Calculated Grades - how much have goalposts moved?

highly1111

Hi

I'm hoping that someone can help me with a quick query but I'm overloaded with information and can't find a straight answer.

I understood in May that the students would be able to see the mark and grade predicted to them by their teachers - but not the ranking.

Now it appears that they will have access to mark, grade and rank.

Am I correct or is my original information incorrect? Has there been any union reaction to this?

Thanks

mirrorwall14

On that note, surely they are just telling the student they came 14th in the class. Tell me they are not issuing them the whole list.....??

JDMC2

Oh I doubt they’ll hand them the full list, that would surely break GDPR rules.

Treppen

To be quite Frank it's all a 5hitshow. Nobody knows really as it was never written definitely. Everybody made different pronouncements but they were all assuming their version was correct

For example:

There is a discrepancy/ambiguity between what parents/students were told in May https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/6985d-calculated-grades-a-guide-for-parents-and-guardians-of-leaving-certificate-students-2020/?fbclid=IwAR0rVvFecLnJqOFrN3kwMvLpn-boJ3Ps-com1tje6BlwEcqlkdDguh12ODg

Can a student see the estimated result that the school submitted for them?

Yes. After the results are issued by the Department of Education and Skills, students will be able to see a record of their individual percentage mark and ranking that the school has given to them.

When they say "after" are they talking about appeals, or are they said "after they issue the results" and the students read them for the first time.

..... And what was in the circular 37/2020

"19. Issue of provisional results
After the standardisation process, the calculated marks will be converted into calculated grades, and these grades will be issued to candidates. The calculated grades will be expressed in the same manner as currently applies to Leaving Certificate grades – Higher level grade 1, "

It just says the calculated grades only, will be issued to students.
https://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/Circular%2037-%202020%20-%20Implementation%20of%20Calculated%20Grades%20Model%20For%20Leavin___.pdf

But when it comes down to it on the day there would be mayhem if they issued 2 grades and a ranking in their results. But then again the department would like to put that mayhem back on teachers ASAP.

RealJohn

I can’t imagine they’ll be allowed to see the whole list, for GDPR/privacy reasons, but seeing their rank in the class isn’t much use to them, without seeing who’s above and below them, or how many people are in the class (since they’ll only be able to see where they were ranked at HL or OL, not in the whole class, so they won’t even necessarily know if they’re at the bottom, unless there was 30 in the class, all definitely HL, and they’re ranked 30th).

cmssjone

I'm really disappointed and disillusioned by this whole process. It was indicated to us that the students would not see their percentage/ranking and that the only piece of information that they would see on their cert would be the grade awarded H1 etc. With respect to appeals, the circular I read essentially stated that only clerical discrepancies would be considered.

To me, this means that it doesn't matter what percentage/ranking a student was given as this will not be amended in the appeals process. The only way that the grade will be changed is if it was inputted incorrectly as it traveled through the reporting system.

By publishing this information, all the DES is doing is creating tension between teachers and parents, some of whom who will have younger children yet to go through the same school where they may feel their other child has been "wronged".

Am I right in thinking this is the state of play or have I misunderstood the situation?

Treppen

cmssjone wrote: »

I'm really disappointed and disillusioned by this whole process. It was indicated to us that the students would not see their percentage/ranking and that the only piece of information that they would see on their cert would be the grade awarded H1 etc. With respect to appeals, the circular I read essentially stated that only clerical discrepancies would be considered.

To me, this means that it doesn't matter what percentage/ranking a student was given as this will not be amended in the appeals process. The only way that the grade will be changed is if it was inputted incorrectly as it traveled through the reporting system.

By publishing this information, all the DES is doing is creating tension between teachers and parents, some of whom who will have younger children yet to go through the same school where they may feel their other child has been "wronged".

Am I right in thinking this is the state of play or have I misunderstood the situation?

Out of curiousity, where was it indicated?

The only thing that makes it somewhat fair is the class ranking.

BTW yesterday the ASTI issued..... Something. It's not very specific and for me creates even more confusion

"The ASTI welcomes the move by the Government to remove a controversial measure from the process which involved considering historical data of schools within the process. This addresses any perception that school profiling is part of the process."

Are they talking about school profiling in terms of gender etc. ....
Or the profile of the school's junior cert results...
Or the profile of the school in previous students results..

As our geography teacher says "could you be more Pacific"... Cue ukuleles and grass skirts.

cmssjone

Treppen wrote: »

Out of curiousity, where was it indicated?

The only thing that makes it somewhat fair is the class ranking.

BTW yesterday the ASTI issued..... Something. It's not very specific and for me creates even more confusion

"The ASTI welcomes the move by the Government to remove a controversial measure from the process which involved considering historical data of schools within the process. This addresses any perception that school profiling is part of the process."

