Foreign reg rental in Ireland

JustARandomGuy

Hi boys and girls, it's a simple thread with a big question that has wrecked my head for a while now - I've seen this happen in mainland Europe in a lot of countries.

Let's skip over the discussion on VRT and motor tax evasion as I'm highly aware this will pop up.

I'm interested in knowing what would happen if I was to long term rent out a car in a foreign country, in this example Poland as I live here currently and drove to Ireland for work? The car isn't in my name, the insurance isn't in my name, but as per the basic laws, I'm covered and allowed to drive the car.

How would that work then, apart from the obvious constant harassment from the Gardai? I can't VRT the car and register it as it isn't mine, but then legally it can't be on the emerald isle for more than 30 days?

elperello

Are you talking about leasing or renting the car?

JustARandomGuy

Actually, for the sake of discussion, let's say both would be possible, but if it's on a lease here, it's still registered to the lease company (like LeasePlan).

elperello

I expect a condition of either contract would be that you comply with the laws and regulations of any country you take the car to.

Leasing or rental companies will not want their valuable asset impounded in another country.

mikeecho

This document should answer a lot if not most of your questions.

https://www.vrt.ie/faq/temporary-exemptions-foreign-registered-vehicles/

As for crossing an international border .. last time I rented in Germany, I was asked if I would be leaving the country with it, and if I was, there would be an extra charge, and a limit on how long it could be out of the country for.

(I accidentally entered Austria for about 20k)

colm_c

Lot's of hypothetical here.

OP, what exactly are you trying to do?

Are you trying to be a 'cute hoor' so you can drive a car here on the cheap, or is there actually some valid reason for this scenario?

The former will no doubt bite you in the ass to save a few quid.

Can't see any reason for the latter IMO.

galwaytt

Well, if you're an Irish resident for tax purposes, you're allowed drive a foreign reg vehicle in the first place, so there's that....

JustARandomGuy

colm_c wrote: »

Lot's of hypothetical here.

OP, what exactly are you trying to do?

Are you trying to be a 'cute hoor' so you can drive a car here on the cheap, or is there actually some valid reason for this scenario?

The former will no doubt bite you in the ass to save a few quid.

Can't see any reason for the latter IMO.

Pure curiosity as it happens all the time on the continent and no one cares. Also, a LHD car wouldn’t be too comfortable to daily.

JustARandomGuy

mikeecho wrote: »

This document should answer a lot if not most of your questions.

https://www.vrt.ie/faq/temporary-exemptions-foreign-registered-vehicles/

As for crossing an international border .. last time I rented in Germany, I was asked if I would be leaving the country with it, and if I was, there would be an extra charge, and a limit on how long it could be out of the country for.

(I accidentally entered Austria for about 20k)

“Any imported vehicle which is owned by or registered in the name of a non-resident person“

That’s the issue, technically the car is neither owned nor registered in the name of the renter.

It’s basically a massive gray area, especially in a country so focused on punishing anyone with a car

mikeecho

JustARandomGuy wrote: »

“Any imported vehicle which is owned by or registered in the name of a non-resident person“

That’s the issue, technically the car is neither owned nor registered in the name of the renter.

It’s basically a massive gray area, especially in a country so focused on punishing anyone with a car

Tell us please.. what's the loop hole you're looking for.?

What's the end point. ?


*Edit.

Owner is a strange one in Irish law, the person in control of the vehicle can be determined as the owner, in the event of damage being caused.

Normal everyday language and legalise speak, can be polar opposites... Even though it's the same words.

JustARandomGuy

mikeecho wrote: »

Tell us please.. what's the loop hole you're looking for.?

What's the end point. ?

There isn’t a loophole that I’m looking for, I was wondering if something that’s normal on the continent would be possibly doable in Ireland but once again this country does not disappoint!

This can now be locked.

Duarte1974

I heard a year or two back that people were leasing cars in the UK (where it is a more common Practice) and driving them in Ireland. I think it may actually be a loop hole in the law.

mikeecho

JustARandomGuy wrote: »

There isn’t a loophole that I’m looking for, I was wondering if something that’s normal on the continent would be possibly doable in Ireland but once again this country does not disappoint!

This can now be locked.

I know of guys driving rentals between NL and Germany that have had their car impounded by the douane for driving rentals cross border..

Fk'ing nightmare to sort out.

JustARandomGuy

mikeecho wrote: »

I know of guys driving rentals between NL and Germany that have had their car impounded by the douane for driving rentals cross border..

Fk'ing nightmare to sort out.

I know a lad who has a Czech reg car in Antwerp and he had no issues with the law over the last 3 years

colm_mcm

There's a guy works down the chip shop swears he's Elvis

elperello

I know a lad who drove a UK registered car here for more than 3 years and had no issue with the law.

