Threats to Western Democracy

s1ippy

I know partisan politics means we don't always see eye to eye here in the West, but at least there is robust debate, and by and large in most places you can believe whatever nonsense you want to in relative peace and comfort. Bipartisanism is a clever tool to ensure that people feel like they have a cause to fight in favour of, where all of their views are neatly aligned in black and white, and this strategy manages to keep the masses appeased for the most part, especially West of the Prime Meridian (because Europe seems to currently be under a very gradual, mild invasion by the Middle East which it's rude to talk about). I think this makes it a grand place to live most of the time and sometimes a bit difficult but still manageable.

As this year wears on, with my adrenal gland continuously pumping, I can't help but be more attuned to what's going on around the world at the moment. China’s attempts to mobilise the UN Security Council repeatedly against other countries this year, their blatant and flagrant violations of sanctions placed on them, invading Hong Kong and possibly (deliberately or through negligence) sending out a bio-weapon with which they cripple world economies, leaving all others at a huge financial disadvantage to them.

I'm a pacifist but tbh at this stage, even I wouldn't mind them being taught a lesson... given what their government has done this year, have been doing in the past and will no doubt continue to do until they're stopped or take over the planet. Their food supplies are perpetually low because they have to feed so many people (mildly advanced slaves is all most of them seem to be to their government). I have to tell myself every day that these thoughts are fundamentally racist, and that's the kind of hatred which created the divisions in the first place. But it's still important that we acknowledge the situation and our own reactions to it because politics are a tribal pursuit at their foundations and they evoke an emotional response by their very nature.

The time advantage China have had in the population department, being such an old empire, has been both their strength and their weakness. I doubt Ji Xinping would give it a second thought if Ireland/Europe was destroyed; they need the entirety of the world's resources at this stage if they're to continue, as they've raped their own territories and waters and have scarcely any natural resources. It's hard for the feeling of animosity they have for us not to be mutual, especially when they massacre entire races of people and destroy the oceans and attempt to wipe out the Japanese. I feel lousy for anyone situated near them. You actually don't even need to make sh!t up about them because what they go around doing is completely reprehensible.

And now, briefly on to Russia - having run a smear campaign online to vilify Arlene Foster last year (it obviously worked because everyone knows she's a c) , now they might turn their sights to our border poll and stir up tension and violence. This really bothers me, not content to merely inflame the racist bold boys across the pond (warning, link contains either real life satire or well written fiction) and trigger a divide in Europe, not content to merely bring down the biggest superpower in the world with a rigged election and probably instate a dictatorship (it really doesn't look like they can force him out of he doesn't leave in November), they're going to turn our weakness against us - Religion. I thought Ireland were too small to matter but that's very naive. We've become complacent, we need to be more vigilant if we want to protect our valuable resources, especially facing into this uncertain time where the only guarantees are economic depression, famine, poverty, climate change chaos and war.

Now I have no doubt this post will be at best moved or at worst deleted because I seldom manage to follow all the rules in the politics forum. I am an excitable writer and that works against me, so I'll move this somewhere if needs be. But I am insistent that it would be healthy and sensible to have a big discussion about what the hell the West can do to try and keep these forces of violence and threats to our existence at bay for another few decades.

Edgware

We needn't get too woried yet about China/Russia as threats to Western Democracy.
Its our E.U. brothers in Poland, Hungary, Austria with their contempt for Europes ideals that is a greater danger. Thry are all pro E.U. when it comes to getting money but then its back to extremism, anti immigration, breaching human rights etc when they have got it.
And we still have gob****es like McAlleese who is in favour of Turkey joining the E.U.

s1ippy

I absolutely agree with you about it being incredibly important to field extremism and also ensuring countries are able to contribute and pull their weights economically. But it seems to me to be a case of there being strength in numbers. If the continent of Eurasia is clearly defined, Europe would be as well off to keep diplomatic relations favourable between the countries within its jurisdictions, even if they have different societal views, just to make sure none of them are easily compromised.

Just take a look at what happened to North Korea (they invaded the waters and depleted their fish stocks) and India (they refused to use Chinese apps which would track their data and China have slapped trade sanctions on them) when they tried to defy China.

Keeping the countries you mentioned on the side of Europe is pretty crucial as a defence against Russia. You can see how the the exclusionary system Russia has appeals to people who hate immigrants and refugees because their countries are thronged with them regularly. Unfortunately those systems often have antiquated views on issues that we've become more progressive about, like women's rights, sexuality and racism. If the quality of life improves for significant numbers of them through membership of the EU, next generation a majority of them be laughing at how backwards their parents were. That tends to be the pattern in a lot of parts of society who go through long periods of depression (conservative and regressive views are more prevalent, jealousy and blame of others for hardship) and prosperity (views with more liberal leanings emerge, "it's ok for people who are different to me to succeed because I'm doing well").

