Buying a house with no planing for upstairs

Cork2015!

Hi Boardsies, I recently viewed a house for sale which is perfect for us. It is being advertised as a bungalow, but there is a stairs and upstairs is converted and finished (2 extra bedrooms with 2 en suites up there). There are 3 bedrooms downstairs.
EA telling me we just buy it as a 3 bed with "storage space" upstairs, and that we can get planning retainment in the future if we want but that there will be issues as it has been built now for 19 years, the dormer windows are at the back of the property etc. He said engineer etc will all have to agree that its being sold as 3 bed, and that once all parties are fully aware of the situation then we should have no problems.

Am I mad for considering this? We probably wont use the upstairs bedrooms for now anyway unless the kids what to move up there when they are older. One would be a rarely used guest room and the other probably really would be a storage room.

Is this a non runner though?

drunkmonkey

I'd be more concerned if was converted properly you'd want to get an engineer to check it over.
On your question, are you paying 3 bed price or 5 bed price, if it's 3.5 bed price it's a runner. You can always apply for retention after a few years or don't bother if you don't intend to sell it.
The current owners can always go for retention but it will delay the sale and increase the price.
Ask the engineer do they think there will be much problem if you want to make it officialy a 5 bed down the road.

lunamoon

Chances are your own solicitor (if they are by the book) won’t let you buy it without the current owner applying for retention.

You could run into all sorts of issues with insurance etc. If it was me I would insist on current owners getting planning or walking.

harr

Cork2015! wrote: »

Hi Boardsies, I recently viewed a house for sale which is perfect for us. It is being advertised as a bungalow, but there is a stairs and upstairs is converted and finished (2 extra bedrooms with 2 en suites up there). There are 3 bedrooms downstairs.
EA telling me we just buy it as a 3 bed with "storage space" upstairs, and that we can get planning retainment in the future if we want but that there will be issues as it has been built now for 19 years, the dormer windows are at the back of the property etc. He said engineer etc will all have to agree that its being sold as 3 bed, and that once all parties are fully aware of the situation then we should have no problems.

Am I mad for considering this? We probably wont use the upstairs bedrooms for now anyway unless the kids what to move up there when they are older. One would be a rarely used guest room and the other probably really would be a storage room.

Is this a non runner though?

I know a number of people who purchased houses like this , 3 bed rooms on deeds when in fact they were 4 or 5 bedroom. I wouldn’t be paying full whack for a 6 bed house because technically it’s not and I know someone who had difficulty getting the correct planning permit as he needed to change doors , windows some of the lay out didn’t meet fire regulations . So I would get checked to make sure but in all fairness it’s probably doesn’t meet the correct planning or they would have got that sorted before selling .. get an engineer to give it the once over and factor the cost into the purchase price if you do intend to seek planning for the up stairs.

Cork2015!

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'd be more concerned if was converted properly you'd want to get an engineer to check it over.
On your question, are you paying 3 bed price or 5 bed price, if it's 3.5 bed price it's a runner. You can always apply for retention after a few years or don't bother if you don't intend to sell it.
The current owners can always go for retention but it will delay the sale and increase the price.
Ask the engineer do they think there will be much problem if you want to make it officialy a 5 bed down the road.

It is being sold at 3 bedroom price to be fair. It is perfect house for us but I'm scared that we will get stung somehow down the line over the planing issue

drunkmonkey

Planning is very strict these days, we converted upstairs, oodles of room but we couldn't meet head height regulations in one part so didn't bother going for planning as it was pointless. It's a proper job though we ran fireproof steel beams all around the house to hold the weight. We've no intention of selling though.

There's a thing op, have a look at the roof from the outside and look for any sag, the weight could be bowing the roof.

FishOnABike

The EA is there to earn their commission nothing else. A quick sale gets them their commission and let's them put their time into selling other properties.

How long has the house been on the market? Does the price reflect that if a three or five bedroomed house / the area of the downstairs or upstairs and downstairs ? Why hasn't the vendor applied for retention before putting it on the market? Is the extension compliant with building, fire and planning regulations?

