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Long distance - Every day driving.

  • 29-09-2020 7:25pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭ Quiksilver


    Hi All,
    Just looking for a bit of advice, have been thing of going electric, but i'm worried about the viability of it for long distance driving. I usually travel 120Km round trip for work and home (Not as often with covid now) as was wondering if this kind of driving every day would put too much wear on the batteries?
    I know there is a lot of EVs with 200+ Km range but just wonder would i be needing to change out the batteries after 3 year or so.

    Anyone else been using an EV with long commute distances?


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 30,509 ✭✭✭✭ Lumen


    What are the speed limits on the roads on that commute? i.e. what mix of 120, 80 and below? Speed makes a massive difference to range.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭ redlead


    Lumen wrote: »
    What are the speed limits on the roads on that commute? i.e. what mix of 120, 80 and below? Speed makes a massive difference to range.

    I think he's more talking about the impact of heavy daily use on the battery than range anxiety.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Gumbo


    Quiksilver wrote: »
    Hi All,
    Just looking for a bit of advice, have been thing of going electric, but i'm worried about the viability of it for long distance driving. I usually travel 120Km round trip for work and home (Not as often with covid now) as was wondering if this kind of driving every day would put too much wear on the batteries?
    I know there is a lot of EVs with 200+ Km range but just wonder would i be needing to change out the batteries after 3 year or so.

    Anyone else been using an EV with long commute distances?

    There’s many doing double that daily.
    I don’t think you’ll have to replace a battery on any of the new crop of 400km plus cars.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,509 ✭✭✭✭ Lumen


    redlead wrote: »
    I think he's more talking about the impact of heavy daily use on the battery than range anxiety.

    They're related though. If you're charging to 100% every night because you need all of the range then the battery will degrade faster.


  • Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭ Quiksilver


    Ya, not really range anxiety.
    I would say 60% Motorway, 30% Rural 80-100kph with 10% City/Town (50 and under).


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  • Moderators Posts: 11,973 ✭✭✭✭ Black_Knight


    Lumen wrote: »
    They're related though. If you're charging to 100% every night because you need all of the range then the battery will degrade faster.

    Shouldn't be much of an issue with top buffers built into batteries, but I get where you're coming from.

    As for battery degradation, it's pretty much a non issue. EVs these days have much improved battery management systems to keep batteries closer to optimum temperatures (active cooling is common now compared to passive cooling in the Nissan leaf which has suffered from somewhat aggressive battery degradation), so losing noticeable range or having to swap out batteries isn't really a thing.

    What's more, EVs typically come with a significant warranty on the battery (up to 8 years in most cases), so if there's aggressive degradation the manufacturer will replace the battery for free. I've heard of Teslas, Leafs, and actually 1 Ioniq having their main battery replaced under warranty.

    The Hyundai Ioniq for example, will do about 150km on a full charge in any weather (a bit less on motorways, a lot more in towns), but at best I can only find reports of 5% degradation after over 110k km when exclusively charged at DC fast chargers.

    Bjorn Nyland did some very rough (IMO) calculations on an Ioniq with 92k km and he suggests it has 8% degradation. I think it should be closer to 5% (28kWh battery, 10% buffer (5% lower, 5% upper) = 30.8kWh battery which he charged from 4% displayed which is 9% including the buffer, to 94% displayed, which is more like 89% including the buffer... 80% added. He added 24.8kWh based on the charge point itself and then guessed losses of 5%. My calculations would make that 29.45kWh capacity total out of 30.8kWh, thus just under 5% degradation)


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,192 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    Quiksilver wrote: »
    Hi All,
    Just looking for a bit of advice, have been thing of going electric, but i'm worried about the viability of it for long distance driving. I usually travel 120Km round trip for work and home (Not as often with covid now) as was wondering if this kind of driving every day would put too much wear on the batteries?
    I know there is a lot of EVs with 200+ Km range but just wonder would i be needing to change out the batteries after 3 year or so.

    Anyone else been using an EV with long commute distances?

    Thats a pub myth! :)

    EV batteries dont ever wear out within 3 years no matter how hard or far you drive them. The only ones that have needed replacing are faulty ones which get replaced under warranty and as already pointed out they have an 8yr warranty if the battery goes below 70% original capacity.

    If you are serious about switching to EV you need to focus on..

    - can you charge the car at home... vital for EV driving at this point in time.
    - What is your budget and can you get an EV that will comfortably cover your return journey in the depths of winter within that budget.

    Dont worry about the batteries wearing out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭ Quiksilver


    Shouldn't be much of an issue with top buffers built into batteries, but I get where you're coming from.