All that proves is that he escaped detection for 3 years.

You need to know what the law is not provide examples of people getting away with something.

(Car passed 30 years old last year and now all legal. ZV plates and all.)

mikeecho

JustARandomGuy wrote: »

I know a lad who has a Czech reg car in Antwerp and he had no issues with the law over the last 3 years

Is he crossing the NL /D border every morning ?

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

On a very serious note, all piss taking aside.

I used to work with a lad up until very recently

Here's in here Ireland with his polish registered car. Which he bought new many many years ago, and amazingly it was a right hand drive fiat stilo or something.

But for many many years has been driving here on Gdansk plates.

That's wrong because he is the owner but at the same time he hasn't been made change the car yet.

Charles Babbage

Duarte1974 wrote: »

I heard a year or two back that people were leasing cars in the UK (where it is a more common Practice) and driving them in Ireland. I think it may actually be a loop hole in the law.

No, it is not a loophole, the Revenue can seize the car if it is driven by an Irish resident.

tabby aspreme

There is a Polish lady living and working locally, driving the same PL plated BMW for at least 10 years, local Gardai would be well aware of the car, so there must be some workaround on registering it

Charles Babbage

tabby aspreme wrote: »

There is a Polish lady living and working locally, driving the same PL plated BMW for at least 10 years, local Gardai would be well aware of the car, so there must be some workaround on registering it

This might be laziness, but the lady is not evading VRT as she moved here, the OP is evading VRT.

redcup342

JustARandomGuy wrote: »

Hi boys and girls, it's a simple thread with a big question that has wrecked my head for a while now - I've seen this happen in mainland Europe in a lot of countries.

Let's skip over the discussion on VRT and motor tax evasion as I'm highly aware this will pop up.

I'm interested in knowing what would happen if I was to long term rent out a car in a foreign country, in this example Poland as I live here currently and drove to Ireland for work? The car isn't in my name, the insurance isn't in my name, but as per the basic laws, I'm covered and allowed to drive the car.

How would that work then, apart from the obvious constant harassment from the Gardai? I can't VRT the car and register it as it isn't mine, but then legally it can't be on the emerald isle for more than 30 days?

The Rental/Leasing company won't care what you do. (Usually, they will have restrictions on where you can go with the car, it may be forbidden or you have to pay extra for Insurance)

However local regulations apply.

If you rent a car from Sixt for example in Germany on German plates and drive in the Netherlands while you are registered there and get stopped by the Douane that car is going on the back of a Transporter until you pay the BPM. (unless you applied for an exemption in advance)

E.G. I can take my German plated car to Ireland and drive away fine (as I don't live there) as soon as an Irish resident drives it then Revenue can demand VRT.

Doesn't really matter who owns the car in the end.

jumbone

galwaytt wrote: »

Well, if you're an Irish resident for tax purposes, you're allowed drive a foreign reg vehicle in the first place, so there's that....

presume you're missing a 'not' somewhere but...

...unless its hired to you or owned by your employer

boombang

I think the law is specifically structured in such a way to prevent Irish nationals driving foreign rentals here. I remember looking into it as I wondered was there a way of registering a car to a company I owned in the North and "leasing" it to myself in the south to avoid heavy VRT on large engined vehicles. I thought this might fly under free provision of services across the EU (before Brexit), but VRT is is done is such a way to prevent this.

jumbone

boombang wrote: »

I think the law is specifically structured in such a way to prevent Irish nationals driving foreign rentals here. I remember looking into it as I wondered was there a way of registering a car to a company I owned in the North and "leasing" it to myself in the south to avoid heavy VRT on large engined vehicles. I thought this might fly under free provision of services across the EU (before Brexit), but VRT is is done is such a way to prevent this.

No need for a bogus lease, this is permitted if you are employed by your NI company:

A State resident who is employed by an employer established in another Member State is
eligible to use Category B & C vehicles registered in another Member State (either owned or
leased by the employer) for business/private use in the State.

I note that this includes private use, not sure how that works with BIK

R.O.R

jumbone wrote: »

...unless its hired to you or owned by your employer

Only in a very few exceptional circumstances, and only with Revenue approval.

There are some drivers, living in border counties, driving UK/NI registered vehicles legally. These vehicles are provided by their employers and are used predominantly in NI for business purposes.

Revenue issue a letter of exemption for these drivers, which they have to keep with them all the time, or risk having the car taken from them by Revenue.

R.O.R

jumbone wrote: »

No need for a bogus lease, this is permitted if you are employed by your NI company:

A State resident who is employed by an employer established in another Member State is
eligible to use Category B & C vehicles registered in another Member State (either owned or
leased by the employer) for business/private use in the State.

