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Hybrid recommendations

  • 19-09-2020 5:51pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭ whatever76


    hi there,

    Looking for advise :)

    Currently driving a 1,6 diesel 10 years old so looking to change early in new year all going well - researching hybrid options that will facilitate a weekly Dublin - Cork trip ( not in one day) ; budget ~ 18-20k . Any advice/pointers appreciated as I dont know much about the options out there currently ... still in the old petrol/diesel world cars :P


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Comments

  • Moderators Posts: 11,971 ✭✭✭✭ Black_Knight


    Hybrids do well in start stop type driving. They regenerate power from braking. A Dublin to Cork motorway drive isn't going to benefit from a hybrid.

    What mileage do you do per year? What's your typical weekly drive like?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,028 ✭✭✭ Lantus


    A good diesel still a good bet. What's the rest of weekly drive like?? Short trip mileage vs long trip and total??


  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭ whatever76


    Outside of the Dublin- Cork weekly trip - its just regular short city driving really , odd weekend Spins ... not much else . When I was doing the Dublin/Cork trip before lockdown last year talking approx - 400 miles a week ; 330 of that the Dublin / Cork mileage - so its sounds like any type of hybrid not suiting this type of driving and best stick to Petrol/Diesel for next 5 years anyway ?


  • Moderators Posts: 11,971 ✭✭✭✭ Black_Knight


    whatever76 wrote: »
    Outside of the Dublin- Cork weekly trip - its just regular short city driving really , odd weekend Spins ... not much else . When I was doing the Dublin/Cork trip before lockdown last year talking approx - 400 miles a week ; 330 of that the Dublin / Cork mileage - so its sounds like any type of hybrid not suiting this type of driving and best stick to Petrol/Diesel for next 5 years anyway ?

    Probably, until a good range electric comes into your price range I guess. Worth remembering that those 30k km in electric will probably cost about 3-400 euro a year, Vs the thousands in a petrol/diesel. For a weekly Dublin-Cork though you would really want a 400km range EV. Kona can do it, but second hand they're only starting to show up around 31k.


  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭ whatever76


    cool - thanks for the advice on this ! Bit naive with my budget as well I see :( -!!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,177 ✭✭✭ Kramer


    whatever76 wrote: »
    that will facilitate a weekly Dublin - Cork trip ( not in one day)

    Is that up one day, return the next?
    I.e. would you be overnighting at your destination? If so, could you recharge there?
    whatever76 wrote: »
    When I was doing the Dublin/Cork trip before lockdown last year talking approx - 400 miles a week ; 330 of that the Dublin / Cork mileage

    If that's 528km return with an overnight in Cork, with charging there - even a 13a socket, I'd say consider going full electric. Even an Ioniq 28 might work with just a 10 minute stop at Ionity on the M8. It wouldn't be ideal but you'd get one in budget.
    There's certainly no need for a diesel.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,109 ✭✭✭ championc


    Either go full EV or don't bother. Hybrid's have added complexity given both tech merged, and most have larger ICE's to cover generation etc, and PHEV's have lower power than BEV.

    I stand corrected but I also believe that the charging rate of a PHEV at public AC chargers is at granny charger speed


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,096 ✭✭✭ kanuseeme


    Most Phev's charge at 3.7 kw, smaller battery means 2-3 hours its full,

    Toyota have made hybrids for 20 years or so and are known to be bullet proof,

    A Toyota hybrid will give around 4.5 l/100 km or 60 mpg, mixed driving, slightly less on motorway but its not bad for a petrol engine.

    A Niro phev will do 50 km on battery and then acts as a hybrid giving around 5 l / 100 km, see here https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=111052681&postcount=106

    https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202009073426738?fuel-type=Hybrid%20%E2%80%93%20Petrol%2FElectric%20Plug-in&price-to=19000&radius=1500&advertising-location=at_cars&price-from=16000&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=Used&make=KIA&sort=price-asc&maximum-seats=7&postcode=ls298jn&page=1

