pet such as a cat would not be equated to the other types of animals listed. Ejusdem generis and all that.

The keeping of a "normal" or "reasonable" number of cats would be fine.

Then what is "reasonable". For a small house my opinion would be 3 or 4, but I'm sure you could argue 6.

More than 6 may cause problems.

I don't think there will be any major problems. Just a nosy neighbor who has a problem with something they don't like and acting the bully