The Erosion of Free Speech

jaxxx

I'm not going to say much on this. I'm neither so arrogant nor hypocritical to claim my level of intellectualism would come so close to even spit at the levels of such people such as Stephen Fry, Christopher Hitchens (RIP), Rowan Atkinson who I'll be linking a video of at the end, where he spoke some years back regarding a campaign in the UK basically defending the right of free speech.

Often people use free speech as an excuse to say whatever they want. However on the opposing side and something which is becoming frighteningly more commonplace in society these days worldwide, people claim free speech can not be used in manners of offense or insult. In the age we're living in, it would be the latter this would pertain to much more so than the former. This part in particular would stem from Rowan's speech in the video below.

There are many issues rampant in society, championed largely by advocates of "left-wing" and "right-wing" realms of thinking. Now I shall not be referring to any in particular, something I encourage everyone else to do also. This is a discussion about the idea of free speech, and how its use is becoming more and more common as a tool for bigoted agendas by those too afraid to hear any ideas which dare criticise, ridicule or question theiir own. I dare say there isn't much happening in this world today where this could actually not be applied to, such is the state in which we find ourselves in this age.

I for one prefer to be grounded firmly in the centre, to maintain as close to perfect equilibrium as I can possibly maintain; something which I shall, as everyone shall, fail but endeavour to see things from all angle as best we are able. For me, it allows negotiation, it allows compromise, it allows empathy. These are things I rarely see from both opposing sides of the left/right brigades. So obsessed with their own ideologies, so drenched in their own hypocrisies that it's a wonder how they can see anything beyond the scope of the bridge of their own nose.


I suppose I do digress slightly. However, I find it utterly alarming that we're in an age where to question, criticise or even so dare as to simply disagree is automatically branded as to be intentionally insulting or offensive, when the very definition of these is the complete opposite. Where would society be if we could not question or disagree throughout the ages with something we felt was wrong? I find it baffling how easy it is to invite violence towards something where there was none to begin with.


A few quotes I found today which resonated with me which I'd like to share, both from the comments on the video below:

"Cutting someone's tongue out doesn't make them wrong, it means you're afraid of what they have to say"

"If people cannot control their emotions, then they have to start trying to control other people's behaviours" - originally quoted by John Cleese I believe.

Having opposing views or opinions does not equate to a hatred or intolerance for something, but there are so many in this day that truly believe that. And I cannot understand why. Is it a fear of critique? A fear that you may be wrong? I don't understand. Why be fearful, why be so opposed to differing opinions, why automatically join the bandwagon to tarnish anyone who dares speak their own beliefs and opinions simply because it's not part of your doctrine?

I find basic logic, the basic common sense we are born with becoming increasingly so endangered, and in truth it worries me. Where are we headed where to voice out opinions is to commit a lawful offense? To me, it seems to be heading down that path. To me, it sounds awfully similar to fascism.



We each of us have different opinions. We each are entitled to our opinions, such is our right being born in a democratic society. I have argued with many where our views have clashed. I will be the first to admit that I have let my frustrations get the better of me on many an occasion, so too will I on many an occasion to come as well! But even in frustration, there is tolerance.

I will never deny someone their right to argue or disagree about something, regardless of how strong I believe in something, how frustrated I get, no matter how many f-bombs I might dish out, no matter if I call them a fool, they me a fool; or any of that. That however, is not a courtesy I see being too often extended, if at all, from those on the 'extreme' sides.


Guess I ended up saying more than I thought I would. Free speech should not be used as an excuse to say whatever the hell you want. But people with differing views should not have their tongues silenced either just because you disagree with what they are saying. One term thrown around a lot today is 'progressive society'. Well, I fail to see how that is the case when opposing views are not afforded the same arena.

Silentcorner

I don't know how many comedians have expressed similar views at this stage, it is the real canary in the coal mine, we are not in a liberal society if comedians are policed to within a very narrow avenue of expression, it is extremely unhealthy in free society....

