Closing a failed business in 1st year - too soon?

CBear1993

Hi all, really liking this sub forum having only found it recently.

Scroll to the bottom to get to the crux of the below if you want a summary!

Just before xmas holidays I decided I was going to give it a go on my own with my dad in the construction industry as our own firm. I was doing long hours for a main contractor.

So my dad (in his 50s) had been at construction successfully with his business since mid 90s, although in the last 4 years he has winded down to doing no jobs and built a small plot of houses, owns a few properties etc. So he's been semi retired you could say, spends a lot of time farming.

We decided the time was right (or so we thought) with my 6-7 years industry experience, and his previous success to give it a go on our own. Father - son business.
I have to say, from 6 January this year I have poured my heart and soul into it. And we have not gotten a single job of any significance.

I know people will say - "oh the coronavirus, you couldn't have picked a worse year to start a new business, especially in construction" etc.
But the reality is - He has invested €60K into setting up a small portable office, a small yard for machinery and then the rent on top of that.
On top of this -paying a fair weekly wage for me since the start of the year, I took a cut coming from my previous job.

I have reached out to every possible avenue I can, exhausted marketing on LinkedIn, have contacted most construction companies in the greater dublin region to get on their tender list. I've emailed the estimating departments, have picked up the phone to contacts and colleagues I had in previous companies, and spent hours on LinkedIn networking and getting our name out there. I created a website myself and had it at the top of google listings for construction in dublin area for a few months there.

I was just counting yesterday, since January I have priced and tendered myself 50no. jobs. We got called to the negotiating table by the contractor on maybe 2 jobs, but that was it. Even at that, big firms were beating us by €25K on a €300K job.
My dad's mantra is - we just need the first contract to get us off the ground no matter how small or big, then we're flying!

I know for a fact that our pricing has been competitive and we have not been way off, because I am a qualified QS and we have also spent a fair whack on employing an estimator now and again who is an expert on current market rates, to do sanity checks.
We also got feedback from a few directors in companies, they ran through a breakdown of where our price was in relation to competitors, in some cases we were more competitive, but they opted to go with their usual guys they use.

In hindsight, it really is all about who you know, we are a new firm, no one wants to take the gamble especially in this current climate. My biggest regret is that I should have left it another few years til I was higher up the food chain in construction, and would have been friends with people in high positions. THat's how it operates in ireland a lot, brown envelopes and all that craic.

We have tried winning the smallest jobs, house extensions at €20K right upto €2-3m packages.
My Dad is a great trier, and he knows I have put in a massive effort. Truthfully - he hasn't put in much effort at all if I was brutally honest about it, I've ran everything, accounts, payroll (we did a small few jobs and got in local lads), marketing, pricing, client engagement, site visits for potential jobs etc.
But I didn't care, he invested all the money. I'd say he has been in the office less than 20 days since the start of the year. I keep him updated on the phone, but he is not "an office" type or proficient on laptops or technology etc.
Again, he is the one who pumped in the money so I don't think he was obliged to.

He is now turning his attention to the UK - as he worked over there for 5 years after the 2008 downturn here and he did very very well out of it, it made him.

I am settled in Ireland with my partner, and I really don't want to go and start all over again in England, he says we could do flights over and back, maybe just there 3 days a week. But that's not how it works, I'd have to move over there to Midlands/London as I'm the type of person just has to be setup right to do it.





TL;DR:
Father has invested all the money into the firm, guts of €60K. Is it out of line of me to tell him we should call it a day? And I am going to seek employment again elsewhere? Father wants to go to England to give UK market a go.
Not sure if that's extremely disrespectful or throws all the money and belief he put in back in his face.

We are now at the stage where we are 8 months in (you could say we lost 2 months with CV), Autumn is approaching and I feel there is a downturn in construction now that is going to last. Housebuilding will take precedence, and I have seen already that some firms have went bust and are doing work "for nothing" as I would called, on little or no profit margin. We've been undercut on a lot of tenders by margins that you would honestly be better sitting at home than doing the job.

It is a very awkward position for me - I am not 30 yet and my career was progressing well enough. We have had the conversation of what's going on, there isn't many jobs coming in to price. I still get job offers in the background of good salaries in Dublin but I haven't even replied as I have loyalty to my dad, he helped me out with my first property on top of the mortgage and has been there for me my whole life in tough times.


