Luas extension to Finglas

dowlingm

Day off today so sat with my coffee and iPad looking between Google Maps and the Emerging Preferred Route for the Finglas LUAS. Let’s start by assuming that this isn’t an exercise in political placating (understandable given the history including Luas to Lucan and Rathfarnham) and will actually be funded.

https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/2020/07/luas-finglas-brochure.pdf

Started off at Broombridge and was more or less nodding along - yes it’s at grade but it’s mostly off street, nice 3D render over the Tolka, not sure how Park users are gonna love trams at full speed - passed St Helenas, yes a bit distanced from residences but fine, then approached Finglas Village.

Okay there’s the text description... this seems very awkward. The stop is gonna be west of the fire station in the council depot... wait I will see what the render says about how they get it there - and the twists and turns to get it there, squeezing past bungalows on Mellowes Crescent (unless CPOed) are omitted from the render. Because that’s the hard part!

Onwards to the north end of Mellowes Park and some kind of signalized kludge is proposed to get it across the feeder to the N2 and on past a second roundabout to Charlestown. And they want people to Park and Ride (coming from where, by the way?) to wait at a bunch of traffic lights, for the tram to slowly bend this way and that, and be attracted to/grateful for it!

This seems a nonsense, design to a price.

An alignment which proceeds along the west of Patrickswell Place as per the current design, then along the east of Cardiff Castle Road, into a portal, then under the cop shop (maybe just the car park entrance lane though), possibly a chunk of the Ravens Court forecourt, passing under Mellowes Road and the crèche on the opposite side, would be expensive but it would permanently eliminate many at grade conflicts. There is no getting away from impacts on the aforementioned facilities and maybe the nearby playground, but depending on placement of the portals and station entrances there would be opportunities to rebuild above the stop and recover some land value.

The line could then run up the west end of Mellowes Park to a more conveniently placed stop near Barry Avenue, then curve under the roundabout to emerge on the edge of the Lidl-Atlas-Aldi car parks, nicely placed on the correct side of St Margaret’s Road for the last leg to Charlestown P&R.

Del.Monte

It would be nice to think that the Government/Luas operators would get their security properly sorted out on the existing (northside) lines before adding more potential troublemakers. Too much to hope for I suppose.

Pkiernan

Del.Monte wrote: »

It would be nice to think that the Government/Luas operators would get their security properly sorted out on the existing (northside) lines before adding more potential troublemakers. Too much to hope for I suppose.

Careful. That's a bit too honest for Boards.

dowlingm

Del.Monte wrote: »

It would be nice to think that the Government/Luas operators would get their security properly sorted out on the existing (northside) lines before adding more potential troublemakers. Too much to hope for I suppose.

I suppose having a Garda station immediately next door/above a stop might give some community spokespeople (not necessarily of that community) a fit of the vapours.

I have long advocated that Gardai in uniform and military members on their way to/from duty be given free travel - not for direct enforcement, just for presence (and especially for the military folks because their pay is crap anyway). Sometimes all that might be needed is “s/he mightn’t stop me but s/he would give a statement or make a call without my stare dissuading them”

tabbey

Del.Monte wrote: »

It would be nice to think that the Government/Luas operators would get their security properly sorted out on the existing (northside) lines before adding more potential troublemakers. Too much to hope for I suppose.

The troublemakers in South finglas are semi retired at this stage and are not reproducing at the same rate as in the 1970s.
But you make a valid point.

GT89

Del.Monte wrote: »

It would be nice to think that the Government/Luas operators would get their security properly sorted out on the existing (northside) lines before adding more potential troublemakers. Too much to hope for I suppose.

Ah here that's an old beaten argument when it comes to transport in Dublin like that Luas is going to be hotbed for trouble before it was even built, the Dublin Bikes would end up in the Liffey, the RTPI poles at bus stops would be vandalised and the USB ports on buses would be soon filed with gum. None of this has actually happened.

DoctorPan

And LUAS themselves admit that it's the Green Line by Ballyogan that gives them the worse amounts of troublemakers but the Red Line is perceived to be the worse of the two by the general public.