This is affecting a number of elements of modern day culture...we are no longer allowed to switch off and allow ourselves to be entertained unless it is given the green light by the puritans....I'm watching the netflix series on Monty Python at the moment, back in the 60s they faced similar dynamics it is dangerous to underestimate how motivated idealogues will go to shut down what it doesn't approve of!!!

JasonStatham

I'm not going to say much on this.... writes a big honkin post

jaxxx

JasonStatham wrote: »

I'm not going to say much on this.... writes a big honkin post

jaxxx wrote: »

Guess I ended up saying more than I thought I would.

Try reading the full thing first. Special colour too just for you.

jaxxx

Silentcorner wrote: »

I don't know how many comedians have expressed similar views at this stage, it is the real canary in the coal mine, we are not in a liberal society if comedians are policed to within a very narrow avenue of expression, it is extremely unhealthy in free society....

This is affecting a number of elements of modern day culture...we are no longer allowed to switch off and allow ourselves to be entertained unless it is given the green light by the puritans....I'm watching the netflix series on Monty Python at the moment, back in the 60s they faced similar dynamics it is dangerous to underestimate how motivated idealogues will go to shut down what it doesn't approve of!!!

Amen to that.

Manach

The list of alloweable opinions is decreasing and the chilling effecting of cancel culture makes Ireland and Britain more intolerant of dissenting voices in the past. In the UK there was late writer Rodger Scurton being dismissed from his post, by what turned out to be a selective interview of his defence of traditional beiefs. The interviewer then post a picutre of a champagne bottle to celebrate. In Ireland, the planned banning of silent pro-life vigils in designated exclusion zones makes even voiceless political speech illegal if it is deemed objectionable to radicialised politicians.
Legally, the only exception the threat of immediate risk to harm to others is the standard that common law countries that have Free speach constitutional provisions ( source Trigger Warning by Mick Hume). Unfortunately it seems that soon the only speech allowed is that which is agreeable to the government and its backers.

jaxxx

What's that other thing, cultural appropiation isn't it? I remember something only a few weeks back about a girl in America somewhere (New York was it?) who loved Irish dancing and she was receiving abuse online/threats and so forth because she was African American??

Found the vid actually:

Cultural appropriation my hole, it's cultural appreciation as far as I can see! I wish her every success in her dancing!

One eyed Jack

We live in a period in history where the right to freedom of expression and freedom of speech is available to more people than at any time throughout human history.

Free speech isn’t going anywhere, although it’s a good idea for everyone to know the difference between free speech and their perceived right to a platform by which they are able to exercise their rights to freedom of speech and freedom of expression to as wide and broad an audience as possible.

We’ve come a long way from a time when man blew pigment on the walls of their cave dwellings, to the development of print media, to the development of digital media, each time giving more and more people the freedom to express themselves.

Ironically it’s the people who are spreading the most fearmongering about the impending danger to free speech who are the most threatened by everyone having equal freedom and ability as they do, to express themselves, and oh boy do they find it offensive to their sensibilities - it’s not what people are saying that offends them, it’s the fact that other people have equal freedom, opportunity and capacity to say anything at all, as doing so means their opinions become of lesser value.

touts

All thoughts are equal but some thoughts are more equal than others.

i_surge

Where is the outlet for the outrage of the rational centrist at this failure of humanity we are witnessing play out?

#confused

ExMachina1000

Try having libertarian views.

Everyone gives you abuse. All sides

Hotblack Desiato

Ain't nobody got time for that OP, but thread title is horsesh!t. There is more free speech now than there ever has been.


NB funny colour fonts don't work on the touch site.

The_Brood

One eyed Jack wrote: »

We live in a period in history where the right to freedom of expression and freedom of speech is available to more people than at any time throughout human history.

Free speech isn’t going anywhere, although it’s a good idea for everyone to know the difference between free speech and their perceived right to a platform by which they are able to exercise their rights to freedom of speech and freedom of expression to as wide and broad an audience as possible.

