Turkey's aggression towards Greece

biko

Mr Tayyip Erdoğan is really pushing it with Europe, mainly neighbour Greece.

Last year Turkey tried to flood Europe with refugees.
Now it looks like Erdoğan is pushing to become a major leader of the Islamic world.
Remember that the capital of the Ottoman Empire was Istanbul so he has history to uphold.
Converting Haga Sofia into a mosque was a first step back to Ottoman times.

He is also trying to undo the Treaty of Lausanne. Mr Erdogan said the 1923 treaty that settled Turkey's borders after World War One was not being applied fairly.

For reasons of ideology, economics, and ego, Erdoğan now seeks to undo the Lausanne Treaty: Ideology because Erdoğan seeks to regain control of certain Ottoman territories and change the demographics of areas outside Turkey’s borders; economics because Turkey seeks to steal resources from recognized Greek and Cypriot exclusive economic zones; and, ego, because Erdoğan wants to top Atatürk’s legacy as a military victor.

Greek and Turkish fighter jets engaged in mock dogfights this week over the Greek island of Kastellorizo, just a mile and a half from the Turkish coast, causing tourists to flee.

It has now slammed a maritime agreement betwixt Egypt and Greece.

Both Merkel and Macron has tried to negotiate.

dxhound2005

As someone said about the "Irish Problem", put the whole lot of them on an island somewhere and let them sort it out among themselves. Maybe Cyprus.

Zebra3

If he attacks Greece, then NATO is obliged to defend Greece so I doubt much will happen, if it does, it doesn't bode well for Turkey.

dxhound2005

Turkey is a member of NATO.

Zebra3

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Turkey is a member of NATO.

And?

Eduard Khil

Constantinople was capital of the Roman Empire a helluva lot more significant than Istanbul and the Byzantine empire.

This Turkish guy is the pure epitome of paranoid delusions beset on all sides by enemies he has to strike first for fear of being taken out. A calling card of the dictator.

Your Face

He really wants to get into a scrap with the Greeks?
He is a backwards clown who knows his power is slipping.

Eduard Khil

Power for a dictator is emphasized by force as long as he continues these shows of force he has the power

biko

Your Face wrote: »

He really wants to get into a scrap with the Greeks?

Yes, he knows the Greeks cannot handle a full-on Turkish attack.
The Turkish army is way more seasoned.

EU won't have the balls to do anything, and since US has bases in Turkey they are not likely to interfere, which leaves Russia.
Putin can stop Erdogan but the question is, does he want to?

Yurt2

biko wrote: »

Yes, he knows the Greeks cannot handle a full-on Turkish attack.
The Turkish army is way more seasoned.

EU won't have the balls to do anything, and since US has bases in Turkey they are not likely to interfere, which leaves Russia.
Putin can stop Erdogan but the question is, does he want to?

The Turks are already hanging on to their status as NATO allies by a thread as it is. They're the odd man out values-wise. They may as well shoot themselves in the d*ck at the same time as attacking Greece. NATO would not stand by if the autocratic black sheep of the family attacked a democratic treaty ally that is also an EU member.

fly_agaric

Biko wrote:

EU won't have the balls to do anything

What has the EUs "balls" got to do with it Biko?
The EU doesn't have an army for all the Irish eurosceptic wailing about it over the years so can't do much militarily if Turkey actually attacks Greece. There is a mutual defence clause in treaties afair but to actually implement it will be up to the member states that have those capabilities.

biko

If Greece and Turkey kick off then 4 million Turks living in Germany might just get involved too.

Your Face

biko wrote: »

Yes, he knows the Greeks cannot handle a full-on Turkish attack.
The Turkish army is way more seasoned.

This type of thinking is where every would-be invader of Greece becomes undone.

biko

It's been a while since Xerxes

return guide

biko wrote: »

Yes, he knows the Greeks cannot handle a full-on Turkish attack.
The Turkish army is way more seasoned.