    As for battery degradation, it's pretty much a non issue. EVs these days have much improved battery management systems to keep batteries closer to optimum temperatures (active cooling is common now compared to passive cooling in the Nissan leaf which has suffered from somewhat aggressive battery degradation), so losing noticeable range or having to swap out batteries isn't really a thing.

    What's more, EVs typically come with a significant warranty on the battery (up to 8 years in most cases), so if there's aggressive degradation the manufacturer will replace the battery for free. I've heard of Teslas, Leafs, and actually 1 Ioniq having their main battery replaced under warranty.

    The Hyundai Ioniq for example, will do about 150km on a full charge in any weather (a bit less on motorways, a lot more in towns), but at best I can only find reports of 5% degradation after over 110k km when exclusively charged at DC fast chargers.

    Bjorn Nyland did some very rough (IMO) calculations on an Ioniq with 92k km and he suggests it has 8% degradation. I think it should be closer to 5% (28kWh battery, 10% buffer (5% lower, 5% upper) = 30.8kWh battery which he charged from 4% displayed which is 9% including the buffer, to 94% displayed, which is more like 89% including the buffer... 80% added. He added 24.8kWh based on the charge point itself and then guessed losses of 5%. My calculations would make that 29.45kWh capacity total out of 30.8kWh, thus just under 5% degradation)

    Thanks for the great info. I know when i have discussed with work colleagues they always just revert to the whole point of just buy a diesel when doing so many motorway miles. That it would just work out better. When buying a new car (or like a 1-2 year old car) i really think i should consider an EV or PHEV. I know for the quick 10min drive to the shops there is pretty big savings to be made over time. The only thing with the PHEV i see is that they might not be best for the long commute.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,509 ✭✭✭✭ Lumen


    Oh, I misread the OP. I thought it was 120km each way.

    Pretty much any EV would be fine. They'll use maybe 20-25kWh, so anything with over 30kWh won't get stressed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭ Quiksilver


    KCross wrote: »
    Thats a pub myth! :)

    EV batteries dont ever wear out within 3 years no matter how hard or far you drive them. The only ones that have needed replacing are faulty ones which get replaced under warranty and as already pointed out they have an 8yr warranty if the battery goes below 70% original capacity.

    If you are serious about switching to EV you need to focus on..

    - can you charge the car at home... vital for EV driving at this point in time.
    - What is your budget and can you get an EV that will comfortably cover your return journey in the depths of winter within that budget.

    Dont worry about the batteries wearing out.

    Charging at home is fine, id guess either bu "granny cable" or i would get a charger fitted (Mechanically fit myself and have a sparky wire it up)

    As for budget, would probably get a loan and would like to keep in the 20-30K range if possible. I would probably try to get something 1-2 years old to save a few quid if i could as i would assume i would be getting into 40K mark going brand new for something with very good range.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,892 ✭✭✭ zg3409


    I travel 110km/day with my 28kWh battery ioniq. Its nearly 4 years old and battery is still showing 100% quality. You can pick one up for around 20,000 euro and you would save about 2,000 compared to diesel every year. If you go through toll you save more. Depreciation is more a worry for newer cars, of any type. If you buy any car brand new depreciation might be 20% of value in first year. The leaf has more battery wear than other cars, but its still not a big issue.

    In terms of day to day use I do 110km with 30 to 40% battery spare for extra evening trips to shops. The main downside to EVs is needing to publically charge and often public chargers are busy, broken or blocked. There is a limited number of high power 40kW+ chargers on main motorways and they can be too busy at peak times. So some people buy cars with 300/400km range so need to charge publically is reduced considerably. Battery wear is not an issue, but charger working and free anxiety is real for longer trips. It less of an issue for 2 car households where you can borrow the other car for longer trips.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭ fricatus


    Quiksilver wrote: »
    Hi All,
    Just looking for a bit of advice, have been thing of going electric, but i'm worried about the viability of it for long distance driving. I usually travel 120Km round trip for work and home (Not as often with covid now) as was wondering if this kind of driving every day would put too much wear on the batteries?
    I know there is a lot of EVs with 200+ Km range but just wonder would i be needing to change out the batteries after 3 year or so.

    Anyone else been using an EV with long commute distances?

    I’ve a daily commute of 55 km there, 55 back, been doing it in an Ioniq BEV since March 2018, put up 80,000 km on the car so far.

    I charge either at home or at work, fast charging only on long journeys, no noticeable loss of range. Car said 212 km this morning although I know it would only really be 150 km if driving at motorway speeds. The battery warranty is up once I reach 200k km, but with electricity at €2 per day (about 20-22 units at night rate), the car has saved me about €5k in fuel costs, so a good bit of it paying for itself. Never mind that three-year business BTW - that really is just pub talk!


