Expat or Immigrant?

Zookey123

A very interesting read on how the use of the word expat shows the underlying racism within our civilisation. Why do some people have to be put on a pedestal. Professionals in the top of their field from countries in Africa who are brought into the west to work are immigrants but Shauna down the street going to Spain to do some housekeeping is an expat.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2015/mar/13/white-people-expats-immigrants-migration

Yurt2

There's no hard and fast rule for this, but I'd regard expats as someone passing through, even if it is for three or four years. Immigrants come/go to whatever country to settle.

Like it or not, most Europeans in Africa or Asia are less likely to be in for the long-haul and people going the other way are more likely to be seeking to settle in Europe due to (for the most part bar a handful of countries), a higher quality of life.

I'm not upset at either word and generally how they're used.

It cuts both ways though, Europeans who learn the local language, get permanent residence and intend to spend their careers in countries where they are a visible minority are frequently written off as 'blow-ins' and are often treated like they have no stake in society. There's a 'blood and soil' attitude in lots of the non-European world that you're not going to read about in the Guardian.

Identity and immigration is one of the most tricky things to unpick.

paw patrol

The author of the article doesn't grasp the concept that you can't equate what the host country calls a foreigner with what the foreigner calls themselves when they are abroad.



She is equating 2 different things.



It's a weird thing not to get but it's the guardian so it's probably just race-baiting sh1te..

biko

In my mind an expat is someone who intend to return home to their homeland, but is currently working/living in another country.
An emigrant has no intention of returning home.

^^ not actual definitions.

Expat = ex patria (outside their homeland)

Smee_Again

An ex-pat = no of integrating into the host society
Immigrant = host society has an expectation that they integrate.

Duke of Url

I dont see the difference between Expat and Immigrant.

I do believe it tends to be a race thing.

biko

Ex Pat = used to be Irish

JasonStatham

Expat, someone who came in on a professional job/ salary / visa...who was sent here, or coming here temporary.

Immigrant, someone dirt poor, working a minimum wage job, who you probably wouldn't let in if you could get away with it.

Zookey123

biko wrote: »

Ex Pat = used to be Irish

Historically it was used to refer to exiles but nowadays its mainly a substitute word for immigrant that is adopted by people who feel they are above that word.

Zookey123

JasonStatham wrote: »

Expat, someone who came in on a professional job/ salary / visa...who was sent here, or coming here temporary.

Immigrant, someone dirt poor, working a minimum wage job, who you probably wouldn't let in if you could get away with it.

Your clearly living in a bubble if thats what you really think. Or are you just trolling? Hard to tell these days.

KevRossi

Tip: Avoid anybody who, when living in a foreign country describes themselves as an 'Ex-Pat'. Usually totally insufferable people.

biko

Turns out I was right

The term expatriate carries the connotation that the person in question will one day return to his country of origin, or at least wishes to one day return to his country of origin.

An immigrant is a person who leaves his home and travels to another country in order to become a permanent member of the population.

https://grammarist.com/usage/expatriate-vs-immigrant/

Duke of Url

JasonStatham wrote: »

Expat, someone who came in on a professional job/ salary / visa...who was sent here, or coming here temporary.

Ive never heard Irish or people from the UK who retired to spain refer themselves as immigrants.

No Professional job or Salary.

Bob24

As others have said, an expat is someone who moves to a foreign country with the intention to stay there for defined period and then leave.

And an immigrant is someone who is moving to a foreign country with the intent to settle there.

Of course an expat can become an immigrant if after a few years they haven’t returned home and are starting to settle.

Skin colour doesn’t change those definitions.

Yurt2

Zookey123 wrote: »

Historically it was used to refer to exiles but nowadays its mainly a substitute word for immigrant that is adopted by people who feel they are above that word.

I'd disagree strongly. I think there's a high-degree of post-deconstructavist intersectional sociolinguist Foucaultism, or whatever is in vouge at the moment involved in this line of arguement.

It is largely true that Europeans are far more likely to spend short to medium term bursts in other regions of the world and return home, and also far more likely that people entering Europe are here to settle.

