Defect in 9 month old sofa

jamesryan81

Hi,

My father purchased a leather sofa suite (3-seater and 2 armchairs) last September that cost ~2400 euro. It was reduced from ~4300 euro, so therefore you'd expect the quality to be very good.

In one section, the leather has started to peel/wear after 9 months. The section is located where someone's head would rest.

After back and forth with Customer Service, they sent a technician out. In his/her report it states:
"Upon arrival, the customer has raised concerns about the left hand facing back cover peeling.

In my opinion, after an inspection showed this to be a maintaining issue as the customer had never used leather
maintaining products, after rub test it showed up positive for soiling, the affected area was sticky which
suggests body fluids from the head area has soaked into the leather leaving it sticky to the touch. This is not
due to a manufacturing of the product
If repair is to take place a new left hand facing back cover is required."

The shop where it was purchased is refusing to give a refund or replacement. They are saying it is not due to a manufacturing defect, and all that they will provide is a repair out of courtesy.


My response was:
"The report from the engineer/technician is based on his opinion. There are no technical or scientific details in this report that proves that the issue is not due to a manufacturing fault.

Based on the assessment in the report, it means that:
1. furniture with the collective value of €4297, that is only 9 months old, needs to be maintained with leather products, otherwise it will peel and shed.
2. further to this, to avoid bodily fluids (that naturally excrete from all humans) making contact with the sofa, the person will need to put some kind of plastic wrap (?) around their skin before sitting on it?

In my opinion, the issue is either a manufacturing fault, or it is of insufficient quality based on the price that was paid for it.
"

Can anyone advise if I have any rights to ask for a replacement or refund?

Thanks,
James.

Samuel T. Cogley

After six months its upto you to prove the defect unfortunately. You'll have to get an independent report and go down the route of the Small Claims Procedure for the cost of the repair.

jamesryan81

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

After six months its upto you to prove the defect unfortunately. You'll have to get an independent report and go down the route of the Small Claims Procedure for the cost of the repair.

Thanks for the reply.

The shop is offering a provide a repair (out of courtesy).

Is it worthwhile to just proceed with the Small Claims procedure or would an independent assessment be needed?

Again, it's only a 9 months old product that cost a lot of money, and it's usage in that 9 month period is pretty standard. A good quality product should not require leather maintenance within it's first 9 months.

Allinall

If the problem is confined to one area, then why not take the offer of repair?

Your other option would be to look for a replacement, but judging by the shop’s reaction to your complaint, it could be a long drawn out process, with no guarantee of success.

wildwillow

If the repair which is offered will bring the article back to the original condition then you should accept it.

Do you agree with the cause of the problem or are you sure there is a defect.

The quality of leather varies considerably, and while the cost was considerable before discount, I would expect first grade leather to cost far more.

Leather does need nourishing and cleaning as it is an organic product. Were you given written or oral instructions about this.

Sometimes when ordering furniture you are given an option to use grade A leather on the parts which take most wear and a lower grade for the back and sides where there is no wear.

Many people, especially if bald, have very greasy heads and this will cause stickiness on the leather, but I would expect it to last longer than yours did. Depends on time spent on it I suppose.

Irish_peppa

I have a leather suite its over 20 years old, have never used any products on it ever. Odd wipe down with a wet clean rag or quick blast of Mr Sheen twice a year. Still looks practically new apart from some color lightening where bums have constantly rubbed at the seat. Pure leather should not do that surely.

wildwillow

Irish_peppa wrote: »

I have a leather suite its over 20 years old, have never used any products on it ever. Odd wipe down with a wet clean rag or quick blast of Mr Sheen twice a year. Still looks practically new apart from some color lightening where bums have constantly rubbed at the seat. Pure leather should not do that surely.

You'll find that the leather is far better quality and you have been caring for it, at least to some extent. Modern furniture is made with a lesser quality of leather.

My husband had a very greasy head and we cleaned the leather chair he used regularly. He replaced his bed pillow about every six months, so that shows the problem.