I am basically doing next to nothing these days (in saying that I'm trying hard to work up new contacts and networking) but I am feeling very guilty now about the wage coming out of the account. He doesn't care he said he wants to keep it going to December and then we'll take a look at things.

I don't want to damage our relationship as it's a great one, we're very close.

LawBoy2018

CBear1993 wrote: »

Hi all, really liking this sub forum having only found it recently.

Scroll to the bottom to get to the crux of the below if you want a summary!

Just before xmas holidays I decided I was going to give it a go on my own with my dad in the construction industry as our own firm. I was doing long hours for a main contractor.

So my dad (in his 50s) had been at construction successfully with his business since mid 90s, although in the last 4 years he has winded down to doing no jobs and built a small plot of houses, owns a few properties etc. So he's been semi retired you could say, spends a lot of time farming.

We decided the time was right (or so we thought) with my 6-7 years industry experience, and his previous success to give it a go on our own. Father - son business.
I have to say, from 6 January this year I have poured my heart and soul into it. And we have not gotten a single job of any significance.

I know people will say - "oh the coronavirus, you couldn't have picked a worse year to start a new business, especially in construction" etc.
But the reality is - He has invested €60K into setting up a small portable office, a small yard for machinery and then the rent on top of that.
On top of this -paying a fair weekly wage for me since the start of the year, I took a cut coming from my previous job.

I have reached out to every possible avenue I can, exhausted marketing on LinkedIn, have contacted most construction companies in the greater dublin region to get on their tender list. I've emailed the estimating departments, have picked up the phone to contacts and colleagues I had in previous companies, and spent hours on LinkedIn networking and getting our name out there. I created a website myself and had it at the top of google listings for construction in dublin area for a few months there.

I was just counting yesterday, since January I have priced and tendered myself 50no. jobs. We got called to the negotiating table by the contractor on maybe 2 jobs, but that was it. Even at that, big firms were beating us by €25K on a €300K job.
My dad's mantra is - we just need the first contract to get us off the ground no matter how small or big, then we're flying!

I know for a fact that our pricing has been competitive and we have not been way off, because I am a qualified QS and we have also spent a fair whack on employing an estimator now and again who is an expert on current market rates, to do sanity checks.
We also got feedback from a few directors in companies, they ran through a breakdown of where our price was in relation to competitors, in some cases we were more competitive, but they opted to go with their usual guys they use.

In hindsight, it really is all about who you know, we are a new firm, no one wants to take the gamble especially in this current climate. My biggest regret is that I should have left it another few years til I was higher up the food chain in construction, and would have been friends with people in high positions. THat's how it operates in ireland a lot, brown envelopes and all that craic.

We have tried winning the smallest jobs, house extensions at €20K right upto €2-3m packages.
My Dad is a great trier, and he knows I have put in a massive effort. Truthfully - he hasn't put in much effort at all if I was brutally honest about it, I've ran everything, accounts, payroll (we did a small few jobs and got in local lads), marketing, pricing, client engagement, site visits for potential jobs etc.
But I didn't care, he invested all the money. I'd say he has been in the office less than 20 days since the start of the year. I keep him updated on the phone, but he is not "an office" type or proficient on laptops or technology etc.
Again, he is the one who pumped in the money so I don't think he was obliged to.

He is now turning his attention to the UK - as he worked over there for 5 years after the 2008 downturn here and he did very very well out of it, it made him.

I am settled in Ireland with my partner, and I really don't want to go and start all over again in England, he says we could do flights over and back, maybe just there 3 days a week. But that's not how it works, I'd have to move over there to Midlands/London as I'm the type of person just has to be setup right to do it.





TL;DR:
Father has invested all the money into the firm, guts of €60K. Is it out of line of me to tell him we should call it a day? And I am going to seek employment again elsewhere? Father wants to go to England to give UK market a go.
Not sure if that's extremely disrespectful or throws all the money and belief he put in back in his face.

We are now at the stage where we are 8 months in (you could say we lost 2 months with CV), Autumn is approaching and I feel there is a downturn in construction now that is going to last. Housebuilding will take precedence, and I have seen already that some firms have went bust and are doing work "for nothing" as I would called, on little or no profit margin. We've been undercut on a lot of tenders by margins that you would honestly be better sitting at home than doing the job.