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭ Gazzler82


    Quiksilver wrote: »
    Charging at home is fine, id guess either bu "granny cable" or i would get a charger fitted (Mechanically fit myself and have a sparky wire it up)

    As for budget, would probably get a loan and would like to keep in the 20-30K range if possible. I would probably try to get something 1-2 years old to save a few quid if i could as i would assume i would be getting into 40K mark going brand new for something with very good range.

    There should be decent savings in terms of runnings costs as well. Say 5l of diesel per 100k so 30l a week or €33 versus even 30kwh x 5 days at night rate of 6c or €9. €24 a week x 50 weeks is €1220 a year. Plus savings on service/tolls/car tax

    You’ll pick up a new ID3 basic for €33k or so.


  • Moderators Posts: 11,973 ✭✭✭✭ Black_Knight


    Quiksilver wrote: »
    Charging at home is fine, id guess either bu "granny cable" or i would get a charger fitted (Mechanically fit myself and have a sparky wire it up)

    As for budget, would probably get a loan and would like to keep in the 20-30K range if possible. I would probably try to get something 1-2 years old to save a few quid if i could as i would assume i would be getting into 40K mark going brand new for something with very good range.

    Granny cable shouldn't really be a long term solution, especially for a full EV.
    There's a €600 grant currently to aid in installing a car charger at you home, but only if installed by a seai registered electrician. It's not much more complicated than installing an external socket, so don't let them fool you by charging hundreds. You can source your own charge point and save a few quid too. Simple units + installation can be got for under the €600 grant. More complex units (smart apps, ones which can utilise solar power etc) can cost upwards of €1000 to purchase and install.

    On the 20k end of the budget you'd be looking at a Hyundai Ioniq or a Nissan Leaf 40kWh. Both with in around 200km of range. Less when driven faster (though the Ioniq is more efficient than the leaf at higher speeds) and more when driven slower. Renault Zoe would be another option, though I don't know too much about their range. I believe it's higher for slower speeds, but suffers at high speeds. Just be sure with the Zoe that the battery is owned and not rented (you pay ~€50 a month to Renault until the day the car dies if the battery is rented).

    On the 30k budget The BMW i3 is available. Great looking car for some (I love its looks), sinful for others. Not sure on their range.
    The VW eGolf can be got for mid to high 20s I believe, and does up to 200km I believe.
    The Peugeot e208 is around 27-31k depending on the trim. Around 290km range at 90km/hr, 190km at 120km/hr.
    Hyundai Konas have popped up recently at a bit over 30k. They'll do 400km pretty much. They're boring and a bit small inside, but look well outside imo.

    The Ioniq and Leaf can be got around these prices too, but there'll little in terms of an upgrade you'd be paying for by going up the years.

    Here's Bjorns spreadsheet of cars he has range tested at different speeds and temperatures.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V6ucyFGKWuSQzvI8lMzvvWJHrBS82echMVJH37kwgjE/edit#gid=735351678


  • Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭ Quiksilver


    Granny cable shouldn't really be a long term solution, especially for a full EV.
    There's a €600 grant currently to aid in installing a car charger at you home, but only if installed by a seai registered electrician. It's not much more complicated than installing an external socket, so don't let them fool you by charging hundreds. You can source your own charge point and save a few quid too. Simple units + installation can be got for under the €600 grant. More complex units (smart apps, ones which can utilise solar power etc) can cost upwards of €1000 to purchase and install.

    On the 20k end of the budget you'd be looking at a Hyundai Ioniq or a Nissan Leaf 40kWh. Both with in around 200km of range. Less when driven faster (though the Ioniq is more efficient than the leaf at higher speeds) and more when driven slower. Renault Zoe would be another option, though I don't know too much about their range. I believe it's higher for slower speeds, but suffers at high speeds. Just be sure with the Zoe that the battery is owned and not rented (you pay ~€50 a month to Renault until the day the car dies if the battery is rented).

    On the 30k budget The BMW i3 is available. Great looking car for some (I love its looks), sinful for others. Not sure on their range.
    The VW eGolf can be got for mid to high 20s I believe, and does up to 200km I believe.
    The Peugeot e208 is around 27-31k depending on the trim. Around 290km range at 90km/hr, 190km at 120km/hr.
    Hyundai Konas have popped up recently at a bit over 30k. They'll do 400km pretty much. They're boring and a bit small inside, but look well outside imo.