I note that this includes private use, not sure how that works with BIK

Category B&C vehicles are commercial - different legislation (for some reason) around commercial vehicles being driven for work in ROI, if registered in UK/NI.

jumbone

R.O.R wrote: »

Category B&C vehicles are commercial - different legislation (for some reason) around commercial vehicles being driven for work in ROI, if registered in UK/NI.

Ah I assumed it was cat B as in a cat B driving licence

galwaytt

galwaytt wrote: »

Well, if you're an Irish resident for tax purposes, you're allowed drive a foreign reg vehicle in the first place, so there's that....

sorry, just spotted a typo and too late to edit.

It should read: Well, if you're an Irish resident for tax purposes, you're not allowed drive a foreign reg vehicle in the first place, so there's that....

kaahooters

so the specific point here is

long term rent (im presuming off hertz, avis ect)

ring them and ask, i know there will be restrictions on the size of vehicle, and i know you can bring a car between ireland and the UK (rented either side) after that youll ahve to get details from them.

Marcusm

kaahooters wrote: »

so the specific point here is

long term rent (im presuming off hertz, avis ect)

ring them and ask, i know there will be restrictions on the size of vehicle, and i know you can bring a car between ireland and the UK (rented either side) after that youll ahve to get details from them.

When you go to look you will find most of the GB rental places will not even permit travel to NI except for an additional fee. NI places likely permit travel across the Island but I doubt that there will be any significant savings in scope not to mind the general exposure to criminal sanctions.

kaahooters

Marcusm wrote: »

When you go to look you will find most of the GB rental places will not even permit travel to NI except for an additional fee. NI places likely permit travel across the Island but I doubt that there will be any significant savings in scope not to mind the general exposure to criminal sanctions.

Yea you can't bring it to NI, but you can to the Republic from gb

Marcusm

kaahooters wrote: »

Yea you can't bring it to NI, but you can to the Republic from gb

Not under the terms of most GB rentals - it cannot be moved from GB. There are some exceptions (Europcar or Enterprise IIRC) but otherwise they are free to limit the movement of their vehicles.

kaahooters

Marcusm wrote: »

Not under the terms of most GB rentals - it cannot be moved from GB. There are some exceptions (Europcar or Enterprise IIRC) but otherwise they are free to limit the movement of their vehicles.

so, in your opinion, which is it?

Hetrz do allow it with restrictions.

enterprise allow it , with restrictions and an extra fee.

make up your mind.

as ive mentioned, the OP need to contact the rental company and see if its permitted.

Charles Babbage

kaahooters wrote: »

so the specific point here is

long term rent (im presuming off hertz, avis ect)

ring them and ask, i know there will be restrictions on the size of vehicle, and i know you can bring a car between ireland and the UK (rented either side) after that youll ahve to get details from them.

No competent rental company will allow an ROI resident rent a car and bring it here, as Revenue could seize it. They could allow a person resident elsewhere do so, but they would likely only allow a short visit of a holiday nature, even within a longer rental period.

grogi

mikeecho wrote: »

This document should answer a lot if not most of your questions.

https://www.vrt.ie/faq/temporary-exemptions-foreign-registered-vehicles/

As for crossing an international border .. last time I rented in Germany, I was asked if I would be leaving the country with it, and if I was, there would be an extra charge, and a limit on how long it could be out of the country for.

(I accidentally entered Austria for about 20k)

It is not about short term rental, but more PCP like rental.

ironclaw

Driven a lot of rentals cars over the past few years, all of them have clauses that either:

- You can't bring the car into another country at all .

- You can bring it into another country but only when you tell them first and there may be a charge.

- You can bring it into another country for a certain period of time e.g. 30 days.

Highly depends on the country you start the rental in and how that country is connected to others e.g. Land borders, Ferrys etc.

Another barrier is the rental cap, most companies won't rent you a car for an extended period of time e.g. More than 60 days, and if they will, you may need to return to a rental center during that period to renew the agreement (This happened us in the States with very long rentals)

Lastly, there is no way it's economical to do this, at least for a rental. By the time you insure it, even if you buy your own coverage (Which will be more expensive to cover this and usually have caps on the maximum rental time per rental) and get it here and back (Fuel bills), you'll be in the red versus buying a beater.

Marcusm

kaahooters wrote: »

so, in your opinion, which is it?

Hetrz do allow it with restrictions.

enterprise allow it , with restrictions and an extra fee.

make up your mind.

as ive mentioned, the OP need to contact the rental company and see if its permitted.