Pete_Cavan

Apart from the N2, the roads crossed are relatively minor and Luas priority over traffic would be sufficient. Going under the roundabout at St Margaret’s Road would be extremely difficult, much easier to go over it as both the park and St Margaret’s Road are higher than the roundabout so the Luas wouldn't have to climb too much to give sufficient clearance below the bridge. It would cause much less disruption and bridge supports can be placed in the roundabout, reducing spans. Going along the other side of St Margaret’s Road would make a lot of sense, shift the road to the east a little.

GT89

GT89 wrote: »

Ah here that's an old beaten argument when it comes to transport in Dublin like that Luas is going to be hotbed for trouble before it was even built, the Dublin Bikes would end up in the Liffey, the RTPI poles at bus stops would be vandalised and the USB ports on buses would be soon filed with gum. None of this has actually happened.

Have you ever gotten the luas to Ballyogan Wood?

Del.Monte

And there's never been any trouble on the Red Line. :rolleyes:

River Suir

Even so, to take 10 years to build the line is absolutely ridiculous.

Losty Dublin

GT89 wrote: »

Ah here that's an old beaten argument when it comes to transport in Dublin like that Luas is going to be hotbed for trouble before it was even built....and the USB ports on buses would be soon filed with gum. None of this has actually happened.

No it didn't. They actually filled them with chewed up paper.

Irish Steve

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Apart from the N2, the roads crossed are relatively minor and Luas priority over traffic would be sufficient. Going under the roundabout at St Margaret’s Road would be extremely difficult, much easier to go over it as both the park and St Margaret’s Road are higher than the roundabout so the Luas wouldn't have to climb too much to give sufficient clearance below the bridge. It would cause much less disruption and bridge supports can be placed in the roundabout, reducing spans. Going along the other side of St Margaret’s Road would make a lot of sense, shift the road to the east a little.

Yet again, a lack of real clarity and thinking, the N2 is problematic enough at peak periods as it is without adding LUAS crossings into that mix.

It would have made a lot more sense to take the N2 under the existing roundabout back when the Finglas Bypass was built, and not ever built the junction that is just south of the M50, if that had been done, the N2 would almost flow in a sensible manner.

It would also have made a lot of sense to take the LUAS on from Charlestown to IKEA, or even out to Harristown bus depot (for now) serving the estates between those locations, and in an ideal world, there would have been a park and ride outside of the M50 to provide more spaces for people coming in from the M2.

strandroad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Have you ever gotten the luas to Ballyogan Wood?

I have, for many years at different hours. The absolute worst I've ever seen was a pile of teenagers sitting in each others laps.
I genuinely have no idea how Ballyogan can be a blackspot. There is absolutely nothing of the aggressive addict vibe and the general despondency you get on the red line in town. They are probably counting fare dodging teenagers shuttling between Ballyogan and Leopardstown Valley shops as major incidents.

DoctorPan

strandroad wrote: »

I have, for many years at different hours. The absolute worst I've ever seen was a pile of teenagers sitting in each others laps.
I genuinely have no idea how Ballyogan can be a blackspot. There is absolutely nothing of the aggressive addict vibe and the general despondency you get on the red line in town. They are probably counting fare dodging teenagers shuttling between Ballyogan and Leopardstown Valley shops as major incidents.

No, its smashing up of stations, stops and haressment of passengers that they count as major incidents.

strandroad

DoctorPan wrote: »

No, its smashing up of stations, stops and haressment of passengers that they count as major incidents.

Was that more recent? Honestly I've never seen anything smashed up, not even broken glass. Never witnessed harassment either, also not sure how any could possibly beat the Four Courts or Jarvis St levels.
Not saying Ballyogan is perfect if what you describe happens but I can't see how it can be even in the same league as the above not to mention beat them, unless things changed massively in about a year?

GT89

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Have you ever gotten the luas to Ballyogan Wood?