It is a very awkward position for me - I am not 30 yet and my career was progressing well enough. We have had the conversation of what's going on, there isn't many jobs coming in to price. I still get job offers in the background of good salaries in Dublin but I haven't even replied as I have loyalty to my dad, he helped me out with my first property on top of the mortgage and has been there for me my whole life in tough times.


I am basically doing next to nothing these days (in saying that I'm trying hard to work up new contacts and networking) but I am feeling very guilty now about the wage coming out of the account. He doesn't care he said he wants to keep it going to December and then we'll take a look at things.

I don't want to damage our relationship as it's a great one, we're very close.

I think you're being perfectly reasonable. I have loads of friends working in the construction industry atm and their sentiment would most definitely echo yours. The construction industry is normally one of the first to feel the pinch from an economic downturn so the writing is probably on the wall, as you've said.

I think you're being a little hard on yourself. You entered into a partnership with your father in the hopes of growing a successful business. He may have provided the capital, but you invested your time and energy into giving your business the best opportunity possible.

If I were you, I would refuse the salary from here onwards and explain to your father that you don't want to move to the UK. Why would you? There are plenty of opportunities waiting for you in Dublin with larger companies like Rhatigan's, BAM, etc. Your best asset in construction is your reputation. You obviously have your head well screwed on and know the craic. Tell your dad how you feel and all will be fine.

CBear1993

Thanks LawBoy.

We said from the start we had to separate family from business, and would be partners in business hours, couldn't think on father & son terms.

I suppose I'm getting a bit too sentimental about it, If I did not know this man then I'd pull the plug, it's his loss.

But then family is never that simple. I owe him a lot from favours he has done me over the years and I feel guilt that this did'nt work, but I have definitely done everything I can on my side.

I would like to pay him back the money he has invested somehow, half of it obviously.

I know he will want to plough on to the end of the year, maybe I am dropping the head too early. I have stayed optimistic the whole year and would generally be an upbeat positive person, but of late I feel all my work is in vain.

the_pen_turner

Your biggest problem is that your a nobody with no history . Why would they give you a 300k job let alone several million euro one.

You need to get out there doing smaller jobs to build your brand and reputation.

The bigger guys will see your name and the work you do and consider you after they know you are a serious set up and can do the work.

You need a list subs that you can network with recommend to customers. They will then get you work knowing g it will get them work as well.

Have you tried going down the country a bit . Every one I know down here is flat out and turning down work

LawBoy2018

CBear1993 wrote: »

Thanks LawBoy.

We said from the start we had to separate family from business, and would be partners in business hours, couldn't think on father & son terms.

I suppose I'm getting a bit too sentimental about it, If I did not know this man then I'd pull the plug, it's his loss.

But then family is never that simple. I owe him a lot from favours he has done me over the years and I feel guilt that this did'nt work, but I have definitely done everything I can on my side.

I would like to pay him back the money he has invested somehow, half of it obviously.

I know he will want to plough on to the end of the year, maybe I am dropping the head too early. I have stayed optimistic the whole year and would generally be an upbeat positive person, but of late I feel all my work is in vain.

I'd imagine that the line between business and family in a situation such as yours would more often than not be murky, to say the least.

It's normal for people your age to feel as if they 'owe' their parents as a result of their success, education, etc, but all that 'most' parents want in return is to see their children succeed. From what you've said above, your father seems to be fairly comfortable financially.

I know exactly how you feel about your work thus far being in vain, but trying and failing something new is never in vain, so long as we learn from our mistakes. What you've learned throughout the last few months will most definitely stand to you down the line and help strengthen your business acumen going forward.

CBear1993

My dad's an ulster man (still lives there) and I'm living in Meath/Dublin border.

So it's a trek. I know you have to go where the work is. He has his own machinery but for us to take on a job in Munster/Connacht just wouldn't be feasible with accommodation/mobilisation of our plant etc versus local lads who can do it on their doorstep.

Yeah I'd agree with you 100% pen_turner. That was the issue. I did even try a small side business for a month of trying to do house extensions in Greater Dublin, showing bits of work we'd done on his own properties, gardens/patios etc.

After doing a bit of meaningful searching that market is very very saturated in Dublin/Kildare/Meath/Wicklow - although everyone is getting their house done up at the moment.

Ulster is a waste of time, lads take on jobs just to keep the wheels turning and pay the HP on their diggers. We would not entertain that and agreed at the start, if we can't make a profit then we're better sitting at home.
Our last few we priced were for big subcontractors, and we went in at cost/breakeven, still no good.
Competitors doing work for less than cost.