That chair is now over thirty years old and perfect, but the leather was top quality and very expensive. Cost per year has turned out to be small and it will last another thirty.

jamesryan81

wildwillow wrote: »

If the repair which is offered will bring the article back to the original condition then you should accept it.

Do you agree with the cause of the problem or are you sure there is a defect.

The quality of leather varies considerably, and while the cost was considerable before discount, I would expect first grade leather to cost far more.

Leather does need nourishing and cleaning as it is an organic product. Were you given written or oral instructions about this.

Sometimes when ordering furniture you are given an option to use grade A leather on the parts which take most wear and a lower grade for the back and sides where there is no wear.

Many people, especially if bald, have very greasy heads and this will cause stickiness on the leather, but I would expect it to last longer than yours did. Depends on time spent on it I suppose.

My father had a sofa before this, for many years, and it never showed this kind of wear. Agreed that different leathers have different characteristics, however 2400 euro is still 2400 euro. It should be durable.

I checked the Care Guide booklet (which was attached to the receipt). Under the section for leather care it does not mention the need for any maintenance type product - it more provides caution when using cleaning products.

I don't agree with the cause of the problem, as it should be durable within a 9 month timeframe without the need for explicit maintenance products.

Also, he has a full head of hair and I wouldn't call it oily at all.

nuac

Once there used to be anti-macasser covers on armchairs to avoid stains from the hairoil of the time

jamesryan81

Here's a photo:

https://ibb.co/QvkxVmc

Seve OB

For what it’s worth I’ve an expensive leather sofa which might be close to 10 years old.
I think I once or twice might have given it a clean with some sort of leather cleaner, but otherwise. Outing more than a wipe with a warm damp Cloth


Oh yea and i tend to wear gel etc so would be plenty of oils Etc bet into it by now

Sounds like a poor quality sofa to me.

Irish_peppa

wildwillow wrote: »

You'll find that the leather is far better quality and you have been caring for it, at least to some extent. Modern furniture is made with a lesser quality of leather.

My husband had a very greasy head and we cleaned the leather chair he used regularly. He replaced his bed pillow about every six months, so that shows the problem.

That chair is now over thirty years old and perfect, but the leather was top quality and very expensive. Cost per year has turned out to be small and it will last another thirty.

There has been more cans of beer and bottles of coke spilled over it as i have been renting rooms years and I know they let beer soak into the couches on a regular basis. Its had dogs abuse. The only part that damadged was the wood frame which i repaired. No Joke if you saw it and I told you it was new you would believe me. Gas thing my friend bought a new couch fabric for 800 euro and within 3 years its all faded and you can feel the wood boards through it when you sit. I had not realised they were selling crappy leather these days. If i was to buy again i would always go for top quality leather (but i thought all leather was the same aparantly not)


OP that picture No way, small claims court I would have thought no way should it be like that after a mere 9 months surely, 9 years... maybe .... 19 years Ok i would say I got my use from it but 9 months ! No way

wildwillow

Going by that picture there is a defect. No way should good quality leather show wear like that so quickly.
go back to the store and quote consumers rights.
It must be of merchantable quality and fit for purpose. Press your demand but remain polite and calm.

Is the store part of a chain where you can contact a head office.

NSAman

My two cents....

Cheap leather couch. Have a leather couch for nearly 10 years. Dogs, food, beer and of course kids have been on it. It gets sprayed with furniture polish and cleaned with soapy water once or twice a year and that is it.

It takes serious abuse and NOTHING like I see on your couch.

"independent" inspector organised by the store?.... hardly independent!!!

Grolschevik

jamesryan81 wrote: »

Here's a photo:

https://ibb.co/QvkxVmc

What grade of leather was it advertised as having? There are lower grades that still are allowed to call themselves 100% pure leather that are essentially leather veneers over fabric and are made from reconstituted leather scraps.

That doesn't look or your experience sound it's like pure cowhide grade leather...

Vestiapx

That's coated leather and you are being taken for a ride.

