Hub and Casette Question

harringtonp

My gears changes are jumping around a bit and I'm trying to eliminate reasons. I'm running a 10 speed cassette on a hub designed for 11 speed.

I have the 10s black adapter on the hub behind the largest cog. Question is does a silver spacer like the one seperating the middle sized single flat cogs usually go behind this cog too ?

crosswords

Open to correction on this but:

Usually one spacer (adaptor) is enough to sit between the hub flange and the cassette (behind the largest cog).

Make sure this spacer is metal, as the plastic ones can flex under shifting.

The metal spacers on shimano are usually silver, and plastic ones are usually black.

Try taking out the black spacer, and replacing with the silver metal one.

harringtonp

Thanks, sounds like I have it right. The black is thicker and I need it because I'm fitting a 10 speed cassette. It was the silver I was wondering about which I currently have on

crosswords

Ok, but the material is the important bit. It should not be plastic. It needs to be metal.

I actually bent a cassette cog once because I had been using a plastic spacer.

It can cause your gears to slip too.

G1032

Shimano have a 1mm spacer that sits behind their 10 speed cassettes (105 and up, not on Tiagra I think).
So you'll need the 10 speed converter spacer and the 1mm Shimano one if you're putting a 10spd Shimano cassette on an 11 speed hub

However, I've run 10 speed cassettes on 11 speed hubs both with and without that 1mm spacer and it made no difference either way. Unless the cassette is not fully tight on the hub I can't imagine this spacer, on or off, is causing issues.

How do you mean jumping around a bit?? Are any of the cogs on the cassette worn? Is the chain worn?

harringtonp

G1032 wrote: »

Shimano have a 1mm spacer that sits behind their 10 speed cassettes (105 and up, not on Tiagra I think).
So you'll need the 10 speed converter spacer and the 1mm Shimano one if you're putting a 10spd Shimano cassette on an 11 speed hub

However, I've run 10 speed cassettes on 11 speed hubs both with and without that 1mm spacer and it made no difference either way. Unless the cassette is not fully tight on the hub I can't imagine this spacer, on or off, is causing issues.

How do you mean jumping around a bit?? Are any of the cogs on the cassette worn? Is the chain worn?

Have replace chain and cable with brand new ones and the cassette with a newer one. Can get smooth changes going on to larger cogs but coming back down to smaller cogs it can skip a few or have difficulty making the move. Tightened hanger screws and checked that the hanger is straight. Derailleur has been around a while although the spring mechanism seems ok. Ill have a better feel for whether it is good enough next time on the road.

G1032

Sounds like cable is too tight??
Did you replace the outers also? They could be dirty and causing the difficulty shifting back down the cassette

mamax

Check the cable run for tight spots and replace if in doubt, also check and spray gt85 into shifter, had issue with internal routing on carbon bars recently and did both and no issues now.

harringtonp

I didn't replace the outers but as I was feed the new cable through I checked that it could slide easily back and forth through each outer as I fed it

Zen0

When you say you checked the hanger is straight did you use a derailleur alignment tool?

harringtonp

Zen0 wrote: »

When you say you checked the hanger is straight did you use a derailleur alignment tool?

No. It just looked straight. I could move it slightly from side to side so tightened the screws. Will find out tomorrow if gear changing is better.

On my other bike had difficulty switching to big chainring so changed cable. Don't think there was anything wrong with old cable as discovered when putting new one in that the routing slot where it comes through the bottom bracket was caked with dirt. Was hard to clear it out but now rather than having a pin prick hole can put a 5mm allen key through. And guess what, shifting is perfect again. Would never have twigged that as a possible cause.

Zen0

harringtonp wrote: »

No. It just looked straight. I could move it slightly from side to side so tightened the screws. Will find out tomorrow if gear changing is better.

On my other bike had difficulty switching to big chainring so changed cable. Don't think there was anything wrong with old cable as discovered when putting new one in that the routing slot where it comes through the bottom bracket was caked with dirt. Was hard to clear it out but now rather than having a pin prick hole can put a 5mm allen key through. And guess what, shifting is perfect again. Would never have twigged that as a possible cause.

Good to hear it’s sorted. Most of the time I’ve had shifting problems the cable has been the culprit. But in the couple of cases where that wasn’t the issue, doing a derailleur alignment fixed the problem. Unfortunately, I think you need a derailleur hanger alignment tool to check that. Small twists in the hanger won’t be obvious from visual inspection.

harringtonp

Zen0 wrote: »

Good to hear it’s sorted. Most of the time I’ve had shifting problems the cable has been the culprit. But in the couple of cases where that wasn’t the issue, doing a derailleur alignment fixed the problem. Unfortunately, I think you need a derailleur hanger alignment tool to check that. Small twists in the hanger won’t be obvious from visual inspection.

They're cheap enough. Will have to buy a new one and see.

Zen0

harringtonp wrote: »

They're cheap enough. Will have to buy a new one and see.

I have an X Tools one. It’s OK, but if I was buying one again I might spend the money on a better one. The threads on the X Tools one are not that well cut. Unless I grease them beforehand, they won’t engage with the threads on the hanger, and threaten to strip the hanger threads. That being said, it has sorted out shifting problems on two separate bikes once I managed to threads it onto the hanger.

cletus

Zen0 wrote: »

I have an X Tools one. It’s OK, but if I was buying one again I might spend the money on a better one. The threads on the X Tools one are not that well cut. Unless I grease them beforehand, they won’t engage with the threads on the hanger, and threaten to strip the hanger threads. That being said, it has sorted out shifting problems on two separate bikes once I managed to threads it onto the hanger.