    £17,666

    Niro hybrid

    https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/201910223587433?fuel-type=Hybrid%20%E2%80%93%20Petrol%2FElectric&fuel-type=Hybrid%20%E2%80%93%20Petrol%2FElectric%20Plug-in&year-from=2018&advertising-location=at_cars&maximum-mileage=40000&radius=1500&maximum-seats=7&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=Used&make=KIA&price-to=19000&price-from=16000&sort=price-asc&model=NIRO&postcode=ls298jn&page=1

    £16,000

    Phev's with small engines that are fast 0-60 in c. 7's

    https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202009113614706?advertising-location=at_cars&radius=1500&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=Used&fuel-type=Hybrid%20%E2%80%93%20Petrol%2FElectric%20Plug-in&maximum-seats=7&year-from=2020&make=BMW&sort=price-asc&model=2%20SERIES%20ACTIVE%20TOURER&postcode=ls298jn&page=1
    https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202008122378696?advertising-location=at_cars&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=Used&radius=1500&price-from=16000&fuel-type=Hybrid%20%E2%80%93%20Petrol%2FElectric%20Plug-in&sort=price-asc&price-to=19000&maximum-seats=7&postcode=ls298jn&page=1

    Best of luck with your purchase.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,530 ✭✭✭ whippet


    championc wrote: »
    Either go full EV or don't bother. Hybrid's have added complexity given both tech merged, and most have larger ICE's to cover generation etc, and PHEV's have lower power than BEV.

    I stand corrected but I also believe that the charging rate of a PHEV at public AC chargers is at granny charger speed

    Not true .. @3.7 my PHEV will charge to full in 3 hours 10mins .. giving 48km EV range. 250bhp and with Xtraboost close to 290bhp when needed ... so unless you are in Tesla there isn’t BEVs at that power range.


  • Moderators Posts: 11,971 ✭✭✭✭ Black_Knight


    whippet wrote: »
    Not true .. @3.7 my PHEV will charge to full in 3 hours 10mins .. giving 48km EV range. 250bhp and with Xtraboost close to 290bhp when needed ... so unless you are in Tesla there isn’t BEVs at that power range.

    Think he was referring to the electric power of a phev, rather than the combined power. Bit of a mute point for motorway driving though.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,109 ✭✭✭ championc


    I suppose the proper question for the OP is "why do you want a Hybrid ?". People hear this magic hybrid word and think it's some form of fantastic eco friendly machine, whereas it seems to me that PHEV ICE (internal combustion engine) are getting bigger and bigger. I read that the new Ford Kuga PHEV will have a 2.5 litre petrol engine.


  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭ whatever76


    thanks everyone for replies on this !

    I guess I am still getting up to speed on Hybrids/PHEV etc and whats out there so sorry if not up to spec on the tech . Ill be looking to change my car next few months and with weekly motorway commute Dublin- Cork I am sussing out do I have options to change from Petrol/Diesel within my 20k budget now or am I best wait another couple of years


  • Moderators Posts: 11,971 ✭✭✭✭ Black_Knight


    Diesel hasn't been getting much love these days, maybe there's value out there.

    Petrol will cost your mileage I'd guess.

    Hybrid won't help you out on your motorway drives

    Electric would save you oodles, but not in budget yet.

    Imo, get something which has lost its most rapid period of depreciation (over 3 years old) and save a few quid there. Then put whatever you've saved from your 20k into your electric car fund in a few years time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 634 ✭✭✭ Dayor Knight


    championc wrote: »
    I suppose the proper question for the OP is "why do you want a Hybrid ?". People hear this magic hybrid word and think it's some form of fantastic eco friendly machine, whereas it seems to me that PHEV ICE (internal combustion engine) are getting bigger and bigger. I read that the new Ford Kuga PHEV will have a 2.5 litre petrol engine.

    Can't agree with you there. VW Golf GTE has a very efficient 1.4 petrol engine combined with the batteries for 200+ hp.
    Current version has 60km range quoted for battery. Maybe 40 in real life. If that covers your daily commute then you can drive emissions free day to day in the city and still have the range offered by the efficient i.c.e. when you need it.
    That's not insignificant from an eco perspective, and will suit some ideally.
    There are pro and cons for hybrids versus full bev.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,109 ✭✭✭ championc


    Diesel hasn't been getting much love these days, maybe there's value out there.

    Petrol will cost your mileage I'd guess.

