Priests & nuns

pinkypinky

It struck me today that there are many families which had a priest or a nun in every generation.

Maybe it's indicative of my family's eventual atheism, but I have almost no examples. There's 3 priests, all still alive (in over 3000 people) No nuns. My great-aunt was what my father called a "failed nun" - she joined an order but never was ordained (is that the right term?)

Interested to know what stats others have found on this topic.

Hermy

I have a lot of priests and nuns in the family and even a bishop or two.

That's all on my mothers side - not sure there's any on my Dad's side.

I'll make a list and come back to you with stats.

L1011

We've a Bishop of Pittsburgh and a nun on one site and nowt on the other.

Lots of failed seminarians though, cause it was a cheap way to get secondary education in those days I guess :pac:

Liamo57

My great grandfathers father was a parish priest and in the 1911 census he is down as being a priedts boy. His mother is the priests housekeeper. The whole Catholic church thing is a stage play. Celebasy is non existant, there is no such thing

spurious

I have a set of twins on one side became nuns together and moved to the US.

On the other side I have a number of guys who got educated by the priests and legged it. Needs must.

KildareFan

My mother's grandfather was protestant- there are a few clerics in the far off branches, but no nuns or priests.
My father's ancestors were farmers and RIC men - no clerics in the early days. He had a first cousin who was a nun who went to Australia with her order. She pestered me for years to join her. I never did. Two other cousins sold their farm in the 1960s and went off to be ordained in Australia.

tabbey

pinkypinky wrote: »

. My great-aunt was what my father called a "failed nun" - she joined an order but never was ordained (is that the right term?)

Never was professed.

pinkypinky

Ah great: I was hoping this would bring up some debate for us.

So lots of people became seminarians as an easy way to get secondary education (which didn't become free until the 1960s).

Hermy

My mothers maternal grandmothers branch of the tree has eight nuns and eight priests over three generations.

L1011

I've just remembered a De La Salle monk/brother more recently on the side I said had nothing; he ended up writing one of the history textbooks used in Catholic secondaries in the UK in the 80s/90s as far as I know.

He told me he made up having a vocation to get out of a bollocking for being late back to school (in the 40s) and just went with it! Wanted to be a history teacher, ended up being a history teacher, just with a worse salary and imposed celibacy.

SophieLockhart

Liamo57 wrote: »

My great grandfathers father was a parish priest and in the 1911 census he is down as being a priedts boy. His mother is the priests housekeeper. The whole Catholic church thing is a stage play. Celebasy is non existant, there is no such thing

You don't sound like the most reliable witness to be fair :pac:

Hermy

I have nothing but contempt for organised religion generally but when I read the old newspaper articles jubilantly announcing the entry of my teenage ancestors entering into holy orders I do feel a certain sympathy for the life sentences they were unwittingly taking on.

pinkypinky

L1011 wrote: »

I've just remembered a De La Salle monk/brother more recently on the side I said had nothing; he ended up writing one of the history textbooks used in Catholic secondaries in the UK in the 80s/90s as far as I know.

He told me he made up having a vocation to get out of a bollocking for being late back to school (in the 40s) and just went with it! Wanted to be a history teacher, ended up being a history teacher, just with a worse salary and imposed celibacy.

That's quite sad.

There must be some amount of priests and nuns out there who felt the whole thing was a charade but they couldn’t escape once ordained- they knew no other life and were too institutionalised to leave- what a miserable existence they must have had

VirginiaB

I have quite a few nuns in my family tree but only one priest. I admire their long and devoted service to the people of God. I have pages for all of them, and photos where possible, on my Ancestry tree.

Irish and Irish-American nuns built New York's social services system from nothing, as one example of this service. I recommend a book, 'Habits of Compassion: Irish Catholic Nuns and the Origins of New York's Welfare System, 1830-1920' by Maureen Fitzgerald, based on her PhD dissertation.

I have to say it makes me sad to see what seems like hate speech allowed on this usually helpful and friendly forum. Wish we could just answer the question without the digression. But as digressions are ok, then this is mine.

bobbyy gee

i have 20 priests and nuns in my family now

Strumms

On both sides the families are quite religious yet none of them are nuns or priests. Even going back none were..apart from.....

An aunt on my mother’s side ‘was’ a nun but left after a very short stint. She is VERY religious to this day, married with kids but if you were to ask her about her brief time in the process of going to become a nun, a woman who never would curse or speak ill of anybody ... “bunch of fûcking evil bastards”...

Liamo57

I have a part time job which involves interviewing people over the phone. Only one nasty person did I come across and she was a nun. Her tone and language was unbelievable.