Il Duce thought the same in 1940 when he ordered the legions in.:rolleyes:

TheValeyard

Yeah erdogan has a hint of Hitler about him. Maybe his grandad served with the SS or friends with the grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

2u2me

Zebra3 wrote: »

And?

They are the second largest military power in NATO next to the US.

In 2016 Erdogan avoided a coup by the 'peace at home council'. The Council cited an erosion of secularism and elimination of democratic rule.

During the coup 300 were killed and a further 2,100 injured.
More than 77,000 people have since been arrested and over 160,000 fired from their jobs including teachers, judges and soldiers.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/turkey-elections-arrests-insulting-president-erdogan-opposition-a8414146.html

TheBlackPill

It won't be just Greece
As the west appears weak and conflicted any border region with Islam will be targetted. ITs amazing how quickly the Caucasus settled down, when Russia over came its post soviet weakness

Jizique

Yurt! wrote: »

The Turks are already hanging on to their status as NATO allies by a thread as it is. They're the odd man out values-wise. They may as well shoot themselves in the d*ck at the same time as attacking Greece. NATO would not stand by if the autocratic black sheep of the family attacked a democratic treaty ally that is also an EU member.

I thought the US under Trump was the most out there member of NATO

Montage of Feck

Its a tragedy of European history that due to differences in Christian theology the Byzantine empire was abandoned to its fate by Western Europe. They then subsequently abandoned the Greeks and Armenians following WW1 and the fall of the Ottoman empire.

biko

Since Turkey's genocide of the Armenians 100 years ago they have not kept quiet.
Invasion of Cyprus
Invasion of Iraq
Invasion of Libya
Invasion of Syria
They are actively hunting Kurdish fighters, the very men and women that freed the world of ISIS.

The Greek army do not have the same battel-readiness as over 600.000 Turkish soldiers.

biko

biko wrote: »

If Greece and Turkey kick off then 4 million Turks living in Germany might just get involved too.

What do you know about Turks living in Germany? Which Turks do you know? The Erdogan supporters or the Turks who see themselves as Kurds or the Turks who are from less well known schools of Islam who found themselves most unwelcome in Turkey. Are they the Female Turks who enjoy and have enough reminders to appreciate the free lifestyle that they enjoy in Germany.
If you could whip together 200k blowhard Erdogan supporters in Germany you'd be doing well.

biko

Deleted User wrote: »

If you could whip together 200k blowhard Erdogan supporters in Germany you'd be doing well.

Support for Erdogan was proportionally higher among the Turkish community in Germany than it was in Turkey.


https://www.dw.com/en/turks-in-germany-praise-our-leader-after-two-thirds-vote-for-erdogan/a-44378286

dxhound2005

biko wrote: »

Since Turkey's genocide of the Armenians 100 years ago they have not kept quiet.
Invasion of Cyprus
Invasion of Iraq
Invasion of Libya
Invasion of Syria
They are actively hunting Kurdish fighters, the very men and women that freed the world of ISIS.

The Greek army do not have the same battel-readiness as over 600.000 Turkish soldiers.

Looks like they are mostly interested in killing Muslims, not Christians.

biko

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Looks like they are mostly interested in killing Muslims, not Christians.

I doubt they always kill based on religious grounds but Amernians and Greeks are Christians.
The invasion of Iraq and Syria are for Kurds (Sunni I suppose).

dxhound2005

biko wrote: »

I doubt they always kill based on religious grounds but Amernians and Greeks are Christians.
The invasion of Iraq and Syria are for Kurds.

So no, they are not killing Muslims.

Their record against the Kurds does not point to a clean and quick defeat for Greece.

biko

I edited my post. Although Kurds are muslim I think the Turks don't care.
Turks and Kurds have been at ends for as long as anyone can remember.

Zebra3

2u2me wrote: »

They are the second largest military power in NATO next to the US.

In 2016 Erdogan avoided a coup by the 'peace at home council'. The Council cited an erosion of secularism and elimination of democratic rule.