Del2005

jamesryan81 wrote: »

Hi,

My father purchased a leather sofa suite (3-seater and 2 armchairs) last September that cost ~2400 euro. It was reduced from ~4300 euro, so therefore you'd expect the quality to be very good.

In one section, the leather has started to peel/wear after 9 months. The section is located where someone's head would rest.

After back and forth with Customer Service, they sent a technician out. In his/her report it states:
"Upon arrival, the customer has raised concerns about the left hand facing back cover peeling.

In my opinion, after an inspection showed this to be a maintaining issue as the customer had never used leather
maintaining products, after rub test it showed up positive for soiling, the affected area was sticky which
suggests body fluids from the head area has soaked into the leather leaving it sticky to the touch. This is not
due to a manufacturing of the product
If repair is to take place a new left hand facing back cover is required."

The shop where it was purchased is refusing to give a refund or replacement. They are saying it is not due to a manufacturing defect, and all that they will provide is a repair out of courtesy.


My response was:
"The report from the engineer/technician is based on his opinion. There are no technical or scientific details in this report that proves that the issue is not due to a manufacturing fault.

Based on the assessment in the report, it means that:
1. furniture with the collective value of €4297, that is only 9 months old, needs to be maintained with leather products, otherwise it will peel and shed.
2. further to this, to avoid bodily fluids (that naturally excrete from all humans) making contact with the sofa, the person will need to put some kind of plastic wrap (?) around their skin before sitting on it?

In my opinion, the issue is either a manufacturing fault, or it is of insufficient quality based on the price that was paid for it.
"

Can anyone advise if I have any rights to ask for a replacement or refund?

Thanks,
James.

You are getting a free repair, regardless of them saying it's a courtesy, so that's the 1st stage of the Sale of Goods and Supply of services act. The consumer doesn't get to go straight to refund or replacement after so long. If it fails again then you can move to one the other 2 R's and this time you can feed the leather so that they have no easy get out.

jamesryan81

Grolschevik wrote: »

What grade of leather was it advertised as having? There are lower grades that still are allowed to call themselves 100% pure leather that are essentially leather veneers over fabric and are made from reconstituted leather scraps.

That doesn't look or your experience sound it's like pure cowhide grade leather...

It says the following:
Sofa Specifications:
- Frame covering: Genuine Leather
- Seat covering: Leather Upholstery

Sofa Fabric
- Seat Material: Genuine Leather

jamesryan81

Vestiapx wrote: »

That's coated leather and you are being taken for a ride.

This is what it's advertised as:
Sofa Specifications:
- Frame covering: Genuine Leather
- Seat covering: Leather Upholstery

Sofa Fabric
- Seat Material: Genuine Leather

jamesryan81

wildwillow wrote: »

Going by that picture there is a defect. No way should good quality leather show wear like that so quickly.
go back to the store and quote consumers rights.
It must be of merchantable quality and fit for purpose. Press your demand but remain polite and calm.

Is the store part of a chain where you can contact a head office.

Yep it's part of a large chain. That's a good idea, thanks.

jlm29

Have you contacted the cpcc? They’re very good to advise re your entitlements. If you phone them Monday they’ll let you know exactly where you stand. I had an issue in the past with an appliance, and the shop definitely listened a bit harder When they heard I had done a bit of homework

Tails142

Genuine leather is the term used for pure crap unfortunately, its bottom of the barrel as grades go, you live and learn. You can be pretty much guaranteed that sofa never sold at full price too and it's true value is still much less than you paid.

Genuine leather is basically what is left underneath after they take the good leather off, then they dye it up and try put a finish on it to make it look good but it doesn't have the same durability.

https://joojoobs.com/leather-grades/

jamesryan81

jlm29 wrote: »

Have you contacted the cpcc? They’re very good to advise re your entitlements. If you phone them Monday they’ll let you know exactly where you stand. I had an issue in the past with an appliance, and the shop definitely listened a bit harder When they heard I had done a bit of homework

Thanks Jim.