What would be the most ideal is if the whole world just stopped trying to sabotage everyone else and shared resources, space and looked after the environment but it would take some sort of benevolent dictator calling the shots and a worldwide amnesty of violence or subterfuge. With all the natural disasters occurring and the even worse ones imminent, I can't help but feel like hands will be forced in a lot of cases during the coming decade.

Sean.3516

We (Western Democracies/Republics) definitely need to declare a Cold War on China at this point

It's a disgrace that they are treated like anything approximating a civilised, respectable country. They truly are an evil regime on par with the Soviet Union, brutalising their own people (literally sending Uighur muslims to concentration camps and jailing people who criticised the regime during the early days of COVID when they lied profusely about the virus in ways that endangered the rest of the world.)

They deal dishonestly with the rest of the world on trade issues (I'm not talking about trade deficits which I don't care about but currency devaluation and IP theft.) They just took full control of Hong Kong, essentially tearing up the treaty they had with Britain ensuring their autonomy. They're building artificial islands in the South China Sea trying to build up a military presence that could threaten Taiwan.

Not to mention the fact they're essentially trying to buy Africa right now by pumping money into corrupt countries with lots of natural resources.

Worst ever foreign policy decision made by a US president was when Nixon opened up China to the wider world in 72.

Belfast

I am not worried about China, Russia.
America worries me more.
Bad economics,lazy media and powerful lobby groups in Washington DC, I think are a much greater threat to western democracy.
Not to mention abuse of civil rights in America.
Federal Officers Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab People In Portland, DHS Confirms
https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892277592/federal-officers-use-unmarked-vehicles-to-grab-protesters-in-portland

Police abused civil forfeiture laws for so long that the Supreme Court stepped in. But one ruling won't end it.
Arbitrary state actions are exactly what the courts should be checking, and the Timbs decision provides a way to challenge many such abuses.
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/police-abused-civil-forfeiture-laws-so-long-supreme-court-stepped-ncna974086
Democrats are doing voter registration drives but do not want voters to show ids.
Republicans seen to be using every trick in the book to suppress the number of voter who might vote against them.
In Ireland our elector register is years out of date with many dead people on it and voters registered in many places who should have been removed when they moved house.
In America there is the ever expanding Police and justice system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison%E2%80%93industrial_complex

M256

What makes one think there is democracy in the west? Countries like Russia or China should be the least of our worries anyway.

ancapailldorcha

M256 wrote: »

What makes one think there is democracy in the west? Countries like Russia or China should be the least of our worries anyway.

Mod: Please post in a more constructive manner than this. Blithely asserting that there is no democracy in the West is below the standard of this forum.

Harry Palmr

Threats?

Big new media (really is time for an anti-trust case or three)
Big declining scared carbon based industries (seeking to protect their previous hegemony),
Nuthouse ideological think tanks which have got their claws into governments (or at least their leaders)
China because it really is determined to be the No 1 economy and ultimately political power in the world
Russia cos they just can't stop old habits and have reverted to authoritarianism.

nigeldaniel

Russia and China have always been up to no good where the west is concerned, and always will be. The bigger threat, in my opinion, comes from increasingly premalignant voters who insistently vote for crazy politicians with the uttermost of belief and insistence.
Crazy toons coming to power wreck more havoc than and Russian fake news machines or Chinese agent fanatical.

sparksfly

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

You are more than welcome to relocate to either one of those and renounce/give up your passport. Tell us how you get on (assuming you can even reach boards.ie from behind their firewalls)

Having been to Russia it is an epic ****hole for most people who are trapped there.

I don't support the Israel's policy on Palestine but that doesn't mean I should move to Palestine. That argument is nonsensical.
I have family living in Russia, working for an Irish company providing technical contracting for both state and private industry. I'm not sure when you were there but there is absolutely zero restriction on internet access, foreign TV, foreign press.
Its not Utopia but most people we meet are as contented there as we are here and are certainly not trapped.
While Russia is no stranger to propaganda, your post reads more like the anti Russian propaganda that proliferates our media.

The Unbearables

Western media has spent the last 4 years suffering from orange man bad syndrome when in fact the real bad man is red.

China need to be taken down a notch or two for all our sakes.