shortage of maths teachers

techteacher

just a quick post to see what vacancies are really happening?

I know we are looking for maths teachers and mgmt are saying it is very tricky to get one ? Is this the same across all centres?:rolleyes:

mtoutlemonde

techteacher wrote: »

just a quick post to see what vacancies are really happening?

I know we are looking for maths teachers and mgmt are saying it is very tricky to get one ? Is this the same across all centres?:rolleyes:

Do a search putting mathematics in subject box on educationposts

Result 58 vacancies in Ireland.

r93kaey5p2izun

In the past month I've been contacted by two schools to offer full Maths hours and by an ETB to ask me to apply to their general ad as they need Maths teachers. I have subbed very occasionally in the schools/ETB and did an hour a week in the evening QQI in one of them last year. I have no interest in the jobs. I think there's certainly a shortage in Dublin. The PAC PME points for Maths are incredibly low now too - you will get a place with a bare pass degree - so obviously very little interest in teacher training from Maths grads. Maybe more are doing Hibernia, but it doesn't look like enough anyway.

amacca

Santino Vast Barium wrote: »

In the past month I've been contacted by two schools to offer full Maths hours and by an ETB to ask me to apply to their general ad as they need Maths teachers. I have subbed very occasionally in the schools/ETB and did an hour a week in the evening QQI in one of them last year. I have no interest in the jobs. I think there's certainly a shortage in Dublin. The PAC PME points for Maths are incredibly low now too - you will get a place with a bare pass degree - so obviously very little interest in teacher training from Maths grads. Maybe more are doing Hibernia, but it doesn't look like enough anyway.

You can earn a hell.of a lot more for a lot less hassle (especially the way its going) than pursuing teaching with a maths qualification......

Treppen

If there's a downturn we'll get the engineers looking for a handy number, then realising the Teaching Council don't think they can do maths... But allow the Business folk in to teach maths... But bar the business folk from teaching the subject they are qualified in. Then start up a course to upskill teachers. Then people from abroad will hear about the 'lack of teachers' but ..... The teaching council.

Treppen

amacca wrote: »

You can earn a hell.of a lot more for a lot less hassle (especially the way its going) than pursuing teaching with a maths qualification......

I dunno, if u get in early with permanent, live at home with the folks for ten years, live out the country with cheap house, good school etc That ads up ... But yould have to be into the whole education thing .

amacca

Treppen wrote: »

I dunno, if u get in early with permanent, live at home with the folks for ten years, live out the country with cheap house, good school etc That ads up ... But yould have to be into the whole education thing .

Thats a lot of ifs

am_zarathustra

We have been short maths the last few years. I've nearly a full timetable and I am not actually fully qualified (because the TC can't handle research masters etc). I know a fair few engineers who would be very interested in teaching as a career but the nonsense involved in showing that you can teach it to people who haven't a breeze what you are talking about makes it impossible.

I have to say I became a teacher after working in private industry and I would never go back. It's a brilliant, if frustrating job, and I definitely like my daily life a hell of a lot more than most of my friends still in industry. I was a fair few years getting permanency and it took me almost a decade to earn what I earned when I was 21 but I learned a huge amount moving school to school at the start of my career.

Leham

Opportunities for people with maths degrees are endless, ive a friend with a maths degree working for a large accountancy and financial company whose earning 100K a year, he only did his masters last year and did it part time online, his masters cost less than the PME.
Why would anyone choose to complete a 2 year expensive PME to graduate into precarious employment and low wages compared with what other jobs pay for an employee with similar level of education.

r93kaey5p2izun

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I have to say I became a teacher after working in private industry and I would never go back. It's a brilliant, if frustrating job, and I definitely like my daily life a hell of a lot more than most of my friends still in industry. I was a fair few years getting permanency and it took me almost a decade to earn what I earned when I was 21 but I learned a huge amount moving school to school at the start of my career.

So did I. But after 13 years teaching I left again. I could not see myself back teaching any more than subbing now. It's just too hard to make ends meet.

am_zarathustra

Santino Vast Barium wrote: »

So did I. But after 13 years teaching I left again. I could not see myself back teaching any more than subbing now. It's just too hard to make ends meet.