    Hybrid won't help you out on your motorway drives

    Electric would save you oodles, but not in budget yet.

    Imo, get something which has lost its most rapid period of depreciation (over 3 years old) and save a few quid there. Then put whatever you've saved from your 20k into your electric car fund in a few years time.

    Excellent advice.

    Will you be returning from the Dublin - Cork run on the same day ? Would you have a guaranteed location to re-charge each week when at the other end ? You just then need a 2017 or so Full EV (BEV) with a 300km or so range. I'm not sure if or which 2017 models would suit now.

    Mind you, consider the annual running costs when deciding your purchase. The BEV may cost more but charging for a weekly spin to Cork would only be about €5 each way ( on night rate electricity), and toll are half price until mid next year.

    Of course, if you can claim milage for your weekly trip, that's like a rebate towards a monthly loan


  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭ whatever76


    championc wrote: »
    Excellent advice.

    Will you be returning from the Dublin - Cork run on the same day ? Would you have a guaranteed location to re-charge each week when at the other end ? You just then need a 2017 or so Full EV (BEV) with a 300km or so range. I'm not sure if or which 2017 models would suit now.

    Mind you, consider the annual running costs when deciding your purchase. The BEV may cost more but charging for a weekly spin to Cork would only be about €5 each way ( on night rate electricity), and toll are half price until mid next year.

    Of course, if you can claim milage for your weekly trip, that's like a rebate towards a monthly loan


    Yes thanks for the advice Black Knight its how I am thinking now based on the responses to come up a few years in a diesel for now and see again 3/5 years time ( who know my job may change in meantime) . My trip is not a one day trip I be going down on Monday or Tuesday and staying 2 nights max. I can charge in work in cork but just copped no charge point in my home so would have to figure that out too !! thanks again everyone for advice on this ! Learned a lot !!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,096 ✭✭✭ kanuseeme


    LOL BEV hard on. Its a 250 km trip one way point to point, your not leaving much room for any additional trips when you get there, also weather conditions will reduce range, plus you will need access to a proper charger on both ends, a granny charger is not going to cut it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭ innrain


    I was a bit intrigued by the 4.5 l/100km figure and checked the spec from the manufacturer

    https://www.toyota.ie/models/downloads

    C-HR 2.0L page 30 lists fuel economy for WLTP Extra High (which is the kind of driving on motorway ) at 6.4 - 6.5 l/100 km. Interesting enough EPA lists this car at 29mpg combined, approx 8l/100 km
    https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=42145 (would be a different car for US market?)

    Going back to the official figure 45% higher is a bit more than slightly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 511 ✭✭✭ sumo12


    I drive a Toyota Hybrid, the older generation 2 - so a 1.8 litre engine. I travel the country for work, so 50% motorway work and my consumption average is 5.3l per 100km. The previous replies are correct, motorway is not the most efficient place for a hybrid because the engine is running most of the time.

    But still, it depends how you drive a hybrid as to what economy you get from it. The newer generation 3 of the hybrid system such as that in the new Corolla 2019- which I would think is within the OPs budget is even more economical due a better battery and is much nicer to drive as the CVT whining is greatly reduced.

    Yes, mine is not quite as efficient as a diesel, but I've no high pressure pump or injectors, turbo, starter, alternator, fan belts, EGR valve, clogged manifolds or any of that stuff to fix /replace. It's bullet proof reliable, spark plugs every 90k KM, mine is still on original brake pads front and rear after 106k so there is a lot more going for hybrid than you think.

    I don't get why people in Ireland obsess about engine size. What does the size of the engine matter? It's how it's tuned - hybrid engines run Atkinson cycle for efficiency and lower emissions. Means lower power, but this is then complemented by the battery set up. Rav has a 2.5 litre engine and when I was in a dealer I watched people shudder and shake their heads and say "oh no I don't want / can't manage / don't want to drive a 2.5" Nuts!! Same argument when you tell people that a 1.0TSI powers an Octavia, oh no that's not right, I need a bigger engine than that...!