The expat / immigration distinction is a fuzzyish one, but not so much that it's not based on reality (and not race as suggested).

KevRossi

biko wrote: »

Turns out I was right


https://grammarist.com/usage/expatriate-vs-immigrant/

So a few members of my family (aunts & uncles) went to the UK in the 50's and 60's, when they were 18-20 years of age. Worked all their lives there and retired back here when they were hitting 70. Became more English than the English themselves in a couple of cases.

Ex-pat or immigrant? They would always have described themselves as 'Irish Immigrants', according to your definition they were 'ex-pats'. They would never have used that word.

And they all intended to come back at some stage, never intended doing the full retirement over there.

biko

Yes, in those days no-one said expat. It's a later British expression.

Zookey123

The term expatriate carries the connotation that the person in question will one day return to his country of origin, or at least wishes to one day return to his country of origin.

That can refer to pretty much anyone leaving their home country for work.

Yurt2

Zookey123 wrote: »

The term expatriate carries the connotation that the person in question will one day return to his country of origin, or at least wishes to one day return to his country of origin.

That can refer to pretty much anyone leaving their home country for work.

We know that a large amount of people coming from the developing world come to Europe to settle or at least intending to settle. The Turkish community in Germany for instance from the 70s could not really be referred to as expats, as by in large they didn't return to Turkey nor did they intend to. They were an immigrant community.

We're dancing on the head of a pin here as we're mostly playing word games with two words that have slightly fuzzy but broadly understood connotations. I don't understand you're trying to hang a race hat on pretty benign terms.

biko

Expat definition fits refugees.

Cordell

biko wrote: »

Expat definition fits refugee definition.

There, FYP.

osarusan

Corpus linguistics needed to answer that question.

Spanish Eyes

It's a Brit thing, and applies to such communities in mainly France and Spain, and most of them are retired there and have no intention of returning.

They would never class themselves as Immigrants. That is reserved for others moving to Blighty.

Ex pat communities are the devil's dinner especially in Spain. Full English, pints of warm beer, bowling competitions, quizzes and karaoke in The Red Lion Pub, never learn to speak Spanish, but expect everyone to speak English, you know yourself.

French immigrants from UK are a tad more upmarket I think. Well they won't get the above anywhere in France anyway, it's do what we do or go back home lol.

As with most terms that is used so often it's gone beyond what a dictionary might try to limit it to be.

For myself, an expat is someone who has decided the live and work abroad for a number of years, usually longer than two. A backpacker doing odd jobs isn't an expat because they usually don't stay abroad for long, and the focus is more on holiday/travelling. The important parts are working and living in a foreign nation.

Even though I have lived abroad for over a decade, I don't usually call myself an expat, although I have sometimes because it's just a really convenient way to get your status across to someone. With the foreign community, in Xi'an, few would call themselves expats, but again, it's something that crops up sometimes in conversation, but really doesn't have a strong definite meaning. I have seen it on official documentation by host countries about residency permits.

As for immigrants, sure, they could call themselves expats, if the intention is to return home at some later stage. Refugees, on the other hand, don't generally leave western nations once they gain citizenship. Still, it's just a label, and anyone could use it about themselves if they wanted.. I can't think of any time I've seen someone challenge another persons usage of it... frankly because it's not a terribly important label. I think it's just the young or those new to living abroad, who are bothered with such things. After a while, you learn that such labels aren't important.

Spleodar

It's most definitely an exceptionalism thing. I remember having this discussion in Canada where someone from England was describing herself as an 'ex-pat' and simultaneously describing someone from Hong Kong as an 'immigrant'. It was purely racist and some notion of British exceptionalism she had as a Canadian told her in no uncertain terms that she was an immigrant too and to stop being so pompous.

I've also seen it in Ireland and in France. For example, a person who was going on about Polish immigrants, who then said "oh and you're not an immigrant really" to a French woman. I've also seen it applied similarly in France, where I was told that I wasn't an immigrant, by someone who'd just been giving out about people from former eastern bloc countries, who'd exactly the same rights to live in France as I have.

It's basically an unofficial term for 'the right kind of immigrant' i.e. racism / xenophobia and value judgements being made about particular nationalities.