During the coup 300 were killed and a further 2,100 injured.
More than 77,000 people have since been arrested and over 160,000 fired from their jobs including teachers, judges and soldiers.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/turkey-elections-arrests-insulting-president-erdogan-opposition-a8414146.html

If Turkey attacks Greece and NATO members stand by and let Greece be defeated, what's the point of NATO?

The idea of Turkey just strolling into Athens.... :rolleyes:

biko

biko wrote: »

Support for Erdogan was proportionally higher among the Turkish community in Germany than it was in Turkey.


https://www.dw.com/en/turks-in-germany-praise-our-leader-after-two-thirds-vote-for-erdogan/a-44378286

Where did you get the 4 million number from? Only 1.44million Turks in Germany have a right to vote in Turkish elections according to the stats I found and only 1.1million according to your link. Seems it is shrinking by the day.
52.59% who cast their vote in favour of Erdogan.
Only 475k voted according to your report so I stand by statement that you'd be lucky to get 200k blowhards to come out in favour of Turkey and then a huge proportion of them would be beaten off the streets by their owns wives, sons and daughters for the embarrassment they would case.

BTW don't make the mistake of calling a 2nd generation immigrant a Turk. They see themselves as German and expect to be recognised as such.

I suppose the narrative of 4 million rebellious Turks looking to undermine Germany sounds salivating to you and you would like to propagate that misconception.

biko

Should anyone be interested in Turkey's Syria adventures
https://youtu.be/oUeXaPaKF50

biko

Deleted User wrote: »

Where did you get the 4 million number from?

Germany and Turkey have a special and uneasy connection in the form of some four million Turks living in Germany.

https://www.handelsblatt.com/english/handelsblatt-explains-why-german-turks-are-numerous-divided-and-bitter/23568860.html

There are 4 million Turks in Germany. How have they integrated?

https://www.trtworld.com/europe/there-are-4-million-turks-in-germany-how-have-they-integrated--6360

Deleted User wrote: »

I suppose the narrative of 4 million rebellious Turks looking to undermine Germany sounds salivating to you and you would like to propagate that misconception.

I doubt all 4 million would do something but you only need a small number to organise under the Grey Wolves. Do you think no Turks in Germany will act if Turkey goes to war with Greece, considering the support for German-Turkish Erdogan is so big?

dxhound2005

Zebra3 wrote: »

If Turkey attacks Greece and NATO members stand by and let Greece be defeated, what's the point of NATO?

The idea of Turkey just strolling into Athens.... :rolleyes:

As with the UN and the EU, NATO is just a name for a collection of countries. Who will all do their own thing if it suits them not to co-operate.

biko

biko wrote: »

https://www.handelsblatt.com/english/handelsblatt-explains-why-german-turks-are-numerous-divided-and-bitter/23568860.html

https://www.trtworld.com/europe/there-are-4-million-turks-in-germany-how-have-they-integrated--6360


I doubt all 4 million would do something but you only need a small number to organise under the Grey Wolves. Do you think no Turks in Germany will act if Turkey goes to war with Greece, considering the support for German-Turkish Erdogan is so big?

You're reaching. You weren't expecting to be challenged on the mistruth you slipped in to the discussion.

BTW TRTWorld is Turkish Pravda

Yurt2

dxhound2005 wrote: »

As with the UN and the EU, NATO is just a name for a collection of countries. Who will all do their own thing if it suits them not to co-operate.

I don't think Erdogan will be willing to put that theory to the test, and he'd be right.

Erdogan has lost both the West and Russia, he's running out of playpals and don't think he doesn't know NATO command (and his own military for that matter) are aware of it. He'll play nice with Greece if he likes having his head attached to his body.

biko

Deleted User wrote: »

You're reaching. You weren't expecting to be challenged on the mistruth you slipped in to the discussion.

Is that you Tayyip?
Merhaba! Yorumlarınız için kaynak sağlayacak mısınız?

fly_agaric

biko wrote: »

I doubt all 4 million would do something but you only need a small number to organise under the Grey Wolves. Do you think no Turks in Germany will act if Turkey goes to war with Greece, considering the support for German-Turkish Erdogan is so big?