In fairness I don't have a family yet and am only buying a house this year, most of my friends bought 3/4 years ago so I may not feel the same then. It's definitely hard in Dublin, I'm lucky enough to have gotten a post young enough (lucky and I worked insanely hard) which helps but it is difficult to get qualified staff. The 2 year PME was a complete disaster. You have to be so sure you want to be a teacher to take it on.

I'd also say of the 6/7 schools I'd know well, over half are toxic environments because of management. A well educated person with good maths skills and the personality to teach could certainly earn very good money elsewhere without the completely unchecked megalomania of some principals and deputies

techteacher

am_zarathustra wrote: »

In fairness I don't have a family yet and am only buying a house this year, most of my friends bought 3/4 years ago so I may not feel the same then. It's definitely hard in Dublin, I'm lucky enough to have gotten a post young enough (lucky and I worked insanely hard) which helps but it is difficult to get qualified staff. The 2 year PME was a complete disaster. You have to be so sure you want to be a teacher to take it on.

I'd also say of the 6/7 schools I'd know well, over half are toxic environments because of management. A well educated person with good maths skills and the personality to teach could certainly earn very good money elsewhere without the completely unchecked megalomania of some principals and deputies

very true yet this issue has never been addressed ( I wonder why!!!)

am_zarathustra

I always say "get out" if your in a toxic environment you can do nothing about in teaching. In the real world you rarely get the sort of lunatics I've met tearing through peoples lives with no checks and balances. It's madness really. I've only been teaching a decade but even I've seen a few fantastic teachers driven out by the politics and nonsense. As someone was saying on here last week, being a good teacher is not even respected any more

trihead

I haven't seen it advertised yet but there is the maths post-grad being introduced again - free one for existing teachers to retrain. UL had the contract the last time but not sure who who won the tender this time round.

am_zarathustra

trihead wrote: »

I haven't seen it advertised yet but there is the maths post-grad being introduced again - free one for existing teachers to retrain. UL had the contract the last time but not sure who who won the tender this time round.

Good idea in theory but I'd wonder about the depth of knowledge, good if your coming from a related field but do people go from English and History into it?

Ii'd love to see it opened to engineers wit an integrated PME.....all in one year. Project maths is very focused on the type of maths they would have studied too!

onrail

I'm gathering from this thread that it isn't straightforward (or even possible) for an engineer with a maths heavy degree and masters to pursue maths teaching?

am_zarathustra

They have to do several, very expensive courses to make up random restrictions placed on it. I'd say half of Maths teachers in the country aren't qualified but they are in science etc so the principal timetables them for Maths. I love teaching maths and did a huge amount in my degree but with the way the restrictions work I'd need to spend between 6-8 thousand to take a couple of exams I could pass in my sleep. It would be laughable if we weren't on the brink of a STEM teacher crisis.

onrail

am_zarathustra wrote: »

They have to do several, very expensive courses to make up random restrictions placed on it. I'd say half of Maths teachers in the country aren't qualified but they are in science etc so the principal timetables them for Maths. I love teaching maths and did a huge amount in my degree but with the way the restrictions work I'd need to spend between 6-8 thousand to take a couple of exams I could pass in my sleep. It would be laughable if we weren't on the brink of a STEM teacher crisis.

And time-wise, is it a year or two of training? If restrictions weren't so tight, you could have an avalanche of engineers waiting to sign up.

am_zarathustra

2 years currently + the extra courses. I did the one year Pme, guy in my maths tutorials was doing the extra courses while doing the PME. he was in his 30s with a kid, one year of not earning much was stretching him and his wife but he felt it would be worth it. Brilliant guy, I'd say a fabulous teacher. He couldn't do that now. 2 years of no earnings is too much to ask of a person in their late 20s or early 30s. It discourages potential teachers from lower socioeconomic backgrounds too. I definitely think you would get a few engineers lurking there who couldn't justify it but if they were given a 9 month option with a few extra maths classes they don't need already paid for some will take the plunge. Given the project maths course, I'd say they would have great examples etc for the HL LC kids.

newuser99999

onrail wrote: »

I'm gathering from this thread that it isn't straightforward (or even possible) for an engineer with a maths heavy degree and masters to pursue maths teaching?

It’s not. Have a friend who did data science and analytics couldn’t do maths teaching because their degree didn’t have certain math modules you would need.

am_zarathustra

It's madness when half the teachers teaching it don't have the correct modules and we all know it.

