How are classes determined in secondary school

thomasm

Hi There. Can someone explain the process for how children are assigned to classes in secondary school. I know there is an entrance exam but from those results is it for example top 30 in class one, then 31- 60 in class two or is there a different allocation method. Is it standard across schools or is it determined by each school. Thanks in advance.

thefasteriwalk

Each school makes that decision themselves. Increasingly, junior classes tend to be mixed ability - perhaps with the exception of maths.

TheValeyard

Usually mixed ability based around their chosen European lanugage for first year. Then streamed based on ability for maths, English, Irish in second year. But remain with their base group for most other classes, excluding options.

Hangup

Each school decides. Generally, mixed ability in junior classes but graded for Maths.
Senior classes base class is normally determined by English or Maths

jrosen

As other have said each school is different. Usually mixed ability in first.
Some schools stay that way and some stream from 2nd year on where the students are split into higher and ordinary levels.

Treppen

look at drumcondras + entrance, then mix evenly.

But then divide up feeder school if it's a large group coming on from one particular school.

Then consider parents requests, maybe there might have been bullying going on -allegedly- in primary.

I know there's an odd few that still stream , which creates a self fulfilling prophecy... But can be good if you've an academic child in a rough school.

French Toast

In our place it's random in 1st year.

Streamed for English/Irish/Maths in 2nd year going on their performance in 1st year.

thomasm

Thanks all, that’s very helpful

Treppen

French Toast wrote: »

In our place it's random in 1st year.

Streamed for English/Irish/Maths in 2nd year going on their performance in 1st year.

when you say streamed, do you mean a good , average and weak class ? Before they decide on levels?

RealJohn

Treppen wrote: »

I know there's an odd few that still stream , which creates a self fulfilling prophecy... But can be good if you've an academic child in a rough school.

I wonder if this pushes parents to choose better schools though. I mean, I teach in a school in a disadvantaged area, and I wouldn’t send my kids to a school like the one I teach in - disadvantaged area and mixed ability classes. If the classes were streamed, I’d be more likely to consider it, because at least then, the more academic students would have a chance. I personally don’t think mixed ability classes are fair on the students who actually want to do well, when they’re in the same classrooms as the students whose parents only send them to school because it’s safer than allowing them to do their own thing, but don’t care if they actually learn anything or follow the rules.

And then, if the parents who want their kids to do well avoid the schools in disadvantaged areas, are we still going to get the “self fulfilling prophecy”, just based on schools, and even areas, rather than classes?

French Toast

Treppen wrote: »

when you say streamed, do you mean a good , average and weak class ? Before they decide on levels?

Yep that's it pretty much.

Rosita

In my school first year classes are mixed ability - not just randomly so, on the basis of their CATS scores they are allocated evenly across the classes. Stream in second and third year for Irish and Maths

Never heard of schools linking first year classes to English and/or Maths but I am familiar with only three or four schools.

Treppen

French Toast wrote: »

Yep that's it pretty much.

Holy smokes ! So from 2nd year all the way to 6th the students know their place. I wonder is it mixed in subjects for the same student? Like you could be in the average English class but in the Top maths class... Or does it translate that if you're average in one you're probably average across all?

I don't know how I feel about that, I suppose you got a general baseline to improve upon as a teacher. But I think I was an average student in a really good top group I'd be more than likely to push it a bit more, whereas if I was average in an average group I'd take the foot of the gas and do the bare minimum.

GarIT

Treppen wrote: »

Holy smokes ! So from 2nd year all the way to 6th the students know their place. I wonder is it mixed in subjects for the same student? Like you could be in the average English class but in the Top maths class... Or does it translate that if you're average in one you're probably average across all?

I don't know how I feel about that, I suppose you got a general baseline to improve upon as a teacher. But I think I was an average student in a really good top group I'd be more than likely to push it a bit more, whereas if I was average in an average group I'd take the foot of the gas and do the bare minimum.

That's how it was in my school. The whole year had every subject at the same time so you could be in foundation Irish and honours Maths if that was your ability. If I recall correctly, English, Irish and Maths were ranked from 2nd year and the rest from 3rd year.

People regularly changed classes, we had class tests possibly every half term and the top and bottom few (1-3) in each class moved up or down based on those tests. So you're not stuck where you start.

On the other hand if your the smartest kid in a mixed ability class you don't bother because no matter how little you try you're still on top. It's infuriating listening to someone struggle to read when you're looking for a H1 in English.

RealJohn

Treppen wrote: »

But I think I was an average student in a really good top group I'd be more than likely to push it a bit more, whereas if I was average in an average group I'd take the foot of the gas and do the bare minimum.

This was me. My school was streamed and I was down towards the bottom of the top class, so I knew I couldn’t afford to get too lazy, but the way I was, if I’d been at the top of the middle third in a mixed ability class (which I would have been), I’d probably have been a lot more “relaxed” in my attitude, and would probably have done worse overall.

Also, streaming gives weak students the chance to be the best student in a weak class, and have a bit of pride in themselves, whereas they’d have no chance of being the best in a mixed ability class. The ones who are going to be at the bottom of the bottom class are still going to be at the bottom in a mixed ability class.

Treppen

RealJohn wrote: »

This was me. My school was streamed and I was down towards the bottom of the top class, so I knew I couldn’t afford to get too lazy, but the way I was, if I’d been at the top of the middle third in a mixed ability class (which I would have been), I’d probably have been a lot more “relaxed” in my attitude, and would probably have done worse overall.

Also, streaming gives weak students the chance to be the best student in a weak class, and have a bit of pride in themselves, whereas they’d have no chance of being the best in a mixed ability class. The ones who are going to be at the bottom of the bottom class are still going to be at the bottom in a mixed ability class.

I suppose it's much the same as when they introduced common levels for junior cert.

RealJohn

Treppen wrote: »

I suppose it's much the same as when they introduced common levels for junior cert.

Well that was partly to force mixed ability subjects on schools that weren’t doing mixed ability classes, I suspect, but it’s not a move I actually oppose. I’d prefer a case where they just said “this is all the stuff they need to know, and their result will be a reflection of what they know”. No confusion about whether an A at ordinary level is like a D at higher level (or that sort of thing). Just a single indicator of where you srr the end by comparison to everyone else.