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,069 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    Can't agree with you there. VW Golf GTE has a very efficient 1.4 petrol engine combined with the batteries for 200+ hp.
    Current version has 60km range quoted for battery. Maybe 40 in real life. If that covers your daily commute then you can drive emissions free day to day in the city and still have the range offered by the efficient i.c.e. when you need it.
    That's not insignificant from an eco perspective, and will suit some ideally.
    There are pro and cons for hybrids versus full bev.

    championc asked why do you want a hybrid, when PHEV's are getting better and are suitable for a lot of people. Your response was to disagree because your PHEV has good range and is suitable for a lot of people? I think the two of you may have got wires crossed.

    There is a decent sweet spot for PHEV's, which suits a lot of people if they can charge at home and daily commutes fall inside the usable range.

    Whenever someone asks me about buying a hybrid, I ask a similar question. I don't believe that people should look to specifically buy a hybrid, they should instead look at buying an efficient petrol car.
    If people aren't willing to make the jump to BEV, and they have the capability to install a home charge point, then I tend to push them to explore whether a PHEV will suit their requirements, getting over the hurdle of plugging in at home will help familiarise people with the concept.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,530 ✭✭✭ whippet


    championc wrote: »
    I suppose the proper question for the OP is "why do you want a Hybrid ?". People hear this magic hybrid word and think it's some form of fantastic eco friendly machine, whereas it seems to me that PHEV ICE (internal combustion engine) are getting bigger and bigger. I read that the new Ford Kuga PHEV will have a 2.5 litre petrol engine.

    There are PHEVs with big engines .. the BMW 745le has a 3l petrol and EV range of about 45km. Range Rovers are the same. It’s not just about eco for people. I went PHEV as it suits my driving and desire for a car. 80% of my driving is covered by EV on a day to day basis .. I probably could have gone full electric but when you look at the options for a mid sized saloon, sporty there isn’t many options for BEV apart from the Tesla .. which I considered and really didn’t like it (that’s my opinion .. and I can understand why some people do like them) .. but if I’m dropping over €50k on a car I’ll want to really like it !!

    So PHEV isn’t just all about being green ..


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,096 ✭✭✭ kanuseeme


    innrain wrote: »
    I was a bit intrigued by the 4.5 l/100km figure and checked the spec from the manufacturer

    https://www.toyota.ie/models/downloads

    C-HR 2.0L page 30 lists fuel economy for WLTP Extra High (which is the kind of driving on motorway ) at 6.4 - 6.5 l/100 km. Interesting enough EPA lists this car at 29mpg combined, approx 8l/100 km
    https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=42145 (would be a different car for US market?)

    Going back to the official figure 45% higher is a bit more than slightly.

    https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/toyota/c-hr-2016/18-hybrid

    1.8 litre and a UK website of Real MPG Average from owners of 4.87l /100 km.

    I drove 2 hybrids, I always got around that.

    Phev which I drive now is better for me 0.2 l/ 100 km for this month.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,096 ✭✭✭ kanuseeme


    liamog wrote: »
    championc asked why do you want a hybrid, when PHEV's are getting better and are suitable for a lot of people. Your response was to disagree because your PHEV has good range and is suitable for a lot of people? I think the two of you may have got wires crossed.

    There is a decent sweet spot for PHEV's, which suits a lot of people if they can charge at home and daily commutes fall inside the usable range.

    Whenever someone asks me about buying a hybrid, I ask a similar question. I don't believe that people should look to specifically buy a hybrid, they should instead look at buying an efficient petrol car.
    If people aren't willing to make the jump to BEV, and they have the capability to install a home charge point, then I tend to push them to explore whether a PHEV will suit their requirements, getting over the hurdle of plugging in at home will help familiarise people with the concept.

    His reply is correct, unless championc meant to say " bigger and better" instead of "bigger and bigger" but I doubt it as he was against them from the start " go BEV or not at all" attitude,

    Please inform me of a petrol car that offers better efficiency than a hybrid, constant attitude here of "only BEV's" everything else is not worth talking about or its I hate them or cheaper to run on petrol than electricity, which is true if you use Ionity


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭ 99nsr125


    innrain wrote: »
    I was a bit intrigued by the 4.5 l/100km figure and checked the spec from the manufacturer

    https://www.toyota.ie/models/downloads

    C-HR 2.0L page 30 lists fuel economy for WLTP Extra High (which is the kind of driving on motorway ) at 6.4 - 6.5 l/100 km. Interesting enough EPA lists this car at 29mpg combined, approx 8l/100 km
    https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=42145 (would be a different car for US market?)