We’ve come a long way from a time when man blew pigment on the walls of their cave dwellings, to the development of print media, to the development of digital media, each time giving more and more people the freedom to express themselves.

Ironically it’s the people who are spreading the most fearmongering about the impending danger to free speech who are the most threatened by everyone having equal freedom and ability as they do, to express themselves, and oh boy do they find it offensive to their sensibilities - it’s not what people are saying that offends them, it’s the fact that other people have equal freedom, opportunity and capacity to say anything at all, as doing so means their opinions become of lesser value.

Absolute complete and utter nonsense. In the west you are threatened with losing your job, career, livelihood if you are branded as having committed a "microagression" against very select and socially privelaged minority groups, under the false pretense of "hate speech." That is the exact opposite of free speech.

Irishman80

There has always been a battle for freedoms like speech, expression, and religious liberty. This will never change.

nigeldaniel

My issue with free speech, or the increasing lack of it, been, some folks want to see discrimination they will, if more want to see racism they will, regardless of what was the situation was in the beginning. Sometimes a person can not say a simple thing without fear of offending someone else. That is not free at all. In fact, it is one step away from the very things free speech is supposed to champion.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

It's like the "no free speech for traitors" hypocricy trotted out back in the 80s and 90s ultra-nationalist morons: "you can have free speech, but only if I agree with it or get a chacne to censor it first".

Free speech is fine procvided it does not contain violence. I'm even ok with hate speech, but not if veers into slander or libel.

biko

Society have now reached Idi Amin levels

One eyed Jack

The_Brood wrote: »

Absolute complete and utter nonsense. In the west you are threatened with losing your job, career, livelihood if you are branded as having committed a "microagression" against very select and socially privelaged minority groups, under the false pretense of "hate speech." That is the exact opposite of free speech.

Yeah I hear some people say that a lot - “You can’t say this, that or the other nowadays”, they just did say it, and the world didn’t come down around them. They’re fine.

It’s almost as though some people are disappointed when they realise nobody gives a shìt.

i_surge

One eyed Jack wrote: »

when they realise nobody gives a shìt.

If only that was true. Twitter hate mobs are a real phenomenon.

If one has the ability to speak, then there is always freedom to speak. The consequences of speaking are a different matter.

People living in the Soviet Union could say anything they wanted. Once.

Comedians like John Cleese and Rowan Atkinson made fortunes belittling religion, tradition, and "small-minded" people who wanted to live among their own kind. It's a bit rich of them to complain now the progressive juggernaut they rode to success continues to plough through what's left of their country.

They can see that comedic trade that made them rich would be impossible now, but that's too bad.

One eyed Jack

i_surge wrote: »

If only that was true. Twitter hate mobs are a real phenomenon.

I know Twitter mobs are a real phenomenon, that’s people using their equal rights to freedom of expression and freedom of speech as the person who exercises their rights to freedom of expression and freedom of speech. Freedom from the consequences of one’s actions is a different thing entirely.

i_surge

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I know Twitter mobs are a real phenomenon, that’s people using their equal rights to freedom of expression and freedom of speech as the person who exercises their rights to freedom of expression and freedom of speech. Freedom from the consequences of one’s actions is a different thing entirely.

You are going round in circles, all just cliched tropes, added to ignore list. I'm out.

salmocab

There is a misunderstanding as to what free speech is a lot of the time. People in this part of the world are free to say a lot of things but nobody is free from the consequences of what they say.
Surely even people calling for the banning or cancellation of things (usually Or often it being nonsense) Are also exercising free speech. People can say what they want within the laws of the land but that doesn’t mean everyone should just accept it. I find a lot of the complaining about free speech is laced with irony.

One eyed Jack

i_surge wrote: »

You are going round in circles, all just cliched tropes, added to ignore list. I'm out.

You pointed out that Twitter mobs are a thing, yes they are, precisely because more people than ever before have equal opportunity as everyone else to use their rights to freedom of speech and freedom of expression to call for people to be fired or arrested or whatever else when people express themselves in a way that other people find offensive.

