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  • 15-08-2020 12:26am
    #1
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,363 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Irish Steve


    OK, this is an unusual situation, but it's where we're at with things.

    House is a 1990 traditional build 3000 sq ft dormer bungalow, after the cavity walls were filled by SEAI in 2013, the BER at the time was C2, and since then, one face of the roof has been refelted to resolve issues with leaks and the draught on that face has reduced considerably after fitting new trays at the fascia level, and we've removed one gas fire and closed off the chimney completely.

    The existing heating system is a 30 year old Rio Sime oil boiler that has been kept maintained over the years, and it does the job it's there for. it's rated at 120,000 Bthu, and I know from timer information that the burner only operates for 50% of the pump run time, and that's based on time recorder clocks that have been in place for a very long time.

    The DHW is a recent (replacement) insulated cylinder with an external heat exchanger, there is a standby immersion, but it's very rarely used, as the boiler is set up to be able to provide hot water only.

    Cooking is a mix of LPG hob, on cylinders, and an electric oven.

    Radiators are zoned upstairs and downstairs, with thermostatic valves on the radiators, other than the bathroom, which is not zoned, it works with heating or hot water active.

    We had a major under floor leak 6 months ago, there was a 90 elbow in the centre of a 70 Ft run, and the elbow cracked, and leaked significantly, but it's been repaired and there no evidence of leaks, and no radiators showing any evidence of sludging, and while repairing the leak, a magnatec was fitted to try and keep things running OK as the whole system had to be drained.

    So, that's the history, now to the catch 22.

    OPW are carrying out a major flood scheme through our site, with Meath CC as the controlling and funding organisation, and the oil tank has to be significantly relocated to allow them to carry out the job, it's too close to their work site.

    The old tank is 2500 Ltrs, and my understanding is that if they put a new tank in, it has to be a bunded tank, which is not cheap, and I am wondering if I should look at a different option. They have to pay for all the related works, so relocating the existing tank to keep us with a working heating system for the coming winter, and then moving it back, with replacing the oil tank is going to probably cost at least €2500 with the civil works and the cost of the new tank, as there's also a 70 Mtr 50mm gunbarrel pipe to allow the tank to be filled, getting a tanker in wasn't an easy option, so a feed pipe to the entrance off the road was fitted a long time ago, and that's also affected by the works, so it will have to be replaced.

    I am wondering if I should talk to the local authority ( the controlling organisation) and seek to change our heating system, rather than spend the money on a new tank and replacement fill pipe.

    As I see it, I have 2 options.

    The first would be to get natural gas installed, we don't have gas on site at present, there are 2 feed pipes in local roads, but Bord Gais wanted obscene money to put a feed in the last time we inquired, it needs about 70 mtrs of pipe from the shared service feeds, but with the civil works that are to be done, a gas pipe would not need significant excavation to put in now, and that would require nothing significant to be done to the rest of the heating and hot water, other than to make sure that it's flushed when the new boiler goes in, the boiler is in a separate boiler room within the structure of the house, and plenty of room to put a gas boiler in.

    The other option would be to look at something like an Air to Water pump, which could be managed very easily, as we have 3 phase power on site, so even with possibly long term electric vehicle charging, we have the capacity to cope with it.

    What I can't determine is if the Air to water is a bridge too far at this stage, hopefully we can now get spray foam insulation in the roof as the leak issues are resolved, which should help the BER significantly.

    Is Air to Water a viable option, or am I better to look at natural gas, given that gas will become an issue at some stage?

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 19,020 ✭✭✭✭ Water John


    I think Air to Water (A2W) will require aluminium radiators as the temp will be 40C. Three phase is a good advantage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭ Coltrane


    OK, this is an unusual situation, but it's where we're at with things.

    House is a 1990 traditional build 3000 sq ft dormer bungalow, after the cavity walls were filled by SEAI in 2013, the BER at the time was C2, and since then, one face of the roof has been refelted to resolve issues with leaks and the draught on that face has reduced considerably after fitting new trays at the fascia level, and we've removed one gas fire and closed off the chimney completely.