From your link:

More than a third of the people in Germany who have a Turkish background, about 1.5 million, remain Turkish citizens and are thus eligible to vote in Turkish elections.

I remember reading that about 1/2 German Turks who can do so do not bother their arse to vote in Turkey's elections at all.

https://www.dw.com/en/half-of-turks-in-germany-voted-in-2018-election/a-44306175

Am sure a lot of them do have patriotic feeling for Turkey + would be very, very conflicted if Turkey attacked an EU member state (which would mean Germany taking Greece's side, even if it didn't include military support), but the ones that vote + worship Erdogan are a noisy minority it seems.

They can riot and they can cause trouble on the streets when whipped up (which no doubt they would be if Turkey goes to war with Greece) but I'd be surprised if they could do more than that.

biko

biko wrote: »

Is that you Tayyip?
Merhaba!

I'll take that as your capitulation on this particular front.

The Unbearables

Nothing will happen. Just a bollox acting the bollox.

Zebra3

dxhound2005 wrote: »

As with the UN and the EU, NATO is just a name for a collection of countries. Who will all do their own thing if it suits them not to co-operate.

Big part of NATO is ensuring money is diverted from the likes of education and health to war.

Military hardware needs to get used up to justify the expense.

America and Britain love their wars. Can't live without them.

Add in the fact that a good few people would love to hand Erdoğan his arse.

Could also force them out of Cyprus.

Manic Moran

Zebra3 wrote: »

Big part of NATO is ensuring money is diverted from the likes of education and health to war.

Military hardware needs to get used up to justify the expense.

America and Britain love their wars. Can't live without them.

Add in the fact that a good few people would love to hand Erdoğan his arse.

Could also force them out of Cyprus.

There are very few countries which don't spend more on the taxpayer's money on education and health than their defence budgets. Actually, outside of maybe North Korea, I can't think of any, let alone any NATO countries.

As for justification of expense, perhaps you are unaware of just how damned expensive a conflict is. The costs of equipment acquisition suddenly get put into perspective.

I seem to recall that on average, one Greek or Turkish pilot is killed every years in 'mock' dogfights, normally by running into the ground or the sea. There's a bit of sabre rattling, usually by Turkey every few years on top of that which leads to increased alerts and deployments. The geography doesn't seem to encourage use of the large Turkish army.

dere34

Turkey will never join the EU.

igCorcaigh

Might be a useful source to follow.

https://twitter.com/g_mastropavlos/status/1292691784661950464?s=19

Your Face

biko wrote: »

It's been a while since Xerxes

More recently 1830 when they beat out the Ottomans.
Or WW2 when they halted the Italian army and forced the Germans to invade. This led to a massive resistance movement which led to more and more Nazi resources being deployed to Greece.

Reading up on the history of a subject before using it to push a reoccurring agenda can make a poster seem less obvious.

biko

Hopefully it won't come to blows.
Turkey is clearly the aggressor here and I doubt they can spin it any other way, even though I'm sure there will be attempts to do so.

RandomName2

dere34 wrote: »

Turkey will never join the EU.

Yes, and the fact that Erdogan accepts that makes him more dangerous. Were the Turkish economy in better state he'd see no reason at all to not just do as he wanted.

Erdogan has managed to piss off literally every country in Europe and the Middle East. That is pretty impressive.

Okay, with the small exceptions of Azerbaijan, Qatar, and 'North Cyprus'.

Zebra3

Manic Moran wrote: »

As for justification of expense, perhaps you are unaware of just how damned expensive a conflict is. The costs of equipment acquisition suddenly get put into perspective.

Oh no, I'm fully aware.

I'm also fully aware of the cost of human lives, but for many of those blood thirsty cheerleaders of American and British violence, as so many of the victims are brown skinned people in poor countries, they don't matter.

fly_agaric

Zebra3 wrote: »

Oh no, I'm fully aware.

I'm also fully aware of the cost of human lives, but for many of those blood thirsty cheerleaders of American and British violence, as so many of the victims are brown skinned people in poor countries, they don't matter.