    The Ioniq and Leaf can be got around these prices too, but there'll little in terms of an upgrade you'd be paying for by going up the years.

    Here's Bjorns spreadsheet of cars he has range tested at different speeds and temperatures.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V6ucyFGKWuSQzvI8lMzvvWJHrBS82echMVJH37kwgjE/edit#gid=735351678
    Thanks Black Knight, some really great info there, currently driving a 06 Jetta, so the Ioniq looks like it would suit size wise. I'd be guessing that 2018-19 would probably be a good year to be aiming for when going down the second hand route; while trying for the the 38Kwh version.


  • Moderators Posts: 11,973 ✭✭✭✭ Black_Knight


    Quiksilver wrote: »
    Thanks Black Knight, some really great info there, currently driving a 06 Jetta, so the Ioniq looks like it would suit size wise. I'd be guessing that 2018-19 would probably be a good year to be aiming for when going down the second hand route; while trying for the the 38Kwh version.

    38kWh version only started selling in 2020, and new was/is costing about 35k. It's well regarded as being overpriced here on boards. It has about 60km or so more range, but it charges much much slower. It'll take over and hour charge from a low battery to full at a fast charger. It has some nicer kit inside I guess. 2020 second hand ones would probably be around 30k I'd guess.

    The ioniq 28 started selling in 2017 and second hand can be got for about 18-19k. In 2019 it additionally came as standard with a heated steering wheel and blind spot detection (think that's all). 2019 versions can be got for around 24k.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭ jusmeig


    KCross wrote: »
    Thats a pub myth! :)

    Had my car parked up charging and I overheard 2 gents talking about my car (Tesla Model 3 SR+). One guy was telling the other guy:

    They look nice, but that's about it, you have to replace the battery after 2 years, and it costs about 20k. He told his friend that he has a friend in the ESB who said the grid can only support 10,000 electric cars...

    I would like to thank the VW Motor Group and big oil for one of the best funded FUD campaigns in history.

    On Topic: 28kwh Ioniq will do 120km all year round and is fine to charge to 100%. I mean you would be fine with Leaf 40kwh also or anything above. AC charging each night is also the best option to keep your battery sweet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭ Quiksilver


    Thanks Guys, Think i will start hunting for a 2018 Ioniq. Not a huge fan for the Leafs looks.
    Also sounds like the 28Kwh Ioniq might be better for the likes of long trips to dublin with a 30min stop to top up the coffee and the battery.


  • Moderators Posts: 11,973 ✭✭✭✭ Black_Knight


    Quiksilver wrote: »
    Thanks Guys, Think i will start hunting for a 2018 Ioniq. Not a huge fan for the Leafs looks.
    Also sounds like the 28Kwh Ioniq might be better for the likes of long trips to dublin with a 30min stop to top up the coffee and the battery.

    Where from? I did Cork - Dublin before when portlaoise "hub" was there, and I took 2 stops. 1 at Cashel (multiple charge points there so I could count on it) and rolled into Naas (terrible location) when Mayfield was not working. Ionity Naas and Portlaoise are a nice stress reliever though.

    ABRP still stays 2 stops for me at ~17kWh/100km consumption. At 100km/hr you should get away with 1 stop.
    https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=04a5faee-3756-4d74-8e0b-3cfe6bc5ff1d


  • Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭ Quiksilver


    Would be from west limerick, so i would guess i would be able to get away with one stop.


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  • Moderators Posts: 11,973 ✭✭✭✭ Black_Knight


    Quiksilver wrote: »
    Would be from west limerick, so i would guess i would be able to get away with one stop.

    Yup. On a bad cold wet day you might need to stop twice. Only about 10-15 minutes each time, or just slow down a bit. Seems well suited for you, unless you do that trip every week. If you're saying overnight it's grand, but if it's a day trip you'd be spending a good hour of your drive charging.

    Motorway speeds/consumption on a dry day. Limerick - IKEA - Limerick
    https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=aaaff88f-9c53-4488-9ecc-b0a4e84baaea
    3 stops, totaling 1 hour.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    jusmeig wrote: »
    I would like to thank the VW Motor Group and big oil for one of the best funded FUD campaigns in history.

    Go on, your going to have to provide some justification for VAG being behind the battery FUD, they've been in the EV business since 2013, so pretty sure that's just unfounded mud slinging.
    I think it's Toyota with the self charging nonsense who are the biggest guilty party.


  • Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭ Quiksilver


    Yup. On a bad cold wet day you might need to stop twice. Only about 10-15 minutes each time, or just slow down a bit. Seems well suited for you, unless you do that trip every week. If you're saying overnight it's grand, but if it's a day trip you'd be spending a good hour of your drive charging.

