Steel proofed SXS

dto001

Hi All,
I hope the opening day was good for all. Not wanting to stir the pot in regards to the lead ban but I was looking around (just in case) for a steel proofed side by side has any one seen a decent one that's not going to cost thousands the only ones I've found is about 6 grand sterling.
Anyone know of any decent make?

Cheers

tudderone

The Turkish stuff is steel proof more than likely, Yildiz and all those. I don't know if there is a mid-level brand doing side by sides.

meathstevie

Look for a Fleur de lis proofmark and you’ll be good to go. The likes of GMK have had very decent side by sides for far less than 6K in their range under the Gunmark brand.

My son has one, given to him by my dad a few years ago, a Gunmark Viscount which is an AYA side lock with a GMK label. AYA stamps are all over the gun.

With the clear qualification that I’m not a gunsmith the issue is the pressures your gun can handle and the fact that steel shot doesn’t compress through the barrels as well as lead shot.

You could take your chance if your gun is a good sturdy piece of kit and submit it to steel shot proofing which can be destructive if it goes wrong but if it doesn’t you know you can shoot steel through it.

I know of a few people, friends of the father in Belgium, who use 1970’s and 1980’s built side by sides with steel shot and without proofing without any mishap. They’re quite careful in their cartridge selection and go for relatively light loads at the lower end of the pressure range. You do sacrifice a noticeable amount of effectiveness at range though.

tudderone

From this article in the Field magazine. I am in the same boat as you, i have an old side by side i love and think a lot of, and would hate to think i was damaging it as i used it.


https://www.thefield.co.uk/news/lead-shot-answers-to-the-most-frequently-asked-questions-43785


Can I fire steel shot through my shotgun?

Steel shot is classified as either standard or high performance. If your gun is nitro proofed (i.e. it can fire modern lead loads) then it will be safe to fire standard performance steel. This is generally steel of size 4 or smaller. High performance steel must be marked as such on the box, and should only be fired through guns bearing the fleur-de-lys proofmark, and usually with the words “STEEL SHOT” stamped on the barrel. If you have any doubt about your gun, seek the advice of an expert gunsmith.

I have an old gun and am worried about possible barrel damage.

Tests have found that standard performance 24g steel loads did not cause any damage in thin-walled game guns, even after a thousand shots**. However, if you are unable to use steel then your main alternative is bismuth, which is suitable for both muzzle-loading and Damascus-barrelled guns. Bismuth does cost more than both lead and steel but, ultimately, this is all about choices and securing the future of sustainable shooting.

Gorgeousgeorge

Yildiz sxs are steel proofed. Local rfd has one. Also fabarm do a nice sxs that is steel proof

no_4

Yildiz Akbar and I think hatsan do them steel proofed
There’s even a 3 barrelled Churchill by akkar I think! Sort of a hybrid Sxs and ou

tudderone

no_4 wrote: »

Yildiz Akbar and I think hatsan do them steel proofed
There’s even a 3 barrelled Churchill by akkar I think! Sort of a hybrid Sxs and ou

I reckon it must handle like a drunken donkey with the weight up front.

dto001

The Baikal are probably steel proofed but your arm would be hanging off you after a decent day out
Seemingly according to "The Field" magazine arrieta do a steel proofed SXS but i can't find them in Ireland.
They look like a really nice gun but a bit on the steep side.

You'd think gun dealers would mention if it was steel proofed or not.

Mississippi.

My Baikal SxS is stamped 65 mpa (650 bar) and is half choke and full choke.

I had read earlier that standard steel cartridges needed 930 bar proof and a choke greater than half for any shot bigger than no 3.

Would not know what to change to though.

Does anyone know would steel shot need longer or shorter barrels than lead for optimal performance?

dto001

I hate to rehash this thread but I'm still looking (online for now) and it seems Ireland doesn't go for this market so much.
I've found some lovely guns but trying to finding them here is proving difficult.

http://www.fabarm.com/web_eng/dettaglio-prodotto.asp?i=80

http://www.rizzinispecialist.co.uk/?page_id=169

http://www.yildizshotgun.com/tr/ele15.html

https://www.beretta.com/en-us/486-parallelo/ There is a sidelock version of this and also the Beretta silver hawk

I'm really after the sidelock (or side plate).

Does anyone know if gun shops will order in guns especially? and if so would they take a trade in? or how hard is it to get from the uk?

cheers

Rosahane

dto001 wrote: »

I hate to rehash this thread but I'm still looking (online for now) and it seems Ireland doesn't go for this market so much.
I've found some lovely guns but trying to finding them here is proving difficult.

http://www.fabarm.com/web_eng/dettaglio-prodotto.asp?i=80

http://www.rizzinispecialist.co.uk/?page_id=169

http://www.yildizshotgun.com/tr/ele15.html

https://www.beretta.com/en-us/486-parallelo/ There is a sidelock version of this and also the Beretta silver hawk

I'm really after the sidelock (or side plate).

Does anyone know if gun shops will order in guns especially? and if so would they take a trade in? or how hard is it to get from the uk?

cheers

I know that Pat in Hilltop will bring in Beretta, Browning and Miroku. I've seen some nice guns that he has got in on special orders up there.

tudderone

dto001 wrote: »

I hate to rehash this thread but I'm still looking (online for now) and it seems Ireland doesn't go for this market so much.
I've found some lovely guns but trying to finding them here is proving difficult.

http://www.fabarm.com/web_eng/dettaglio-prodotto.asp?i=80

http://www.rizzinispecialist.co.uk/?page_id=169

http://www.yildizshotgun.com/tr/ele15.html

https://www.beretta.com/en-us/486-parallelo/ There is a sidelock version of this and also the Beretta silver hawk

I'm really after the sidelock (or side plate).