You absolutely see it applied, with huge exceptionalism by British communities in Spain and France, who seem to sometimes see themselves as some kind of colonists. Some of the jaw dropping stuff you'd hear from 'expats' in Spain discussing 'the locals' as if they're some kind of exotic annoyance is really just ... wow. Invariably it's from someone who's lived 20+ years in Spain, probably hasn't registered to pay tax, still using an EHIC card and struggles to order a coffee in Spanish and becomes irritated with the fact the barista doesn't speak fluent English.

I lived in Spain and speak Spanish, and would have quite a lot of Spanish friends and I've heard stories from people who did summer jobs in the southern spanish resorts, including things like being told off because they had a Spanish accent or non native English, while living and working IN SPAIN while being Spanish!

I mean could you imagine if the shoe were on the other foot and say some English guy waiting tables in the Lake District was given a lecturing by an obnoxious German woman because his german grammar wasn't good enough for her?

The term in Ireland that drives me nuts is 'non-nationals'. It's an awfully dismissive term and I've seen it applied to EU nationals, particularly from the eastern member states, yet you'd never hear say a Belgian, Swedish, French, or Spanish citizen being referred to as a 'non-national' or have you ever heard an American being called a 'non-national'. It's very much applied in a derogatory way here.

Also what does it even mean? It sounds like someone's stateless.

Spleodar

Spleodar wrote: »

It's most definitely an exceptionalism thing. I remember having this discussion in Canada where someone from England was describing herself as an 'ex-pat' and simultaneously describing someone from Hong Kong as an 'immigrant'. It was purely racist and some notion of British exceptionalism she had as a Canadian told her in no uncertain terms that she was an immigrant too and to stop being so pompous.

It's elitist rather than racism.. since HK isn't the source of a race. And you'll find all manner of terms in HK about westerners living there by the locals.. it's just the way things are.. people use labels, and some are preferred.

It's basically an unofficial term for 'the right kind of immigrant' i.e. racism / xenophobia and value judgements being made about particular nationalities.

If they're the wrong kind of migrant, then it's not about xenophobia, or racism, since, there's a right kind of migrant from the same country. It's about skills, educational backgrounds, criminal records, etc. Whether the migrant can provide something of value to the target society or nation.

You absolutely see it applied, with huge exceptionalism by British communities in Spain and France, who seem to sometimes see themselves as some kind of colonists. Some of the jaw dropping stuff you'd hear from 'expats' in Spain discussing 'the locals' as if they're some kind of exotic annoyance is really just ... wow. Invariably it's from someone who's lived 20+ years in Spain, probably hasn't registered to pay tax, still using an EHIC card and struggles to order a coffee in Spanish and becomes irritated with the fact the barista doesn't speak fluent English.

Ahh well, the British have a long history of a certain superiority complex towards all manner of people.. the Irish know that one quite well.

The term in Ireland that drives me nuts is 'non-nationals'. It's an awfully dismissive term and I've seen it applied to EU nationals, particularly from the eastern member states, yet you'd never hear say a Belgian, Swedish, French, or Spanish citizen being referred to as a 'non-national' or have you ever heard an American being called a 'non-national'. It's very much applied in a derogatory way here.

Also what does it even mean? It sounds like someone's stateless.

Dunno. I've rarely heard it myself in Ireland and the people using it aren't the racist types, nor were the conversations overly negative... The most common is "foreigner". The next would be "migrant' or "Immigrant".

I think you're plugging the racist line a bit too much here. Elitist, is perhaps more appropriate.

Spleodar

Deleted User wrote: »

It's elitist rather than racism.. since HK isn't the source of a race. And you'll find all manner of terms in HK about westerners living there by the locals.. it's just the way things are.. people use labels, and some are preferred.

I was there. You weren't. It was absolutely racism.

The Hongkonger being discussed is a successful professional, who has lived in Vancouver for much of her life and is a naturalised Canadian at this stage. She's of Chinese ethnicity.

The person making the comments about ex-pats vs immigrants was an English woman moaning about Canadian points based immigration making getting permanent status difficult for ex pats, like her brother, while 'immigrants' had no problem at all.