    Going back to the official figure 45% higher is a bit more than slightly.

    6 - 7 litres per 100km is correct for real driving purposes


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,914 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Hellrazer


    I drive an Insight and honestly Ive done a fair few long drives in it.

    Best Ive gotten was around 3.2l / 100kms - thats almost 87 mpg - not many diesels do that.

    Problem with Hybrids is people drive them like a normal ICE--If you drive a hybrid you become a Hybrid Driver - -in other words you need to let the electric side of things do its job....not drive it flat out.

    I usually accelerate up to motorway speed,then let off the pedal until it looses 10-15 kmph and then accelerate back up to speed-depending on the road you can get maybe 10-15 kilometres driving before accelerating again. During the coasting part of this way of driving the electric motor is usually in charge of things or is charging the battery keeping fuel use to a minimum.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,069 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    kanuseeme wrote: »
    Please inform me of a petrol car that offers better efficiency than a hybrid, constant attitude here of "only BEV's" everything else is not worth talking about or its I hate them or cheaper to run on petrol than electricity, which is true if you use Ionity

    The point is to ignore whether the car is a hybrid or a non hybrid ICE, and go for the best fuel efficiency if that's what matters to you. Pick the car that suits your need rather than the technology first.

    If you can plug in, weigh up whether a BEV suits your needs, or get a PHEV to cover your daily driving, a pretty even handed approach to recommending a choice of car.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭ 99nsr125


    Hellrazer wrote: »
    I drive an Insight and honestly Ive done a fair few long drives in it.

    Best Ive gotten was around 3.2l / 100kms - thats almost 87 mpg - not many diesels do that.

    Problem with Hybrids is people drive them like a normal ICE--If you drive a hybrid you become a Hybrid Driver - -in other words you need to let the electric side of things do its job....not drive it flat out.

    I usually accelerate up to motorway speed,then let off the pedal until it looses 10-15 kmph and then accelerate back up to speed-depending on the road you can get maybe 10-15 kilometres driving before accelerating again. During the coasting part of this way of driving the electric motor is usually in charge of things or is charging the battery keeping fuel use to a minimum.

    But that's a driving style from hypermiling which originated in regular cars.

    The idea is to give real life figures. Short runs in the city are perfect for EVs, they have no advantage on the motorway infact the smaller engine and extra weight are a disadvantage


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,069 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    99nsr125 wrote: »
    But that's a driving style from hypermiling which originated in regular cars.

    The idea is to give real life figures. Short runs in the city are perfect for EVs, they have no advantage on the motorway infact the smaller engine and extra weight are a disadvantage

    The big disadvantage for BEVs at motorway speeds is the energy storage capacity. Power to weight ratio's are often better or at least the same as a comparable ICE, and weight really only affects the energy required to accelerate the car.

    We had a weekend running a Toyota C-HR, I found it infuriating just how often the engine kicked in, the electric motor was only good for creeping around the car park. That's one thing that PHEVs do much better than a regular hybrid, they can manage a lot more normal driving in full EV mode, without the need to go full crazy hypermiling.


  • Registered Users Posts: 406 ✭✭ cc


    I've an ioniq hybrid 1.6 and getting a solid 4.3l/100km. Couldn't justify the additional outlay compared to fuel savings for the plug in hybrid. Single car family so BEV is out of reach for a few years yet.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,087 ✭✭✭ corks finest


    championc wrote: »
    I suppose the proper question for the OP is "why do you want a Hybrid ?". People hear this magic hybrid word and think it's some form of fantastic eco friendly machine, whereas it seems to me that PHEV ICE (internal combustion engine) are getting bigger and bigger. I read that the new Ford Kuga PHEV will have a 2.5 litre petrol engine.
    I’m on a second hybrid ( went back to hybrid after 6 months ordinary petrol)
    Economy is great, Japanese dependable as always, automatic , loads of extras , low mileage as most Japanese imports are, what’s not to like


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