Your earlier post indicated no limits; my post (which you challenged) asserted that it was not commonly permissible, an assertion which your post agreed with rather than contradicted. I think you’ll find that I have been consistent in my posts whereas yours are patently self-contradictory! If one of us has to make up his/her mind, it is not me!

kaahooters

Marcusm wrote: »

Your earlier post indicated no limits; my post (which you challenged) asserted that it was not commonly permissible, an assertion which your post agreed with rather than contradicted. I think you’ll find that I have been consistent in my posts whereas yours are patently self-contradictory! If one of us has to make up his/her mind, it is not me!

ok.. so my first post was ring and ask, but i know theres restrictions.

2nd post stating you cant go to NI.

3rd post was providing examples and for the op to ring and ask the rental company.

how am i contradictory?

so, to be brief, its possible, ring and ask, but theyll restrict you if allowed.

CiniO

So are you saying that when I was ROI resident w years ago, and I rented a car in Belfast (NI reg) and drove it down to ROI for 5 days, then I was liable for prosecution/car impoundment in ROI because of that.
Renter was allowing travel to ROI in their T&C

grogi

CiniO wrote: »

So are you saying that when I was ROI resident w years ago, and I rented a car in Belfast (NI reg) and drove it down to ROI for 5 days, then I was liable for prosecution/car impoundment in ROI because of that.
Renter was allowing travel to ROI in their T&C

For 5 days no. More than a month AFAIR.

tcawley29

So let me ask this one. Since I'm living in the states, what is to stop me going up the north on my next trip, buying something and never paying vrt?

Just pay a years policy each time I come home and cancel when I'm leaving (usually 3 weeks later or so)

galwaytt

tcawley29 wrote: »

So let me ask this one. Since I'm living in the states, what is to stop me going up the north on my next trip, buying something and never paying vrt?

Just pay a years policy each time I come home and cancel when I'm leaving (usually 3 weeks later or so)

You'll just have to deal with HMRC and their own rules on proving residency, licencing, MoT, SORN, insurance etc.

Not as straightforward as you think ....

As the man said, "sure if it was that easy we'd all be at it..."....

grogi

tcawley29 wrote: »

So let me ask this one. Since I'm living in the states, what is to stop me going up the north on my next trip, buying something and never paying vrt?

Just pay a years policy each time I come home and cancel when I'm leaving (usually 3 weeks later or so)

From legal point of view nothing. As a non resident of the state, you are not required to have paid vrt.

You will have issues obtaining insurance, but it is policy based, not law.

Charles Babbage

grogi wrote: »

For 5 days no. More than a month AFAIR.

Not for 5 days either, since he had no intention of importing it. I wonder did Cinio use his ROI address or a Polish one for the paperwork?

Charles Babbage

tcawley29 wrote: »

So let me ask this one. Since I'm living in the states, what is to stop me going up the north on my next trip, buying something and never paying vrt?

Just pay a years policy each time I come home and cancel when I'm leaving (usually 3 weeks later or so)

If you as a non resident want to use a car from outside the State you can, especially if you collect it in NI and travel into the ROI each time.
This thread is premised on the OP bring resident.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

I was on the revenue website a little while ago and there is a section there for VRT for an EU leased vehicle.

Might want to ask them about it OP as there seems to be a section on it covering it

Marcusm

tcawley29 wrote: »

So let me ask this one. Since I'm living in the states, what is to stop me going up the north on my next trip, buying something and never paying vrt?

Just pay a years policy each time I come home and cancel when I'm leaving (usually 3 weeks later or so)

If you tell the truth about where you actually live you will not be able to get insurance. If you try to insure it in ROI on U.K. plates it will be reported after 30 days. If you try to insure it in NI you will equally have to give a false address and that offence of lying to obtain insurance is taken more seriously in the U.K. all in all, it won’t work well.

tcawley29

Marcusm wrote: »

If you tell the truth about where you actually live you will not be able to get insurance. If you try to insure it in ROI on U.K. plates it will be reported after 30 days. If you try to insure it in NI you will equally have to give a false address and that offence of lying to obtain insurance is taken more seriously in the U.K. all in all, it won’t work well.

Although I'm not doing it regardless I was just curios.
As regards a policy over 30 days, that would never be an issue.
I have an address I could use in ROI but not NI, either way it doesn't matter as I won't be doing this.

At the end of the day it's way handier to land into DUB or SNN and get a nice rental (usually new) and no liability for maintenance of the vehicle.

Marcusm

tcawley29 wrote: »

Although I'm not doing it regardless I was just curios.
As regards a policy over 30 days, that would never be an issue.
I have an address I could use in ROI but not NI, either way it doesn't matter as I won't be doing this.

At the end of the day it's way handier to land into DUB or SNN and get a nice rental (usually new) and no liability for maintenance of the vehicle.

An address you can use is not sufficient. For the U.K. at least, it would be an offence under section 174 Road Traffic Act 1988 and would be at such a level that the insurance would be void or voidable in the event of a claim. A claim of residence would be a critical part of assessing the insurance risk.