Her value judgement was based on racism and it was blatantly obviously so.

Yurt2

Spleodar wrote: »

I was there. You weren't. It was absolutely racism.

The Hongkonger being discussed is a successful professional, who has lived in Vancouver for much of her life and is a naturalised Canadian at this stage.

The person making the comments about ex-pats vs immigrants was an English woman moaning about Canadian points based immigration making getting permanent status difficult for ex pats, like her brother, while 'immigrants' had no problem at all.

Her value judgement was based on racism and it was blatantly obviously so.

I'd have her as a textbook immigrant then. If she's made a commitment to become a Canadian, she's certainly not in an expat in any reasonable definition of the word.

Spleodar

Spleodar wrote: »

I was there. You weren't. It was absolutely racism.

The Hongkonger being discussed is a successful professional, who has lived in Vancouver for much of her life and is a naturalised Canadian at this stage.

The person making the comments about ex-pats vs immigrants was an English woman moaning about Canadian points based immigration making getting permanent status difficult for her brother, while 'immigrants' had no problem at all.

Her value judgement was based on racism and it was blatantly obviously so.

Nah. The example based on your original details wouldn't have me thinking of racism. I'd be thinking elitism.... just as you ended with "pompous", rather than "racist". so... nah.

Spleodar

Yurt! wrote: »

I'd have her as a textbook immigrant then. If she's made a commitment to become a Canadian, she's certainly not in an expat in any reasonable definition of the word.

The issue was the English exceptionalist, who wasn't ever going to apply that term to herself or her family and very much used the terminology to distinguish in her head 'people like me' and 'everyone else'.

She was also arguing that Irish people weren't ex-pats btw, in that weirdly 'home countries' kind of way. In general I think in Canada anyway, Irish people will tend to wear the immigrant label themselves a lot more easily. Perhaps it's something to do with the old notions of Empire and so on, but it's really bizarre that I've just seen it a lot with a certain cohort from England.

If you've ever travelled around Asia, to places like Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong etc you'll still encounter the 'expat' brigade, many of whom are still somewhat in the model of old colonial notions. It's quite different to a bunch of Irish people in an Irish pub, there's an air of superiority which is just somewhat obnoxious.

bmc58

biko wrote: »

Ex Pat = used to be Irish

No such thing as "used to be Irish".If you're Irish you will always be Irish.And your home will always Ireland should you wish.

Uncle Pierre

bmc58 wrote: »

No such thing as "used to be Irish".If you're Irish you will always be Irish.And your home will always Ireland should you wish.

I reckon that was just a joke.

Actually believed for a good few years myself when I was younger that the term "ex-pat" referred to the Irish abroad only. As in when you're in Ireland, you're a Paddy. And when you're abroad, you're an ex-pat (or more correctly, an ex-Pat).

dwayneshintzy

I know of plenty of English/Australians/Canadians, etc in Hong Kong who are here 7+ years, have permanent residency and have little plan to return "home" any time soon. The vast majority of these people would still call themselves "ex pats".

NSAman

Only time I have ever heard the term ex-pat (and I have lived abroad for many years) is in Spain/Portugal / Africa / Middle East and normally it refers to the English who like to hang around in their own groups and not integrate with the culture they have moved into, let alone the people.

Personally, I have always been an immigrant. Still am.

James Brown

I would imagine immigrants would call fellow countrymen/women 'expats'. It does seem to be more of a western or British associated term, but then you'd need ask an African or Asian if they've an equivalent.

Beasty

I consider myself an "Ex-pat" from a UK perspective and an "immigrant" from an Irish perspective. I find neither term offensive in any way

Brian?

Actually the correct term is now "internationals" according to my company. We had to change the name of the ex pat society, that's really a group of immigrants to the Netherlands.

We still have an ex pat centre in the city centre though, they need to get with the times.

Brian?

Brian? wrote: »

We still have an ex pat centre in the city centre though, they need to get with the times.

Why?

Surely, we should be pushing back at this urge to be offended or traumatized over commonly used phrases, that are essentially neutral. The term expat, by itself isn't positive or negative. It's just a vague label.

Zookey123

Deleted User wrote: »

Why?