Up until this point I've been dealing with their Customer Service for the past 5 weeks. Today I went directly to the store and a Store Assistant worked through the issue with me. At the end of the conversation the outcome did not change (i.e. repair only), however he said that he'll ask the Manager to contact me tomorrow.

I'll see how that conversation goes and then contact the CPCC if necessary.

jamesryan81

Tails142 wrote: »

Genuine leather is the term used for pure crap unfortunately, its bottom of the barrel as grades go, you live and learn. You can be pretty much guaranteed that sofa never sold at full price too and it's true value is still much less than you paid.

Genuine leather is basically what is left underneath after they take the good leather off, then they dye it up and try put a finish on it to make it look good but it doesn't have the same durability.

https://joojoobs.com/leather-grades/

Thanks. I doubt there's any value in having a conversation/debate with them about the quality of leather, and should simply focus on the fact that something of that cost should have better durability.

Irish_peppa

Tails142 wrote: »

Genuine leather is the term used for pure crap unfortunately, its bottom of the barrel as grades go, you live and learn. You can be pretty much guaranteed that sofa never sold at full price too and it's true value is still much less than you paid.

Genuine leather is basically what is left underneath after they take the good leather off, then they dye it up and try put a finish on it to make it look good but it doesn't have the same durability.

https://joojoobs.com/leather-grades/

WOW thats very interesting! I would have assumed if i saw "genuine leather" on a couch I was getting the best of the best!
OP as a matter of interest I looked under my couches for information re quality. It didnt give a leather grade but the manufacturing date is written and signed of by AR on 7/6/1996 ( 24 years ago ) and still looks practically new.

Another possibility might be to talk to them get a dialogue going about returning this item and investing in a higher quality set using tails info above. At the end of the day its in their interest to keep you happy also. Win / Win

antix80

I bought an Emporio Armani leather belt on sale 10 years ago. The steel part is tarnished but the leather looks just as good as when i bought it new.

I bought a diesel leather belt recently and having worn it only a few times I noticed the finish started flaking in patches leaving an ugly scuffed look beneath.

Sounds like your sofa is made of the same crap. Oil from your head and maybe bristling of hair against it is flaking away the finish. It's a case of you get what you pay for. There's an argument the leather/fabric should be able to withstand such use but if you didnt follow care instructions to clean or nourish the leather i think a repair is a fair compromise.

Irish_peppa

antix80 wrote: »

I bought an Emporio Armani leather belt on sale 10 years ago. The steel part is tarnished but the leather looks just as good as when i bought it new.

I bought a diesel leather belt recently and having worn it only a few times I noticed the finish started flaking in patches leaving an ugly scuffed look beneath.

Sounds like your sofa is made of the same crap. Oil from your head and maybe bristling of hair against it is flaking away the finish. It's a case of you get what you pay for. There's an argument the leather/fabric should be able to withstand such use but if you didnt follow care instructions to clean or nourish the leather i think a repair is a fair compromise.

Only thing I dont like the repair idea for is the OP will be in the same if not worse position in 12 months when there will be no more offers of repair. What will the couch look like in 2 3 or 5 if not 10 years. I would say a state. When buying a couch especially one supposedly reduced from 4k most people would be expecting to get a decade if not two out of it. The original full price tag would seem to indicate to most consumers you were getting very high grade leather. To be honest I would have fallen for it too !

wildwillow

Even the original price was not enough to expect the quality of leather that would give decades of wear.

Single armchairs will cost what the OP paid,

Vestiapx

wildwillow wrote: »

Even the original price was not enough to expect the quality of leather that would give decades of wear.

Single armchairs will cost what the OP paid,

How do you know this ?

s1ippy

jamesryan81 wrote: »

Here's a photo:

https://ibb.co/QvkxVmc

sofa so good

Yeah I'd go for the comp repair. The consumer laws here are funny, under 6 months and it's on the shop, over six months and it's on you.

It's very thin leather. Whatever about treating it, it'll need regular wipes down, especially if there is skin directly on it.