Jane98

I suspect the shortage is confined to Dublin mostly. I'm a Maths teacher in Munster with 8 years experience. I applied to 6 Maths jobs in the last 2 weeks and was only called for 1 interview.

am_zarathustra

I could nearly offer you a job on here starting next week if you wanted to move to Dublin!! Every year up here there is a new shortage, no Irish, Home Ec, Maths, physics, chemistry.....any modern foreign languages. Students in Dublin will end up with 24 hours a week of English, Geography, History and Art if nothing is done

dory

Jane98 wrote: »

I suspect the shortage is confined to Dublin mostly. I'm a Maths teacher in Munster with 8 years experience. I applied to 6 Maths jobs in the last 2 weeks and was only called for 1 interview.

Yes, I think it is. I had principals I knew socially ask me if I was willing to move to Dublin, they couldn't get teachers. Same subjects aren't in demand down the country at all. I'd love to live in Dublin but couldn't afford a house there.

Agree with all the above. 2 year PME is a joke and stops a lot of people applying.

mirrorwall14

Irish and Maths worst problems in our area by all accounts. Irish is absolutely impossible to get teachers

Dave0301

I know it won't happen, but given the issues around teacher shortages in Dublin, and the cost of accomodation there, it should be taken into account on the pay scale.

There is an allowance added to teachers that work within a certain distance of London and it increases as you move closer to the centre. It is quickly taken up by rent and commuting, but it is a nice gesture!

Treppen

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Good idea in theory but I'd wonder about the depth of knowledge, good if your coming from a related field but do people go from English and History into it?

Ii'd love to see it opened to engineers wit an integrated PME.....all in one year. Project maths is very focused on the type of maths they would have studied too!

I did the course and it was manageable but we had a good friends group who helped each other if we were stuck. You would really need an aptitude though and be teaching it in some form. There was one teacher beside me in week 1 and the tutor did the -b formula on the board, she said "wow that's a handy formula I better take that down"... They were gone by week 3.

Have to say the university tutors we had were excellent and really patient , it was interesting to hear the stuff they were doing in 3rd level and their thoughts on how maths learning comes through from secondary.

Engineers should be allowed do the course as a conversion, but I suppose they'd need to do all the general teaching methodologies , psychology, history , SEN from PME to be kosher.

Treppen

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I'd also say of the 6/7 schools I'd know well, over half are toxic environments because of management. A well educated person with good maths skills and the personality to teach could certainly earn very good money elsewhere without the completely unchecked megalomania of some principals and deputies

A lot of the older and wiser principals were given the heavehoe during the last recession.

GooglePlus

I've a degree in Mathematics and I'd love to become a secondary teacher but it's been near impossible for me to get a job, so I've joined the CS.

Treppen

GooglePlus wrote: »

I've a degree in Mathematics and I'd love to become a secondary teacher but it's been near impossible for me to get a job, so I've joined the CS.

Have you a PME? You could do one part time with Hibernia?

Although do the maths, you wouldn't carry over your increment from the CS to teaching, not sure about pension.

Even with a degree with maths the TC might tell you you don't have the right amount of modules to qualify (assuming you had the PME).

am_zarathustra

If your on the new pension it definitely carries over. It would be worth looking at Hibernia, but to be honest, if we got a good PME in the school (Dublin) I'd have them on hours in a few weeks and the subbing is plentiful. We had dips last year coming out with 500 a week! We also continued giving them a few hours in lockdown. Not as much but a bit to keep the online learning going

RealJohn

Treppen wrote: »

Although do the maths, you wouldn't carry over your increment from the CS to teaching, not sure about pension.

My understanding was that you could carry your increments over, if your previous job was related closely enough to your subject area. I've a colleague, mind, who's fighting with them to get them to recognise his experience in the business sector since he's a business teacher, to no luck so far. He thinks he has a case though.

shesty

onrail wrote: »

I'm gathering from this thread that it isn't straightforward (or even possible) for an engineer with a maths heavy degree and masters to pursue maths teaching?

No it's not.....I am an engineer and I looked into it a few years ago.Maybe if you were straight out of college you could change over, but if you have bills and/or a family and the rest, it is more hassle than it's worth. There are a lot of hoops to jump through.If I remember correctly it's a good 2 years fulltime to switch and I don't think they even consider you fully qualified then.It's a big ask.