Garlinge

My grandfather had the 'honour' of being offered a place in a seminary and left his village at the age of 13 yrs and was not to return for many years. He trained with the De La Salle order and in the 1911 census I find him as a teacher living with other men with a Christian Brother as head of household. I am not sure if he 'transferred' or if they had some swopping arrangement? He later was promoted to assistant master and send to an industrial school outside Manchester. This broke his spirit and he fled to far east coast of England where he spent the rest of his life as an ordinary teacher and where he raised a family. He must have borne the guilt of a being a failed religious on his visits back to his village in adult life. This would be in the eyes of his family and also of the small village.

Another relative went to America at the age of 16 yrs to join the Presentation Order in San Francisco (1873). She travelled alone across the country after arriving in New York. The railway connection was only built a few years. She survived the 1906 earthquake and fire that destroyed her convent and ended her days as teacher in California. I was once told that should she have wished to leave, her family would have had to repay the order for the expenses involved in her training etc. More well to do women might have offered a dowry to the convent they might have been returned to them on leaving.

L1011

The De La Salles are also known as Christian Brothers; in Ireland its confusing due to the Irish organisation.

Garlinge

Thanks for that, I often wondered why he changed? the Industrial School in UK was run by Christian Brothers.

L1011

Garlinge wrote: »

Thanks for that, I often wondered why he changed? the Industrial School in UK was run by Christian Brothers.

In the UK, Christian Brother generally means De La Salle, that's my point.

Its really only in Ireland that it means the Irish organisation.

I have no idea why I know this, I haven't been in a church in years...


edit: it seems the Irish Christian Brothers did have some schools in England, actually. This goes beyond the complications I care to understand!

Seamai

Quite a few nuns on my mother's side including my grandmother's sister who was possibly one of the most unchristian people I've ever met. My gran also had first three first cousins (from the one family) who all became Poor Clares. One of my mum's cousin's became a nun at a ridiculously young age but got sense and left in her late 20's.

L1011

I've further remembered I have a cousin who dropped out before professing, in the past 20 years - now works for some Catholic youth charity and has a rake of kids; probably being more useful to the Catholic Church and its future than as a nun; and my partner has a cousin who was briefly a fully ordained Holy Ghost Father; and is now a Met Police officer.

Both are quite a bit older than us; I think the copper is damn close to retirement actually.

I'm sure I've managed to blank more memories accidentally.

Hermy

VirginiaB wrote: »

I have to say it makes me sad to see what seems like hate speech allowed on this usually helpful and friendly forum. Wish we could just answer the question without the digression. But as digressions are ok, then this is mine.

By hate speech do you mean my comment about having nothing but contempt for organised religion?

Given the abuses that were committed, facilitated and concealed by the Catholic Church in Ireland over the past century do you not think it's a perfectly reasonable view to hold?

And it's not a digression - religion and genealogy are inextricably linked - especially for adoptees like myself.

Because thanks to the nuns and priests whose job it once was to convince everyone in Ireland that having a child out of wedlock was wrong I am not allowed to know who my parents are and that makes me more than a bit sad.

pinkypinky

VirginiaB wrote: »

I have to say it makes me sad to see what seems like hate speech allowed on this usually helpful and friendly forum. Wish we could just answer the question without the digression. But as digressions are ok, then this is mine.

If you have a problem with something said, please either use the report function or PM me. I don't have any difficulty with anything said so far on this thread. We are all coming from different backgrounds and generations. There are both positive and negatives to the Catholic church's role in shaping Ireland.

srmf5

We don't have that many nuns or priests in the family but religion was and is important to my family on both sides. My grandfather's twin sister became a nun. My 3x great grandfather's brother was a priest. They're the only ones who I can think of who were siblings of ancestors. The rest of the nuns and priests in the family are cousins of varying degrees. One of them included Fr. Michael O'Flanagan known as the 'Rebel Priest'. He'd be my first cousin 3x removed. My great grandfather's sister wasn't a nun but she was a Lady of the Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre.

pinkypinky

srmf5 wrote: »

Lady of the Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre.

Was that a sodality?

srmf5

pinkypinky wrote: »

Was that a sodality?

I don't think so. I don't really know much about it to be honest but it was mentioned in her obituary. My aunt referred to it as a sort of religious knighthood. Looking online, it is referred to as a Catholic order of knighthood under the protection of the Holy See. I don't really know how you get the honour. Once again looking online, membership of the order is by invitation only, to practicing Catholic men and women – laity and clergy – of good character, minimum 25 years of age, who have distinguished themselves by concern for the Christians of the Holy Land.

Her husband also had some religious 'titles' (I suppose you'd call them). He was a Private Chamberlain and Knight of the Cape and Sword to Pope Pius XII as well as a Knight of Grace of the Gregorian Order of St. George according to his obituary. The latter seems to be in recognition of their personal service to the Holy See and to the Roman Catholic Church, through their unusual labors, their support of the Holy See, and the examples they set in their communities and their countries. I couldn't find much on the former.

They seem to be honourary titles granted by the Pope in a similar way that a British monarch makes someone a knight or dame.

pinkypinky

The opera singer John McCormack was a papal count - maybe this is similar.