Yes and apart from gangs of teenagers loitering I haven't seen any major problems

DoctorPan

strandroad wrote: »

Was that more recent? Honestly I've never seen anything smashed up, not even broken glass. Never witnessed harassment either, also not sure how any could possibly beat the Four Courts or Jarvis St levels.
Not saying Ballyogan is perfect if what you describe happens but I can't see how it can be even in the same league as the above not to mention beat them, unless things changed massively in about a year?

I'm only going by what Transdev said in a depot tour last year with Engineers Ireland that Ballyogan was their stop with the most anti social behaviour and said stops and ticket machines would be smashed up, pasengers and staff harassed and that the Red Line has a reputation for anti social behaviour, it was the Green Line that gave the most hassle.

tabbey

DoctorPan wrote: »

I'm only going by what Transdev said in a depot tour last year with Engineers Ireland that Ballyogan was their stop with the most anti social behaviour and said stops and ticket machines would be smashed up, pasengers and staff harassed and that the Red Line has a reputation for anti social behaviour, it was the Green Line that gave the most hassle.

You must have misunderstood, or been told porkies.
There is absolutely no contest between red and green lines. Busaras to fatima, especially abbey to Heuston, is far worse than anything on the green line.
Try it yourself, enjoy the experience.

markpb

tabbey wrote: »

You must have misunderstood, or been told porkies.
There is absolutely no contest between red and green lines. Busaras to fatima, especially abbey to Heuston, is far worse than anything on the green line.
Try it yourself, enjoy the experience.

There was a news article last year that cited Trasdev and said exactly the same thing. They didn't name exactly where but said one or two stops on the south end of green line were the most problematic of the system. I'll dig it out later.

Amirani

tabbey wrote: »

You must have misunderstood, or been told porkies.
There is absolutely no contest between red and green lines. Busaras to fatima, especially abbey to Heuston, is far worse than anything on the green line.
Try it yourself, enjoy the experience.

Your anecdote is trumped by Transdev's data in this case. Just because you've experienced worse on Red line than Green doesn't mean that that reflects everyone's experience.

Transdev don't have any reason to lie about this.

GT89

I use the Green line now and again and have not noticed any serious trouble around Ballyogan. I wonder could the anti social behaviour there relate to off tram things like kids messing on the tracks or things like stone throwing which would be considered quite serious for the obivous safety risks these acts cause.

The red line travels through mostly built up areas whereas the area around Ballyogan is quite isolated so more space for the scrotes to take cover. I think AlekSmart pointed out a while back that Ballyogan is the only area in Ireland where AGS have pulled out of.

Pete_Cavan

Isn't there another thread on anti-social behaviour on public transport that this discussion should take place in?

Pete_Cavan

Isn't there another thread on anti-social behaviour on public transport that this discussion should take place in?

DoctorPan

tabbey wrote: »

You must have misunderstood, or been told porkies.
There is absolutely no contest between red and green lines. Busaras to fatima, especially abbey to Heuston, is far worse than anything on the green line.
Try it yourself, enjoy the experience.

I've experienced both sides of the Red and Green line and know what each are like.

Why would Transdev lie to fellow colleagues in the transport sector?

Plus there's this news article from last year that mentions that anti social behaviour in the Gallops was increasing

https://www.thejournal.ie/shane-ross-luas-complaint-over-anti-social-behaviour-4932947-Dec2019/

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/children-aged-nine-among-most-troublesome-luas-passengers-1.3727541

While this one from 2018 quotes Transdev as saying passengers on the red line cause little if any trouble.

petronius

The Finglas extension should be relatively easy to do, bridging and sharing road space the issues as normal but surely not too difficult. extending from charlestown to IKEA could be considered, not sure how many flatpacks you could fit on a luas;) could bridging the M50 and linking to the airport be a "short term" solution for the perpetually postponed MetroNorth/MetroLink

loyatemu

petronius wrote: »

could bridging the M50 and linking to the airport be a "short term" solution for the perpetually postponed MetroNorth/MetroLink

as things stand, Metrolink is due to be open well before the Fingluas.