    Motorway speeds/consumption on a dry day. Limerick - IKEA - Limerick
    https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=aaaff88f-9c53-4488-9ecc-b0a4e84baaea
    3 stops, totaling 1 hour.

    That Route planner is great.
    Ya it would just be the odd day trip. I sometimes have to travel for work (Wexford and cork sometimes) but will just need to plan beforehand.
    I'm guessing number of people in the car will also drop the range a bit.
    Would a full car have a significant affect?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭ jusmeig


    liamog wrote: »
    Go on, your going to have to provide some justification for VAG being behind the battery FUD, they've been in the EV business since 2013, so pretty sure that's just unfounded mud slinging.
    I think it's Toyota with the self charging nonsense who are the biggest guilty party.

    I don't really have to....do I? Even if I did provide what I think is categorical evidence...it's going to be believed by some, taken as gospel by others...and discredited by others....because this is the internet and a large portion of the population believe the earth is flat.

    From my own observations of VW (up until recently mind you), I see a company that has consistently lied to its customers, and only looks to have "come clean" (pardon the pun) when DieselGate slapped the fines.
    Up until DieselGate they made compliance cars and did not encourage EV sales/adoption -> I don't believe this is the case not, but I do believe they actively invested billions to keep EVs in the ha'penny place. What I said was my opinion, not a fact.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    jusmeig wrote: »
    I don't really have to....do I? Even if I did provide what I think is categorical evidence...it's going to be believed by some, taken as gospel by others...and discredited by others....because this is the internet and a large portion of the population believe the earth is flat.

    It's about 5 years out of date, though as far as I'm aware VW were certainly heavily involved in the diesel problems but I've never seen anything re VW group and spreading rubbish about EVs.

    Putting on my mod hat for a minute, I will point you at the forum charter
    * Back up your statements - if you make a bold statement then please provide some kind of evidence to back up what you are saying.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭ jusmeig


    Quiksilver wrote: »
    Thanks Guys, Think i will start hunting for a 2018 Ioniq. Not a huge fan for the Leafs looks.
    Also sounds like the 28Kwh Ioniq might be better for the likes of long trips to dublin with a 30min stop to top up the coffee and the battery.

    Owned an Ioniq 28 for 2 years -> excellent car.
    Charges fast, plenty of room in the booth.
    There are different trims now, but around 2018 it was just one trim that was basic enough but had LCAS / Traffic aware cruise control etc
    If the newer one had a slightly bigger battery and slightly faster charging I would have bought it over a Model 3.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭ jusmeig


    liamog wrote: »
    Putting on my mod hat for a minute, I will point you at the forum charter

    I thought I had backed it up, with all the stuff above?
    If you don't think that supports my statement, that does not make it wrong.
    I will agree it is off topic -> but you asked that question :D


  • Moderators Posts: 11,973 ✭✭✭✭ Black_Knight


    Quiksilver wrote: »
    I'm guessing number of people in the car will also drop the range a bit.
    Would a full car have a significant affect?

    ABRP (a better route planner) handles that in settings. I threw in 300kg of extra load, and it suggests another single minute of charging.

    Weather (wind, rain - surface water, temperature) affect your battery/range a lot more than anything else.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    jusmeig wrote: »
    I thought I had backed it up, with all the stuff above?
    If you don't think that supports my statement, that does not make it wrong.
    I will agree it is off topic -> but you asked that question :D

    I've asked you (as a poster not a mod) to provide back up for your statement, and you can't. So I assume that you have an opinion that VW have been behind battery FUD with no evidence. For all their sins re diesel gate, I think a lot of people miss that the e-Golf has sold quite well over the years, and primarily in European markets where it was not necessary to have a compliance car until 2020.

    They are in my list of manufacturers that were proactive on the move to EVs, including BMW, Nissan, and Renault. They had skin in the game before the Korean's got involved in 2016.

    With that in my mind and to tie it back to the OP's question, have you considered an e-Golf, the 2017 and up models came with a bigger battery, and would also suit your requirement. It's probably a nicer interior that the Ioniq, but you do lose the advantage of the faster charging.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭ jusmeig


    liamog wrote: »
    I've asked you (as a poster not a mod) to provide back up for your statement, and you can't. So I assume that you have an opinion that VW have been behind battery FUD with no evidence. For all their sins re diesel gate, I think a lot of people miss that the e-Golf has sold quite well over the years, and primarily in European markets where it was not necessary to have a compliance car until 2020.

    I'm sorry I posted, I will find a different tree house to hang out in :D


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