My thought is, if it happens with Trump/new look "MAGA" isolationist Republican party at the helm the US will do nothing. Does that comfort you (?) - it should not IMO.

Their committment to NATO is doubtful when there's nothing really concrete "in it" for the US in my laymans/person who keeps an eye on the news judgement.
They might tell Turkey/Greece to stop fighting perhaps, that is it I think.

taegukgi

Do you realize you are all looking at this problem from the wrong angle?
There are sovereignty issues between Turkey and Greece in sea areas of Mediterranean.Even before Erdogan it was a big issue and almost Greece and Turkey was going in to war like 25 years ago for some rocks in the Aegean Sea. So it seems Turkey want to use coastal state's right to explore and exploit the natural resources of its continental shelf.Therefore there are unclaimed areas in Meditarrean.
to claim rights on those areas Turkey had some agreements with Libyan, Italian and Malta governments.In the mean time Greeece had same agreements wıth Egypt and Israel..
so All about natural resources again..
and so this problem already has long history and it is bigger problem than governments in Greece and Turkey.

fly_agaric

taegukgi wrote: »

Do you realize you are all looking at this problem from the wrong angle?

Your post does not really explain why the "tension" occurs now.
Is it not bound up with the current Turkish leader (edit & politics there)? He may need external enemies because he's having trouble now at home. Maybe also the favourable international situation for him.

Even though he criticised the EU unfairly, Biko is actually right that it is quite weak in such situiations because it is divided about strategic (non trade related) issues and they are mainly handled at member state level. As above I think the US will do nothing at all about any Turkish aggression either. Trump sort of admires Erdogan. IMO Trump thinks democracy (negotiation/multilaterlism generally) is for "weakings" and "failures" and the real strong countries are the likes of Russia and China bossed by "hard men" like himself who thrash out "deals" (and maybe turn to aggression when that doesn't work). That can't be good for this situation either.

taegukgi

Already Greece brought soldiers and built military bases on the islands which should be in statue of no mans land according to international law (Ouchy treaty - treaty of Lausanne ) and those military bases which was build on islands are just couple mile away from Turkish coast.Even you can swim from Turkish coasts.(for that reason It was immigrants s favorite location for escaping to Greece)
Therefore Turkey was accusing Greece for violating the treaty of Lausanne by keeping troops on the islands of the Eastern Aegean Sea for long time before this last events happened..
So I think already Greece was pushing their limits for long time against Turkey.
But somehow Erdogan s government rejected to see those realities what was happening in Aegean sea for the sake of the joining European Union dream ,even opposition political parties was warning Erdoğan about it.Remember Annan Plan which was refused by Greeks in Cyprus.But Erdogan was so enthusiastic about it when it was planned and offered by United Nations, he was even ready to give up from Cyprus So he is very easy person about give aways when it comes his political future.
I am all agree about erdogans adventurous personality and his delusions.
İf there is something bigger than governments in Turkey and Greece, İt is their Militaries. any government which is elected in Greece or Turkey always have some concern about Military reactions.So it is something about Their army peoples proud also.

BTW We should give Greece its share in this rising tension despite years of struggling with the economic crisis still Greece was spending the most part of budget on their army..

biko

Erdogan is trying to pull EU itself into the mix.
Pretty rich from a nation that illegally occupies not only Cyprus but also swaths of Syria.

Turkey's Erdogan accuses EU of using Greece as 'bait'

Efforts to 'descend on the riches of the Mediterranean' are an example of 'modern-day colonialism', says Turkish leader.

Turkish President Recep Tayyip accused European nations of using Greece as "bait" in the Mediterranean Sea confrontation while belittling Athens' military might on Tuesday.

Erdogan, who has threatened Greece with military action, described Turkey's activities in the eastern Mediterranean as the "pursuit of [its] rights and justice" and denounced what he said were Greek efforts to "imprison" Turkey to a small region surrounding its coast.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/09/turkey-extends-gas-exploration-eastern-mediterranean-200901061858394.html