    The existing heating system is a 30 year old Rio Sime oil boiler that has been kept maintained over the years, and it does the job it's there for. it's rated at 120,000 Bthu, and I know from timer information that the burner only operates for 50% of the pump run time, and that's based on time recorder clocks that have been in place for a very long time.

    The DHW is a recent (replacement) insulated cylinder with an external heat exchanger, there is a standby immersion, but it's very rarely used, as the boiler is set up to be able to provide hot water only.

    Cooking is a mix of LPG hob, on cylinders, and an electric oven.

    Radiators are zoned upstairs and downstairs, with thermostatic valves on the radiators, other than the bathroom, which is not zoned, it works with heating or hot water active.

    We had a major under floor leak 6 months ago, there was a 90 elbow in the centre of a 70 Ft run, and the elbow cracked, and leaked significantly, but it's been repaired and there no evidence of leaks, and no radiators showing any evidence of sludging, and while repairing the leak, a magnatec was fitted to try and keep things running OK as the whole system had to be drained.

    So, that's the history, now to the catch 22.

    OPW are carrying out a major flood scheme through our site, with Meath CC as the controlling and funding organisation, and the oil tank has to be significantly relocated to allow them to carry out the job, it's too close to their work site.

    The old tank is 2500 Ltrs, and my understanding is that if they put a new tank in, it has to be a bunded tank, which is not cheap, and I am wondering if I should look at a different option. They have to pay for all the related works, so relocating the existing tank to keep us with a working heating system for the coming winter, and then moving it back, with replacing the oil tank is going to probably cost at least €2500 with the civil works and the cost of the new tank, as there's also a 70 Mtr 50mm gunbarrel pipe to allow the tank to be filled, getting a tanker in wasn't an easy option, so a feed pipe to the entrance off the road was fitted a long time ago, and that's also affected by the works, so it will have to be replaced.

    I am wondering if I should talk to the local authority ( the controlling organisation) and seek to change our heating system, rather than spend the money on a new tank and replacement fill pipe.

    As I see it, I have 2 options.

    The first would be to get natural gas installed, we don't have gas on site at present, there are 2 feed pipes in local roads, but Bord Gais wanted obscene money to put a feed in the last time we inquired, it needs about 70 mtrs of pipe from the shared service feeds, but with the civil works that are to be done, a gas pipe would not need significant excavation to put in now, and that would require nothing significant to be done to the rest of the heating and hot water, other than to make sure that it's flushed when the new boiler goes in, the boiler is in a separate boiler room within the structure of the house, and plenty of room to put a gas boiler in.

    The other option would be to look at something like an Air to Water pump, which could be managed very easily, as we have 3 phase power on site, so even with possibly long term electric vehicle charging, we have the capacity to cope with it.

    What I can't determine is if the Air to water is a bridge too far at this stage, hopefully we can now get spray foam insulation in the roof as the leak issues are resolved, which should help the BER significantly.

    Is Air to Water a viable option, or am I better to look at natural gas, given that gas will become an issue at some stage?

    I put an A2W (and UFH, new alu rads and a large solar-PV array) into a large period house with at the time slightly weaker BER two years ago.

    It does the job of heating the old house without the massive running costs that many warned of.

    On the other hand the upfront/maintenance/replacement -costs are undoubtedly much higher than gas.

    Bear in mind - when comparing costs - the comfort value of having a constant, 24/7 temperature, compared to gas CH which will tend to blow hot and cold.

    And getting A2W may incentivise other eco measures to the house as you work to get the electricity bills down on the colder nights!

    My advice is to go for A2W if you/OPW can manage the higher upfront costs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,919 ✭✭✭✭ Calahonda52


    1. get a simple blower door test done to see how leaky the house is. this is crucial for A2W.
    2. forget abut spray foam, remove the first few slates, fit ceiling level insulation , with ventilation baffles, and tie the wall insulation into the ceiling and have it airtight, but breathable.
    3. replace all GB piping.
    4. as its rads, fit a buffer tank to avail of night rate


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