Is it a cash sale or do you need a mortgage? Banks may have a problem approving finance on a property without proper planning permission.

I would take the advice of your own engineer and solicitor before that of the estate agent trying to sell the property?

If you do decide to go ahead the potential issues should be reflected in the price. Best of luck.

drunkmonkey

Cork2015! wrote: »

It is being sold at 3 bedroom price to be fair. It is perfect house for us but I'm scared that we will get stung somehow down the line over the planing issue

It's retention you'll be looking for I think. If it's a good conversion and it's coming at 3 bed price i'd be finding a way to buy it. If you don't intend to sell it, won't make much odds, just accept it as there saying it's storage space.

Cork2015!

Thanks for the advice everyone. We are hoping that it will be our forever home and have no intentions of ever selling it.
Current owners bought the house about 2 years ago as a second home, and renovated etc. but are now selling (I believe because of financial difficulties).

Does anyone know what the worst case scenario could be? Like could it be as bad as having the knock down the house or something if we don't go for planning and get found out?

Staplor

Virtually everyone who gets an attic converted does it for "storage space". Mostly speaking, if an attic is to be a "habitable space" you're talking major bucks.

Attic conversions usually add a premium to a house, is this house worth the money, and do you love it? If so, get an engineer to survey and buy it. Does this "storage space" in the 3 bed house really need the planning permission? I think would think not.

drunkmonkey

Worst case, retention is refused and you've to use it as storage space.
It's the quality of the conversion is the biggest issue, is it supported properly and vented properly.
2yrs is a short time to own it, did you check property price register, they making much profit? They must have bought it without planning as well. I'd be cautious. Can you see vents in the roof tiles etc.

JeffKenna

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It's retention you'll be looking for I think. If it's a good conversion and it's coming at 3 bed price i'd be finding a way to buy it. If you don't intend to sell it, won't make much odds, just accept it as there saying it's storage space.

If it's been sold as a three bed I'd question why the current owner is not getting retention themselves and selling as a five bed?

alias no.9

Attic conversions are exempted development for the most part, compliance with building regulations is what you will need to establish.

Ray Palmer

The issue is very unlikely to just be a case of getting planing permission. The chances are it isn't and can't follow building regulations with the layout it has.

There are other issues with that. If you have a child sleeping there and there is an accident you may be charged with neglect or manslaughter. You will be fully aware that these rooms aren't habitable while living there due to the purchase.

Slim chance but a guest there has a accident your insurance won't cover it.

eamon11

hi, can I ask OP what you did in the end.

endofrainbow

Just jumping in here but usually would it not be the seller that applies for retention and if not why ?

Dolbhad

If the seller isn’t getting retention I would guess it’s because they won’t get it. With retention an engineer needs to sign off and say it complies with planning and building regulations on top of council signing off on the planning. Which most of the time it doesn’t comply with building regulations due to height space etc.

So if you buy “as it” it will need to be highlighted to your bank and they have to decide if they are happy to lend with defects in planning.

Secondly the bank’s valuer has to sign off its being sold for a 3 bed.
If you get sign off and happy to go ahead you just need to keep in mind you can try get retention in the future and see. But if the works done are not up to building regulations standard, it can be a costly issue to fix.

However my main concern is you do apply for planning for the house in regards to something else, the council will not look kindly on works already carried out that’s not signed off on.

If you really like it go for it and get an engineer out ASAP to see what needs to be done but keep an eye out in case something else comes up.

Mrs OBumble

Ray Palmer wrote: »

If you have a child sleeping there and there is an accident you may be charged with neglect or manslaughter.

If you have a person sleeping there and they die in a fire, then you will be guilty of manslaughter, whether or not you are charged.

Bio Mech

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If you have a person sleeping there and they die in a fire, then you will be guilty of manslaughter, whether or not you are charged.

Lucky you are able to make those decisions. Who needs the courts eh.