Have you tried recutting the threads? They may have been badly cut at factory, or perhaps they were rolled badly. Either way, running a correct sized die down the threads may help

Zen0

cletus wrote: »

Have you tried recutting the threads? They may have been badly cut at factory, or perhaps they were rolled badly. Either way, running a correct sized die down the threads may help

It has occurred to me, but it would require the correct sized die and familiarity with its use, neither of which I have at the moment. A future project perhaps.

I have found X Tools tools generally OK for a lot of casual jobs, so I may have just been unlucky with this one. They are certainly a lot cheaper that the Park Tools equivalents.

cletus

Zen0 wrote: »

It has occurred to me, but it would require the correct sized die and familiarity with its use, neither of which I have at the moment. A future project perhaps.

I have found X Tools tools generally OK for a lot of casual jobs, so I may have just been unlucky with this one. They are certainly a lot cheaper that the Park Tools equivalents.

I've a tap and die set, and the required familiarity. Where are you located?

Zen0

cletus wrote: »

I've a tap and die set, and the required familiarity. Where are you located?

I really appreciate the offer cletus. However, in the current circumstances I’m trying to avoid any unnecessary social contacts. I have no immediate need of the hanger alignment tool. If that changes, I’d be happy to take up your offer if location suits.

harringtonp

Zen0 wrote: »

Good to hear it’s sorted. Most of the time I’ve had shifting problems the cable has been the culprit. But in the couple of cases where that wasn’t the issue, doing a derailleur alignment fixed the problem. Unfortunately, I think you need a derailleur hanger alignment tool to check that. Small twists in the hanger won’t be obvious from visual inspection.

Ordered a replacement hanger and will try it out as its one of the new remaining things left. And if its not that no harm having one in waiting anyway

harringtonp

Fitted the new hanger and it didn't help. Had a good look at frame and it looks fine, nothing looks bent. I had replaced the cable but went back and replaced the cable hosing too.

To recap I can get perfect shifting when going from small cog to large cog. But when coming back down it will often jump 3 cogs at a time. I can get the one I want by shifting back up again.

I put WD40 on the moving parts of the derailleur which is a 5 year old Shimano 105. I'm wondering could it be that the spring mechanism is just too used and weak at this stage ? Does this often happen ? How long do derilleur's last ?

Do the levers affect shifting ? They are 11 years old and came with the bike originally (a Planet X SL Pro Carbon). They are however Shimano Durace and are silky smooth. I never had problems with them and their feel has not changed over the years

cletus

When you shift, and it skips two or three cogs, what exactly has happened? Is it one push on the shifter, and it skips straight away, or is it a push on the shifter, nothing happens, a second push and then the skip

harringtonp

cletus wrote: »

When you shift, and it skips two or three cogs, what exactly has happened? Is it one push on the shifter, and it skips straight away, or is it a push on the shifter, nothing happens, a second push and then the skip

You got me thinking now. Will have to try it out more but would say a second push and it skips. Shifter feels smooth but I'm now wondering could the issue be with it. Going to try a club mates spare rear derailleur tomorrow so will have a better idea after that.

hesker

harringtonp wrote: »

You got me thinking now. Will have to try it out more but would say a second push and it skips. Shifter feels smooth but I'm now wondering could the issue be with it. Going to try a club mates spare rear derailleur tomorrow so will have a better idea after that.

Sounds like a shifter problem. Your RD doesn’t dictate the jumps. It just has a spring that pulls the derailleur to smaller cogs and thus provides constant tension. If you disconnect the cable at the RD you’ll see how it works.

I believe people have fixed Shimano shifters by rinsing the mechanism out. Google is your friend.

triggermortis

Definitely sounds like a shifter problem to me too. I'd peel the rubber hood right back and have a good look at where the cable runs through the shifter. I've had problems in the past that were caused by the debris from frayed cables jamming up the shifter slightly.
I cleaned it by using the new cable put into the cable run halfway, putting some heavier oil on the cable and pulling it back and forward through the run a few times. Dirt and bits of old cable will stick to the oil and can be wiped away with a cloth. A spray lube is also good for getting into places you cant see too well

harringtonp

Thanks guys. Tried out another derailleur with a strong spring and even though it helped a bit, there is still an underlying problem

In 1st (biggest) cog shift and nothing happens, shift again and it jumps to the 2nd but trying to come off it to the 3rd, shift a 3rd time and it goes to the 4th where it should be. With further shifts its better but with the final shift down to the smallest cog it needs some pressure on the pedals to change.

Will have a look at the shifter, that's the last thing left

G1032

Are you absolutely sure the cable isn't too tight? Loosen off the tension a bit and see if shifting down the cassette improves. It just sounds exactly like what you'd expect if the cable was too tight

harringtonp

Bingo. Shifter was the problem. Had an old ultegra shifter lying around (had to buy a replacement set for my other bike a few years back but only the front mech was gone) and fitted it this evening. Perfect shifting now both up and down.

Funny that it was the last thing to try but they are a bit of work to replace and expensive if you don't have a spare. So in the investigation process I've replaced chain, cables, housing, rear derailleur and hanger.

In one sense it should have been a bit more obvious. The shifter was 11 years old but it was Durace, still silky smooth and soft and shifting to lower gears was perfect. Before the shifter went on my other bike it got really stiff so the writing was on the wall in that case. And finally it is not something others usually suggest as the source of a shifting problem. It was suggested here but practically everything else was eliminated at that stage.

cletus

The thing that fixes your problem is always the last thing you try, by default...kinda like finding things in the last place you look

Glad you managed to sort the problem. Great sense of satisfaction in fixing something yourself