Surely, we should be pushing back at this urge to be offended or traumatized over commonly used phrases, that are essentially neutral. The term expat, by itself isn't positive or negative. It's just a vague label.

Thats an interesting choice of words. We are allowed to point out the double standards that this word represents in todays society. Who exactly seems traumatised and offended the people trying to make a point about privilege or those trying their best to ignore it?

Zookey123

Zookey123 wrote: »

Thats an interesting choice of words. We are allowed to point out the double standards that this word represents in todays society. Who exactly seems traumatised and offended the people trying to make a point about privilege or those trying their best to ignore it?

What double standards? It's a word with no particular positive/negative associated with it. Westerners might use it, whereas an Asian person likely has their own word, in one of their own language to describe something similar. The only people looking to show a double standard are those who are looking to get offended on behalf of someone else.

Think of the quote I responded to. "they need to get with the times." I don't see why we need to remove such a word..

And yes... you are allowed to point out the double standards that it represents to you, but then, I'm also allowed to disagree. no?

CageWager

The Baader-Meinhof effect is thriving in 2020. Soon there won’t be a single utterance, gesture or expression that won’t be deemed racist.

Brian?

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why?

Surely, we should be pushing back at this urge to be offended or traumatized over commonly used phrases, that are essentially neutral. The term expat, by itself isn't positive or negative. It's just a vague label.

It was sarcasm. I thought that was obvious.

Zookey123

Deleted User wrote: »

What double standards? It's a word with no particular positive/negative associated with it. Westerners might use it, whereas an Asian person likely has their own word, in one of their own language to describe something similar. The only people looking to show a double standard are those who are looking to get offended on behalf of someone else.

You dont need to be black to call out racism, you dont need to be gay to call out homophobia and you certainly dont need to be an ethnic minority to call out white privilege. This notion of "looking to get offended on behalf of someone else" is a ridiculous one.

Deleted User wrote: »

Think of the quote I responded to. "they need to get with the times." I don't see why we need to remove such a word..

Read the article it clearly explains the double standard associated with the word.

Deleted User wrote: »

And yes... you are allowed to point out the double standards that it represents to you, but then, I'm also allowed to disagree. no?

I have never said you arent allowed to disagree. Dont get this false notion that anyone is interested in censoring you.

Lillyfae

Brian? wrote: »

Actually the correct term is now "internationals" according to my company. We had to change the name of the ex pat society, that's really a group of immigrants to the Netherlands.

We still have an ex pat centre in the city centre though, they need to get with the times.

Ya, expat always strikes me as the middle aged men that used to be around here before the 2008 crisis, with wives and families back home in England who they saw once a month.

I don't use the word expat to refer to myself, because that suggests I believe that there's a difference between me or the Turkish guy who has a kebab shop up the road. I find it elitist and exclusionary. I stay away from anywhere that has "Expat" in the name aswell. I say "International" if I'm speaking to other people in my position or "Foreigner" if I'm speaking to Dutch people. It might sound a bit self deprecating as a translation to English but that's the nuance of the language.

RasTa

An expat is someone who moves abroad and has no intention of learning the local language, mixing with locals and insists on eating and living the exact same way they did in their country of origin but they like the warmer climate

Brian?

Brian? wrote: »

It was sarcasm. I thought that was obvious.

I've grown incapable of detecting it from online forums. Sorry.

Zookey123

Zookey123 wrote: »

You dont need to be black to call out racism, you dont need to be gay to call out homophobia and you certainly dont need to be an ethnic minority to call out white privilege. This notion of "looking to get offended on behalf of someone else" is a ridiculous one.

Just as "white" privilege is ridiculous, but apparently we have to deal with it nonetheless.

Personally, I'd suggest that the people who would advocate against the use of expat would be the same people looking to advocate the concept of white privilege. As such, "people looking to get offended on behalf of someone else"

Read the article it clearly explains the double standard associated with the word.

Opinion piece. Different opinion.

I have never said you arent allowed to disagree. Dont get this false notion that anyone is interested in censoring you.

You raised it... that you were allowed to point it out, even though I didn't say you couldn't... so...