More annoying is that it's not just the learning how teach element that they are concerned about, they don't consider your maths to be enough so you have to do ....more.Which takes up a good bit of time...

shesty

newuser99999 wrote: »

It’s not. Have a friend who did data science and analytics couldn’t do maths teaching because their degree didn’t have certain math modules you would need.

But you can hop from engineering to data analytics fairly ok....part time Masters.

Polka_Dot

trihead wrote: »

I haven't seen it advertised yet but there is the maths post-grad being introduced again - free one for existing teachers to retrain. UL had the contract the last time but not sure who who won the tender this time round.

Is that definitely going ahead? I saw calls for it last year but haven't seen anything since, granted COVID has probably taken all the attention. I'm doing the PME now (having changed career) and like many don't have enough/the "correct" credits for maths, but am doing it in the PME along with my science subject that I can register with. I'd be interested in doing the course to be able to register fully, and would appreciate a bit of a refresher in some of the content.

Treppen

Polka_Dot wrote: »

Is that definitely going ahead? I saw calls for it last year but haven't seen anything since, granted COVID has probably taken all the attention. I'm doing the PME now (having changed career) and like many don't have enough/the "correct" credits for maths, but am doing it in the PME along with my science subject that I can register with. I'd be interested in doing the course to be able to register fully, and would appreciate a bit of a refresher in some of the content.

The previous running of the course you had to be teaching maths in some capacity in a school, although ....if you had an amicable principal...

Once your in a school most principals won't care about the teaching council as you'll be registered to be paid for whatever you teach with Science.

T there are a few teachers on here who did the extra modules with OU , but now I'm not sure if the TC want a bunch of teaching methodology modules on top (which you might be ok with the PME). OU is expensive though, especially if you're already working away at maths in a school. I think the DIT did modules at the time too.

But dealing with the Teaching Council is far far worse than the worst student you will ever teach. They should do a 'Coping with the Teaching Council' module in the PME.

Polka_Dot

Yeah I'm already doing some maths in placement (or at least was last year) as I'm doing the methodology modules in the PME, which the TC do require. I doubt I'd be doing the course this year anyway with the workload I'll have, but if it goes ahead next year too (which I believe was in the plan) then I'd definitely like to take it on.

am_zarathustra

Polka_Dot wrote: »

Yeah I'm already doing some maths in placement (or at least was last year) as I'm doing the methodology modules in the PME, which the TC do require. I doubt I'd be doing the course this year anyway with the workload I'll have, but if it goes ahead next year too (which I believe was in the plan) then I'd definitely like to take it on.

If you are in a related subject like Science you may not need to. I mostly teach Maths, all the way to HL leaving cert, its not my teaching council subject. One year of covering and it was clear I was more than capable. Going back to get the extra modules would have cost a fortune and I had a very large amount of maths in my degree, especially in first and second year of college.

Polka_Dot

am_zarathustra wrote: »

If you are in a related subject like Science you may not need to. I mostly teach Maths, all the way to HL leaving cert, its not my teaching council subject. One year of covering and it was clear I was more than capable. Going back to get the extra modules would have cost a fortune and I had a very large amount of maths in my degree, especially in first and second year of college.

I have a feeling this will be my case as well, I'm in Dublin where the shortage seems to be. If the postgrad course is offered again I'll do it (IIRC it was proposed as being free for practising teachers) but I can't see myself needing to go out of pocket for additional modules. Likewise I have a lot of maths in first and second year, after that less "official" maths but still needed a good knowledge of stats etc.

am_zarathustra

Same as me, you won't have a bother in Dublin. Once they find out your a decent Maths teacher they won't care what the piece of paper says. Definitely don't go spending money on it, lord knows the PME is expensive enough as is. If you want a job next year I'd have one, I'd say you'd nearly pick one up by accident on the street. We had so few applicants this year, anyone interested enough to be on a teaching forum during their PME will be fine

Alex86Eire

I did the free two year part time maths course in the last few years and can't say it really benefited my teaching. The course was outdated so a lot of the content we were covering had nothing at all to do with the current LC HL course.
If there is a new course coming out I hope it has been updated.