Tow

Garlinge wrote: »

I was once told that should she have wished to leave, her family would have had to repay the order for the expenses involved in her training etc. More well to do women might have offered a dowry to the convent they might have been returned to them on leaving.

I have been told by my grand parents, those who did not have a dowry were the nuns who had to work, i.e. were trained to be a teacher etc. While those who had sufficient dowry could devote their life to God/prayer. Or has my grandfather would say about a close relative of his, she ever did a days work in her life". The story was she was always very frail and her father decided being a nun was the best thing for her. So sent her off to the nuns with a big dowry, where she lived a to a good old age.

Garlinge

Yes I agree about the division of labour in a convent. In convent I attended in '50's and '60's, there were 'mothers' and 'sisters' and the latter did the scut work, cooking, cleaning, answering the door etc. The others did teaching (no qualifications?) and praying! Social class background of course an aspect of who could come up with dowry etc.

Water John

As well the age a girl entered the convent influenced the matter. An older girl 20+ would have to pay to get in and would nor be trained in a profession, just do house duties.

John P. Mac

I had a priest cousin born in Co. Longford in 1888. The only information I have on him is that he was a priest. The family moved around as the father was an RIC member and ended up in Limerick. I contacted two parishes where they lived without success. I found no record of him in the 1911 census so he may have been a missionary. His siblings left no children. Is there any central record of Irish priests in the early 1900s ?

Hermy

Sometimes the likes of the Thom's Directories will mention the local parish priest for a given area.

I contacted the archivist in the Archdiocese of Dublin before on a similar matter so they may be worth a call.

Newspaper death notices and obituaries for priests are often quite detailed so I'd keep an eye out for those also.

bocaman

Back in the day having a priest or a nun in the family was seen as a badge of honour and gave you some standing within the community. Many entered just to avail of an education. How man priests and nuns though ended up regretting their decision and went onto have unhappy lives.

Tow

bocaman wrote: »

Back in the day having a priest or a nun in the family was seen as a badge of honour and gave you some standing within the community. Many entered just to avail of an education. How man priests and nuns though ended up regretting their decision and went onto have unhappy lives.

From a modern perspective we would think many were unhappy. But as you said you self they were respected and looked up to by the general population. Certainly some were not suited to be teachers, but these were mainly Brothers. Lower in the peaking order than a Priest or higher again were Jesuit Priests. Some appeared to be independently wealthy and by all accounts had great life.

Vetch

John P. Mac wrote: »

I had a priest cousin born in Co. Longford in 1888. The only information I have on him is that he was a priest. The family moved around as the father was an RIC member and ended up in Limerick. I contacted two parishes where they lived without success. I found no record of him in the 1911 census so he may have been a missionary. His siblings left no children. Is there any central record of Irish priests in the early 1900s ?

He would have been young to be ordained in 1911. Have you tried searching for him without a first name? He might have entered a congregation where they took religious names.

Hermy

Tow wrote: »

But as you said you self they were respected and looked up to by the general population.

Respected? Or feared?

pinkypinky

I think some of both, Hermy.

Water John

Priests in parishes could become relatively wealthy, often financed the purchase of land for the home family.

As with McTaggert, any other surnames which indicate the celibacy rule wasn't always adhered to.

spurious

John P. Mac wrote: »

I had a priest cousin born in Co. Longford in 1888. The only information I have on him is that he was a priest. The family moved around as the father was an RIC member and ended up in Limerick. I contacted two parishes where they lived without success. I found no record of him in the 1911 census so he may have been a missionary. His siblings left no children. Is there any central record of Irish priests in the early 1900s ?

There are Catholic Directories in the National Library (possibly also elsewhere) that have this sort of information.
http://sources.nli.ie/Record/MS_UR_002422

Garlinge

I think each Diocese produced one and it was annual for Dublin when I was familiar with same in 1970's.

On the subject of nuns, there was a project about 10 yrs ago, to record details of all Irish nuns organised by the Genealogical Society of Ireland. They have an archive in Loughlinstown, Co Dublin so perhaps the paper records are there.

p15574

I have an uncle who is a Christian Brother. Apparently my grandfather arranged with them to 'donate' a child (he had plenty to spare) and they turned up at the door on the appointed day (in the forties) to pick him him. The nominated son, unsurprisingly, had no intention of joining and legged it well in advance, resulting in my other uncle having to step in and take the bullet for him. He's 99 now and in retirement (but still with them).

On my mother's side, I have an aunt who went all the way through 'nun-dum' until she was to take the final vows. I think a clincher for her was when my granny died suddenly and they were very cold and unsympathetic and she left within weeks of that.

pinkypinky

Child donation! It's just impossible to imagine such a thing nowadays in Ireland.

Hermy

pinkypinky wrote: »

Child donation! It's just impossible to imagine such a thing nowadays in Ireland.

The past, as they say, is a foreign land!