There would be no value in freedom of speech or freedom of expression if there were no consequences for expressing oneself, when the point of expressing oneself is to complain about other people in the first place in the hope that those people will be shut down.

People only complain when the consequences of them expressing themselves are negative, when the whole point of them expressing themselves in the first place is that they expect the consequences to be positive - adulation and support from people who already agree with their opinions and the way they express themselves. Surely as mature adults, people who are regarded as intellectuals even, they are aware that the people they speak of are under no obligation to tolerate that persons crap?

i_surge

salmocab wrote: »

There is a misunderstanding as to what free speech is a lot of the time. People in this part of the world are free to say a lot of things but nobody is free from the consequences of what they say.
Surely even people calling for the banning or cancellation of things (usually Or often it being nonsense) Are also exercising free speech. People can say what they want within the laws of the land but that doesn’t mean everyone should just accept it. I find a lot of the complaining about free speech is laced with irony.

Plenty of "witches" burned by those exercising their rights in the same way.

We would joke in school at the barbarism and ignorance behind it all.

tjhook

salmocab wrote: »

There is a misunderstanding as to what free speech is a lot of the time. People in this part of the world are free to say a lot of things but nobody is free from the consequences of what they say.

If a bishop was to say this in 1950s Ireland, would you have been nodding in agreement?

Your Face

"A man was arrested for calling a police horse gay"

That's magnificent.

biko

biko wrote: »

Society have now reached Idi Amin levels

I would say that's an incredibly ignorant view and pretty insulting towards the people who fell victim to him.

Mardy Bum

Democracy is in a sorry state when the predominantly right wing media ran by a handful of individuals across the world manage to convince the planet that "freedom of speech" is a serious issue that should concern us.

Right wing governments are finding success on every continent and clowns are blaming a few anonymous accounts on left wing twitter for bringing about the end of civilisation. These government have shut down independent media, kill journalists, seek to destroy the environment for monetary gain and crush civil protest.

Anyone who things this is a serious issue now is living in a bubble.

salmocab

tjhook wrote: »

If a bishop was to say this in 1950s Ireland, would you have been nodding in agreement?

I’m genuinely not sure what your getting at.

i_surge

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Democracy is in a sorry state when the predominantly right wing media ran by a handful of individuals across the world manage to convince the planet that "freedom of speech" is a serious issue that should concern us.

Right wing governments are finding success on every continent and clowns are blaming a few anonymous accounts on left wing twitter for bringing about the end of civilisation. These government have shut down independent media, kill journalists, seek to destroy the environment for monetary gain and crush civil protest.

Anyone who things this is a serious issue now is living in a bubble.

And where do some people recoiling from some of the distasteful antics of the hard left turn to?

We have lads in rural Ireland radicalised like the best of them, when in reality the issues will never come to their doorstep, where did all that come from?

A society in factions is good for nobody.

tjhook

salmocab wrote: »

I’m genuinely not sure what your getting at.

What you're saying would sound very natural coming from the mouth of a bishop in the 1950s. I'm asking if you would agree with the church taking a similar approach to free speech in the 1950s?

salmocab

tjhook wrote: »

What you're saying would sound very natural coming from the mouth of a bishop in the 1950s. I'm asking if you would agree with the church taking a similar approach to free speech in the 1950s?

The church would be free to make any statement they wanted, it’s up to their members to believe or not believe it. I wouldn’t agree that if people did certain things that they would go to hell but if the church want to make that claim that’s their business. Free speech without risk of consequence doesn’t exist anywhere on the planet.

tjhook

salmocab wrote: »

The church would be free to make any statement they wanted, it’s up to their members to believe or not believe it. I wouldn’t agree that if people did certain things that they would go to hell but if the church want to make that claim that’s their business. Free speech without risk of consequence doesn’t exist anywhere on the planet.