Are they talking about school profiling in terms of gender etc. ....
Or the profile of the school's junior cert results...
Or the profile of the school in previous students results..

As our geography teacher says "could you be more Pacific"... Cue ukuleles and grass skirts.

Perhaps indicated wasn't the correct word. I seem to remember management in our school saying it. I could have been mistaken. I'm sure they will tell me that I misheard...

Is school profiling really that bad? Whilst I understand some individual students will be disadvantaged, will it not provide a reasonable approximation for the majority of students?

highly1111

Seems like the DES have agreed to Union demands that rankings are not issued to students. One less stress!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/leaving-cert-students-will-not-have-access-to-highly-sensitive-class-ranking-data-1.4345093

Jajadog

The headline of that article is very misleading. Obviously they will have access to their class ranking through the appeals process or by requesting data held on them. That’s a lot better however than it being made automatically available on the student portal.

Treppen

Email from ASTI.

Seems the Dept had agreed one thing, but then decided to do their own thing (see my underlined part). It's unusual for union to publish the to and fro between themselves and the department so they are quite adamant that trust has been broken.

Dear ASTI member,

I write regarding the matter of access by students to their school’s estimated mark and ranking in the Calculated Grades process.

The situation regarding access to information was dealt with in our FAQ section published on our website in May.

It stated as follows:

(Q) What information will be available to students after the process is complete?
(A) Students will be entitled to submit a data access request under Data Protection legislation. The school’s mark and ranking for the individual will be made available to those who request it.”

The TUI, answered a similar question in the following terms:

Will my students be entitled to see the estimated marks or class rankings that the teacher awards?
It is important to restate that while the teacher provides a draft estimated percentage mark and class ranking, s/he does not award either the final estimated mark or final class ranking – the school does. If a student submits a data access request, the only information available to the student (following the appeals process) will be the school mark i.e. the estimated percentage mark determined and submitted by the school (following the school alignment process as overseen by school management) and her/his individual ranking in the class. S/he will therefore have access, on a redacted basis, to Form A and Form B.

Following reportage in the media that on the 14th of September students will have immediate access to their school’s estimated school grade and individual ranking, ASTI immediately sought a meeting with the Department of Education and Skills to seek clarification. It was indeed confirmed that this was to be the case.

Over a number of meetings, ASTI and TUI protested vigorously and demanded that the terms of the process be honoured. We pointed to our concerns regarding more vulnerable students and ensuring that the personal data of others is not inadvertently released. We pointed to our concern that the rank orders of student could be relatively easily reconstructed, potentially revealing personal data of those who would not wish to have it made widely known. We argued that the manner in which this data is provided is of the utmost importance and sensitivity and, if not managed carefully, may lead to negative consequences for some students.

Arising from these meetings, the Secretary General of the Department of Education wrote a letter to us citing legal advice for the volte-face. He confirmed the following:

“We did not intentionally renege on anything said during our discussions in the Clock Tower but I do understand that, in doing this work, we moved down a different pathway to the one which you understood was in place and did not revisit this with you.”

Unhappy with this response, a letter was written to the Minister for Education and Skills, Ms. Norma Foley TD, to request a meeting to discuss the matter.

Key excerpts from that letter are as follows:
As you know, we engaged fully, positively and collaboratively with your Department and the other relevant agencies and partners in the common effort to devise and implement a credible and reliable process to replace the 2020 Leaving Certificate examinations.

We did so on a good faith basis and, in that context, sought and received certain assurances and understandings. One such assurance was that the student ranking provided by a school would be available to a student only in response to a data access request. Without that assurance, neither union would have been in a position to participate in and/or endorse the calculated grades process.

However, it is now being suggested to us by the Department that on 14th September every student will have access on the portal to her/his estimated mark and where s/he ranked in the class for every subject without any requirement for a data access request.

This, if it happens, will be a fundamental breach of trust by the Department and by you as Minister. It will also be profoundly damaging to the relationship between teachers and students/parents/guardians in their communities. We can see serious issues arising for vulnerable students in the manner this information is being released.

Minister you have an opportunity and the authority to avert the present danger by addressing our concerns and restoring the relationship of trust between your Department and our members.

Subsequent to this intervention, the Department of Education and Skills has clarified that they are now seeking legal advice on this matter.

Because of ASTI representations, Candidates’ class rank orders will not be available to them on 14 September.

When the Calculated Grades Student Portal reopens on 14th September it will provide students with the subject percentage marks they were awarded by the Calculated Grades process. They will also be able to access the estimated percentage marks provided by their schools.

The calculated grades appeals process, which will open on 14th September via the Student Portal, will still operate as planned.

A further update on the availability of candidate rank order will be provided as soon as possible.

The foregoing is the up to date position.

This episode constitutes a regrettable breach of trust that will take some time to repair.

Best Regards

Kieran Christie
General Secretary

3 September, 2020