Does anyone know if gun shops will order in guns especially? and if so would they take a trade in? or how hard is it to get from the uk?

cheers

Those parallelos are a nice gun, but expensive enough.

dto001

tudderone wrote: »

Those parallelos are a nice gun, but expensive enough.

It seems by from what I can find that all the high performance steel proofed SXS guns are from £3500 to lotto winning prices. I haven't seen the prices for any over here

dto001

Rosahane wrote: »

I know that Pat in Hilltop will bring in Beretta, Browning and Miroku. I've seen some nice guns that he has got in on special orders up there.

Cheers I look him up.

tudderone

dto001 wrote: »

It seems by from what I can find that all the high performance steel proofed SXS guns are from £3500 to lotto winning prices. I haven't seen the prices for any over here

Isn't high performance proof basically magnum proof ? As far as i can see, high performance means pushing the steel shot faster to try to get the same performance as lead shot. Ok for game, but punishing for clays.

dto001

tudderone wrote: »

Isn't high performance proof basically magnum proof ? As far as i can see, high performance means pushing the steel shot faster to try to get the same performance as lead shot. Ok for game, but punishing for clays.

I think you're right. To the best of my knowledge (and i'm open to correction) all nitro proofed guns can fire steel shot (Eley have a steel shot round for old english guns) and the guns with the "fleur de lis" mark can fire high performance steel which I'd prefer for duck etc as I think the eley cartridge is a 30 gram load which is the lead equivalent of a 28 gram so for pigeons maybe but for duck etc I personally wouldn't.

cookimonster

I've been doing a bit of reading on this as well, there seems to be either contradictory information or at best some of the information is lacking in clarity or full facts.

The main issue is the difference between High Performance and Standard steel shot. The high performance cartridges push larger and heavier shot loads (bigger then No4 and 32 grams) at higher velocities and therefore higher pressures. To accommodate this guns need to be steel shot proofed, indicated - in words on the barrel and/or stamped with a fleur-de-lys. These guns
have been proved to at least 1,320 bar. It is recommended that chokes (those not designed for steal) should not be tighter then 1/2 (Modified).

Guns indicated as 'Magnum' do not automatically mean the gun is suitable for High Performance Steel loads and vice versa, Steal Proof doesn't nessacerraly mean magnum suitable.

Standard steel shot is smaller in shot size than UK No3 and may be used through any choke. Therefore a traditional No6 in 32 gram should be ok through a Full Choke. But the likes of BASC recommend that traditional light weight game guns should be choked no more than a quarter choke if using standard steel.

The other variable to throw into the mix is shot size selection for effective hunting. Again citing BASC the following is thier recommendation -

If you use steel shot go up at least two sizes of shot and consider opening up your chokes.

Therefore my example of a No6 32 gram load would be replaced by No4 32 gram. The various literature seems to agree that there is no need to increase shot load only shot size with steel shot. So No4 steal shot keeps you within the safety zone of the recommendations of no bigger than No3 shot. But using the rule of thumb of going up two shot sizes it leaves little wriggle room for 'larger cartridges'. I use No6 for most of my rough shooting, I find it a good all rounder, therefore I could see myself using No4 steel shot in the future. I also would use No5 / No4, especially if finishing the day on flight of ducks. This now pushes me towards and over the recommended safety threshold if I was to substitute in No3 / No2 steel shot.

So if I'm correct in my understanding of the literature the likes of my o/u that has the fleur-de-lys proof marks but is choked 1/2 and Full should be ok with standard steel shot up to No3 but preferably No4 shot size.

I'm not worried about barrel ware as the realistic number of cartridges I put through the gun per year would be counted in boxes not slabs. For high volume shooting or heavy loads I'll go to the steel proofed gun with its steal proofed chokes.

Disclaimer- for expert opinion ask me about food, all other subjects come under the school of 'Joe Soap'

dto001

I initially thought the same as Shooting pheasants and wood cock its not a big deal with my present gun as realistically for the amount I put down the barrel I could stretch to bismuth etc. (tungsten I hear is mixed with plastic to stabilize it, kind of defeats the purpose) or use standard steel as you said above. But when it comes to Geese, duck, snipe and pigeons between the shot size or the sheer quantity of shots is what made me want to change. Plus most of where I shoot would be classed as wetland and all it takes is one lead cartridge in your pocket and a ranger that's a stickler for the rules and that's it over

It really amazes me that there are very few steel proofed side by sides and the ones that are available are fairly dear compared to the semi autos or O/U

meathstevie

It’s the comparatively small demand for new side by side guns that has the market the way it is.

It simply doesn’t pay the likes of Beretta or Browning and similar gun makers to set up the manufacturing facilities to make side by sides in substantial quantities if only every reasonably priced gun in twenty, or less, being sold is a side by side.

tudderone

I used to go to the clay range to shoot, to get my eye in for the season. I have a couple of side by sides, and i can only remember once when there was someone else shooting one.

The demand is not there for SXS's, especially when you can get a really nice one used for not much money. Personally i think its a shame, as they are a great gun, swing very well and sit nicely in the hands, light too if you are rough shooting.

cookimonster

meathstevie wrote: »

It’s the comparatively small demand for new side by side guns that has the market the way it is.

According to an UK article quoting a previous Game Shooting Census three quarters of Guns surveyed use an over and under for their game shooting. The article went on to explain that many new shooters entering the world of shotguns are introduced to it via O/U by shooting schools, instructors etc, etc. Previously an O/U would have been looked upon with disdain produced on a driven shoot, now they are the norm with the SXS becoming the minority.