So you'd be ok with the church going after and threatening the livelihoods of people who say things it doesn't agree with? It happened, and I wouldn't be ok with it.

salmocab

tjhook wrote: »

So you'd be ok with the church going after and threatening the livelihoods of people who say things it doesn't agree with? It happened, and I wouldn't be ok with it.

No I wouldn’t be okay with it at all. I’m honestly not sure how you arrived at that.

tjhook

salmocab wrote: »

No I wouldn’t be okay with it at all. I’m honestly not sure how you arrived at that.

It was a question - I wasn't seeing a Yes or No before your response above, but now I'm clear.

Can I take it then that you're also not ok with groups or mobs of people doing the same today?

salmocab

tjhook wrote: »

It was a question - I wasn't seeing a Yes or No before your response above, but now I'm clear.

Can I take it then that you're also not ok with groups or mobs of people doing the same today?

No I’m not okay with groups making outrageous statements about what will happen to people if......
those people obviously have the right to make those claims so long as it’s not hate speech but they also in turn aren’t free of people deriding them or protesting them and their nonsense.
My point is that free speech is not free from consequence. They may not be prosecuted due to free speech but that doesn’t mean their standing in the community would be unaltered. We’re all free to think more or less of people based on what they say or do.

growleaves

growleaves

Blah blah blah I'm in favour of speech unless it causes hurt feelings and of course you're not free from the consequences of your speech like being dipped into a large vat of sulphuric acid by little flint-hearted cultural dictators. That's called freedom of expression blah blah blah you're lucky you live in the 21st century

salmocab

growleaves wrote: »

Blah blah blah I'm in favour of speech unless it causes hurt feelings and of course you're not free from the consequences of your speech like being dipped into a large vat of sulphuric acid by little flint-hearted cultural dictators. That's called freedom of expression blah blah blah you're lucky you live in the 21st century

I’m sure your making a point

RandomName2

growleaves wrote: »

I think that cancel culture, and general wankery by conservatives in recent years (Trump being a prime example), has shown so-called liberals that being a complete arsehole is not some amazing game-winning move. If your inability to argue prompts you to just scream down the opposition and throw free speech under a bus, don't be surprised when the only people who are left to argue with are simply people who will shout louder than you.

Sonic the Shaghog

To be honest I think any free and fair society should enshrine the freedom of speech, the press etc akin to teh US in its Constitution

Yes it has its troubles and some unsavoury types get to have have rallies but it's far better than risking the slippery slope

It's of the things they have right IMO

The_Brood

salmocab wrote: »

No I’m not okay with groups making outrageous statements about what will happen to people if......
those people obviously have the right to make those claims so long as it’s not hate speech but they also in turn aren’t free of people deriding them or protesting them and their nonsense.
My point is that free speech is not free from consequence. They may not be prosecuted due to free speech but that doesn’t mean their standing in the community would be unaltered. We’re all free to think more or less of people based on what they say or do.

The issue is not anyone disagreeing or criticizing you on social media, the issue is people - all kinds, from academics to writers but also and especially regular folk - having their jobs threatened and their livelihoods taken away because perceived "wrongthink" is immediately labeled as "hate speech." Students punished in school for thinking differently from their professors and peers etc. If you don't see that happening, you are in your comfortable socially-backed bubble and have your ears plugged. And endless more cases of people being successfully intimated and prevented from speaking their mind because of the consequences to their livelihood.

If I believe in an idea, I would want it challenged and debated out in the open by those that feel differently. I would not measure my success by how many jobs I cost and how much fear of speaking out I instill in people.

i_surge

RandomName2 wrote: »

I think that cancel culture, and general wankery by conservatives in recent years (Trump being a prime example), has shown so-called liberals that being a complete arsehole is not some amazing game-winning move. If your inability to argue prompts you to just scream down the opposition and throw free speech under a bus, don't be surprised when the only people who are left to argue with are simply people who will shout louder than you.

Only simple people act like that. They don't have the intelligence to debate the points so they roll on the floor and scream like children.