Springfields

No way it should look like that after that time. We bought a leather sofa more than 3 years ago, paid 4.5k for a 3 and 2 seater and there isn't a mark on it. No unusual care or products required and my husband (and his hair gel) sits in the same spot every evening and its perfect. Also have 3 young sticky children who have spilled every type of food and drink on it and it looks perfect. I'd be going down small claims court personally to get my money back if possible and buy elsewhere.

antix80

Springfields wrote: »

No way it should look like that after that time. We bought a leather sofa more than 3 years ago, paid 4.5k for a 3 and 2 seater and there isn't a mark on it.

Op paid half that for 3+1+1. I know it was supposedly reduced but really, you can't trust before prices unless you're familiar with the product

wildwillow

Vestiapx wrote: »

How do you know this ?

Because I have downsized and priced new furniture and quality leather is very expensive. Look up prices or shop around.
You can feel the difference when you feel the leather, if you are familiar with leather, which I am, as I did some leather work in the distant past.


A two seater sofa which my sister-in-law bought for around €900 euro a year or so ago has the same problem as yours.

You may describe it as false advertising as you are not getting what you expected, but it was as described. Buyer beware.

I agree with the poster who said it was probably never sold at the original price quoted.

jamesryan81

Low and behold, there was no contact from the Store Manager (as promised by the Store assistant when we went directly to the shop last Friday).

As suggested by jlm29, I reached out to CPCC earlier and they gave some good advice. I wrote a formal letter and sent it to the shop earlier.

For the people that have advised that I should accept the repair as offered by the store - they are offering this as a gesture of good will and are not accepting that it's a manufacturing fault or related to quality. With this, if/when this issue occurs again (in other parts of the sofa), I have no comeback.

At the end of the day, something that costs this amount should not deteriorate in 9 months.

Thanks to all for their advice.

Samuel T. Cogley

Be aware that this is outside of the €2000 limit for the small Claims Procedure. Youd probably only get a repair anyway by going legal.

jamesryan81

As an update, I went the small claims route.

1. Sent an official letter in to the shop stating my rights etc.
2. No response from shop
3. Applied to small claims online with a claim for 2000 euro (max). Note that the suite of furniture cost around 2500 euro. They reviewed the application and accepted it.
4. Small claims registrar contacted the shop. Shop responded with the same story - that they do not accept the issue is with them, that the fault in the sofa is due to lack of maintenance product and oil from hair, and that they will fix the sofa as a gesture of good will.
5. I advised the small claims registrar that I do not accept the shop's offer, and to proceed with Court Hearing.
6. Court Hearing was scheduled, and precisely one week before the hearing date the shop offered a full replacement or full refund.

I'll be taking the full refund.

GreeBo

The system works!

I dunno why store go through the rigamarole only to cave in the end, there is no way any consumer will back down from the SCC, whats it cost, €26 or something?

Senature

Well done for sticking to your guns and following through. It paid off in the end.

Regardless of what grade of leather was used for the furniture, any seat covering that is wrecked after a few months of being sat on is not fit for purpose. The consumer is not to blame for this and should not be adversely affected.

jamesryan81

GreeBo wrote: »

The system works!

I dunno why store go through the rigamarole only to cave in the end, there is no way any consumer will back down from the SCC, whats it cost, €26 or something?

yep 25 euro.

I think the Stores do this knowing that 80% of people either don't know about SCC, or that they won't follow it through until the end.

jamesryan81

Senature wrote: »

Well done for sticking to your guns and following through. It paid off in the end.

Regardless of what grade of leather was used for the furniture, any seat covering that is wrecked after a few months of being sat on is not fit for purpose. The consumer is not to blame for this and should not be adversely affected.

Thanks...

I was actually fighting for this on behalf of my father, who is 78 years old. He was the one that would have to stand up at the SCC hearing and explain his consumer rights. Shameful.

Lenar3556

Well done on the outcome.

By the way it’s SCP (small claims procedure)
SCC refers to the Special Criminal Court - you don’t want to be going there.