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Covid bunker rules

  • 06-08-2020 11:53pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 617 ✭✭✭ Dtoffee


    allows clubs introduce preferred lies (within six inches) or deem bunkers GUR.



    If the choice is 'preferred lies', does the player have to mark the position of his ball before placing it with six inches.... I was told there was no need, but how do you identify the six inches if the player has picked up his ball without a marker?.


    Any Covid19 rules experts ?


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭ bren2001


    The ball is in a bunker and leaves a mark in the sand, pretty easy to see where the ball was.

    I pick where I'm placing it before I lift it anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 617 ✭✭✭ Dtoffee


    bren2001 wrote: »
    The ball is in a bunker and leaves a mark in the sand, pretty easy to see where the ball was.

    I pick where I'm placing it before I lift it anyway.


    So you don't have to mark your ball when placing it in a bunker, tks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,841 ✭✭✭ fred funk }{


    You have to mark the ball anytime you're taking relief.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭ bren2001


    You have to mark the ball anytime you're taking relief.

    Preferred lies in a bunker typically allow you to rake the bunker before placing it back down (pre-covid). I'm not sure how you can mark the ball and rake the spot.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,541 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo


    bren2001 wrote: »
    Preferred lies in a bunker typically allow you to rake the bunker before placing it back down (pre-covid). I'm not sure how you can mark the ball and rake the spot.

    You don't rake the bit you have marked?

    How would you know where your ball was without a marker if you were going to rake it?

    Also, the whole point of the covid rules is that no one is raking, since there are no rakes.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭ Golfgraffix


    The rule is set out under Modul Rule 3 which does state

    In proceeding under this Local Rule, the player must choose a spot to place the ball and use the procedures for replacing a ball under Rules 14.2b(2) and 14.2e.

    These rules are normal rules for identifying and replacing a ball, where you would normally mark the ball.

    The one question we got asked by members is can you clean it. And the answer is yes


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭ bren2001


    GreeBo wrote: »
    You don't rake the bit you have marked?

    How would you know where your ball was without a marker if you were going to rake it?

    Also, the whole point of the covid rules is that no one is raking, since there are no rakes.

    I look in the bunker for a spot close to the ball, have the rake in my hand, pick up the ball, rake the spot, and place it down. It's usually directly behind where the ball is/was. Not rocket science to keep it close to the original position. That's how I was advised by my club pro.

    I've a rake that attaches to my club. The local rule allows me to rake the entire bunker if I see fit. I dont see how I can mark the ball and rake the spot.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭ bren2001


    The rule is set out under Modul Rule 3 which does state

    In proceeding under this Local Rule, the player must choose a spot to place the ball and use the procedures for replacing a ball under Rules 14.2b(2) and 14.2e.

    These rules are normal rules for identifying and replacing a ball, where you would normally mark the ball.

    The one question we got asked by members is can you clean it. And the answer is yes

    Seems I was advised incorrectly. I'll mark in future so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,541 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo



    The one question we got asked by members is can you clean it. And the answer is yes
    We were specifically told no cleaning of the ball during inter-club last week...
    bren2001 wrote: »
    I look in the bunker for a spot close to the ball, have the rake in my hand, pick up the ball, rake the spot, and place it down. It's usually directly behind where the ball is/was. Not rocket science to keep it close to the original position. That's how I was advised by my club pro.

    I've a rake that attaches to my club. The local rule allows me to rake the entire bunker if I see fit. I dont see how I can mark the ball and rake the spot.

    Not rocket science but also not beyond the bounds of reality that something would distract you and you lose your spot, a sneeze for example.
    Mark the ball, rake the 6 inch semi circle around it and place the ball there.
    Its not brain surgery.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭ Golfgraffix


    bren2001 wrote: »
    I look in the bunker for a spot close to the ball, have the rake in my hand, pick up the ball, rake the spot, and place it down. It's usually directly behind where the ball is/was. Not rocket science to keep it close to the original position. That's how I was advised by my club pro.

    I've a rake that attaches to my club. The local rule allows me to rake the entire bunker if I see fit. I dont see how I can mark the ball and rake the spot.

    Your pro is wrong the GUI where very specific

    The relief area permitted is 6 inches from the reference point. Note – the area may not be smoothed before placing.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭ bren2001


    Your pro is wrong the GUI where very specific

    The relief area permitted is 6 inches from the reference point. Note – the area may not be smoothed before placing.

    My pro was very wrong by the sounds of it. I won't rake before I replace it so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭ Golfgraffix


    GreeBo wrote: »
    We were specifically told no cleaning of the ball during inter-club last week..

    Really? By a GUI official ?

    I had a very clear reply from the GUI 3 weeks ago that under the last updated 2019 rules there are only two instances where you can not clean a ball after moving it.

    1/ if you are identifying that it is your ball
    2/ if you are marking your ball off the green as it’s in the line of another player.

    All other instances you can clean. This was from one of the top convenors, so I didn’t check further.

    I’m not a huge fan of Mitchell and Web but I do love that sketch.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,541 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo


    Really? By a GUI official ?

    I had a very clear reply from the GUI 3 weeks ago that under the last updated 2019 rules there are only two instances where you can not clean a ball after moving it.

    1/ if you are identifying that it is your ball
    2/ if you are marking your ball off the green as it’s in the line of another player.

    All other instances you can clean. This was from one of the top convenors, so I didn’t check further.

    I’m not a huge fan of Mitchell and Web but I do love that sketch.

    It came from the manager, I too would have assumed you could clean it as in all but the 2 instances you mention above.


  • Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭ Whiplash85


    We have to learn to live with the virus. No use hiding under the bed or in a bunker. Children have to get back to school and this inturn will enable parents to get back to work.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,373 ✭✭✭ Wildly Boaring


    Whiplash85 wrote: »
    We have to learn to live with the virus. No use hiding under the bed or in a bunker. Children have to get back to school and this inturn will enable parents to get back to work.

    But do you mark to ball or not?


  • Registered Users Posts: 617 ✭✭✭ Dtoffee


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Mark the ball, rake the 6 inch semi circle around it and place the ball there.
    Its not brain surgery.


    I'm not really interested in the raking issue tbh, my query is "do you have to mark the ball before placing it in the bunker". I understood that anytime placing or preferred lies are in play, then you must mark your ball ...... you seem to agree, but its vague when reading all the replies on here.

    This is the RandA comment :

    If the Committee decides that, even with players making their best efforts to smooth the sand, the condition of the bunkers is likely to be so abnormal that it will be clearly unreasonable for players to play the ball as it lies, the Committee may use one of the following options:

    Change the status of the bunkers to be part of the general area and declare all of them to be ground under repair.
    Introduce preferred lies in bunkers, for example allowing a place in the bunker within one club-length not nearer to the hole than where the ball came to rest.

    But if the following provision is used, play in such circumstances is not in accordance with the Rules of Golf:

    Allowing a ball to be lifted, the bunker to be smoothed and the ball to be replaced.


    No reference to marking the ball, I just thought that it was a given under the rules .... but it appears not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,302 ✭✭✭ Miley Byrne


    Dtoffee wrote: »
    I'm not really interested in the raking issue tbh, my query is "do you have to mark the ball before placing it in the bunker". I understood that anytime placing or preferred lies are in play, then you must mark your ball ...... you seem to agree, but its vague when reading all the replies on here.

    If in doubt, mark it. Why would you not want to mark it anyway out of interest?


  • Registered Users Posts: 617 ✭✭✭ Dtoffee


    If in doubt, mark it. Why would you not want to mark it anyway out of interest?


    It was matchplay and an opponent picked up his ball and placed it in the bunker without marking it. This was questioned at the time and it was argued that there was no need for him to mark his ball .... hence no penalty.

    I have my doubts and not being an expert on the rules, I decided to ask on here and find out what the norm was out there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,541 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo


    Dtoffee wrote: »
    I'm not really interested in the raking issue tbh, my query is "do you have to mark the ball before placing it in the bunker". I understood that anytime placing or preferred lies are in play, then you must mark your ball ...... you seem to agree, but its vague when reading all the replies on here.

    This is the RandA comment :

    If the Committee decides that, even with players making their best efforts to smooth the sand, the condition of the bunkers is likely to be so abnormal that it will be clearly unreasonable for players to play the ball as it lies, the Committee may use one of the following options:

    Change the status of the bunkers to be part of the general area and declare all of them to be ground under repair.
    Introduce preferred lies in bunkers, for example allowing a place in the bunker within one club-length not nearer to the hole than where the ball came to rest.

    But if the following provision is used, play in such circumstances is not in accordance with the Rules of Golf:

    Allowing a ball to be lifted, the bunker to be smoothed and the ball to be replaced.


    No reference to marking the ball, I just thought that it was a given under the rules .... but it appears not.

    I think its pretty well covered under Rule 14.1
    14.1
    Marking, Lifting and Cleaning Ball
    a
    Spot of Ball to Be Lifted and Replaced Must Be Marked
    Before lifting your ball under a Rule requiring it to be replaced on its original spot, you must mark the spot, which means to:

    Place a ball-marker right behind or right next to your ball, or
    Hold a club on the ground right behind or right next to your ball.
    If you lift your ball without marking its spot, mark its spot in a wrong way or make a stroke with a ball-marker left in place, you get one penalty stroke.

    When you lift your ball to take relief under a Rule, you are not required to mark the spot.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,302 ✭✭✭ Miley Byrne


    GreeBo wrote: »
    I think its pretty well covered under Rule 14.1

    That refers to a scenario where you are replacing your ball on its original spot though does it?

    i would always mark regardless as it's good practice


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭ Golfgraffix


    That refers to a scenario where you are replacing your ball on its original spot though does it?

    i would always mark regardless as it's good practice

    It is specifically covered under Modul Rule 3 which specifically mentioned adhering to rule 14 in relation to the mechanics of the placing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 617 ✭✭✭ Dtoffee


    I asked the experts ..............

    Thank you for your email regarding a query on the Rules of Golf.



    In answer to your question, there is no requirement to first mark the position of the ball when the preferred lies Local Rule has been adopted by the Committee (MLR E-3). This would also apply while playing golf during Covid-19.



    One of the changes to the Rules when introduced at the beginning of 2019 was the removal of some unnecessary procedural penalties, which is the case with Model Local Rule E-3. The position of the original ball is taken as the reference point and the player can place the original ball or another ball in the specified relief area, six inches in the situation you have described, no nearer the hole.



    I hope this information is of some assistance.



    Kind regards,

    Conor



    Conor Finlay​

    Rules Manager

    T: +44 (0) 1334 460000

    RandA.org


    Problem solved and lesson learned.


  • Registered Users Posts: 274 ✭✭ Neewollah


    Played in an inter club match the other evening and halfway through the round one of the opposition took issue with us cleaning our ball before placing in bunkers. Even though I knew he was wrong I didn't cause an argument as we were well up at that stage. Some peoples knowledge of basic rules is quite poor. I was in one more bunker I think and I didn't clean the ball to keep him happy.


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