I've come to realise the hard way that a lot of guys must have been dreaming during Celtic Tiger. Unless you're in a big way of going and have the pressure of keeping gangs of men in work, it's very very hard to get in.

As you said, we would know no subcontractors at all on our level.

Metric Tensor

Are you going after small public works contracts? You may be doing all of the following already but if you aren't and fancy one last roll of the dice ....

1. Look for the smallest most mickey mouse projects on etenders. Interest can be very limited in small public works contracts because the paperwork is disproportionate for the scale of project - but you sound like you'd fly through that side of things.

2. The etenders threshold is 50k - for smaller public works contracts bodies can advertise locally. Write to the local ETBs, HSE depts, OPW, etc and ask to be placed on their list of contractors for projects that are below the etenders threshold. Make yourself look good with pictures of previous prohects, etc. Also the Dept of Education have a list on their website of every school to whom they gave construction money - if you ask the schools to be on the tender list they are obliged to include you.


I've two reasons for saying all of the above:
1. It might get you a few of the small jobs of which your Dad talks and you can build relationships from there.
2. If you are competitive it is VERY difficult on a public works contract to rule out the cheapest tenderer. It's not as "who you know" heavy as the private sector although that does still help in less tangible ways.


Apologies if you've already done all of the above.

CBear1993

No, MetricTensor thanks a million for the input, appreciate it!!

I have had a good rummage on Etenders now and again throughout the year. I'd agree with what you're saying.
We were awaiting the public frameworks to open again in July but it has all been put off until next year from the questions Ive asked.

I have been attracted to projects you mention, like schools requiring new tennis courts, or GAA clubs needing clubrooms etc.

Our downfall there is that we are specialist in groundworks/civils side of things - drainage, earthworks etc.

So when it comes to an actual building, the ground up part, we don't tender in that market.

As I had mentioned obviously my Dad has built a few houses over the years as one-offs but that was with local tradesmen he got in, friends etc.

Down here we would have to do the same and would ahve no reduced rates/ colleagues, so it would make it hard for us to be competitive.

I will definitely take a look though and try the suggestions you mentioned!!!!

CBear1993

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

I think you're being perfectly reasonable. I have loads of friends working in the construction industry atm and their sentiment would most definitely echo yours. The construction industry is normally one of the first to feel the pinch from an economic downturn so the writing is probably on the wall, as you've said.

I think you're being a little hard on yourself. You entered into a partnership with your father in the hopes of growing a successful business. He may have provided the capital, but you invested your time and energy into giving your business the best opportunity possible.

If I were you, I would refuse the salary from here onwards and explain to your father that you don't want to move to the UK. Why would you? There are plenty of opportunities waiting for you in Dublin with larger companies like Rhatigan's, BAM, etc. Your best asset in construction is your reputation. You obviously have your head well screwed on and know the craic. Tell your dad how you feel and all will be fine.

on the UK move - he has had previous success there, and has contacts that are in high up positions. However I am trying to stress to him that things aren't exactly rosy over there at the moment either and we literally cannot afford to just land over there like 2 eejits expecting a job. You would need to be absolutely signed up to a job and agreed before even setting up a base there or you could end up like we have done here.

The last time I travelled to England on a Mon-Fri basis though (with his firm) for a year after college, it meant that I gave up GAA and subsequently a relationship with previous partner ended as I was away all the time.

I don't know why, but I have this pull/feel an obligation that if he decides on focusing on UK from September that I have to go with him/can't opt out.

LawBoy2018

CBear1993 wrote: »

on the UK move - he has had previous success there, and has contacts that are in high up positions. However I am trying to stress to him that things aren't exactly rosy over there at the moment either and we literally cannot afford to just land over there like 2 eejits expecting a job. You would need to be absolutely signed up to a job and agreed before even setting up a base there or you could end up like we have done here.

The last time I travelled to England on a Mon-Fri basis though (with his firm) for a year after college, it meant that I gave up GAA and subsequently a relationship with previous partner ended as I was away all the time.

I don't know why, but I have this pull/feel an obligation that if he decides on focusing on UK from September that I have to go with him/can't opt out.

Really? That's ridiculous imo. I would say no, end of. You're 27/28, not 10!

CBear1993

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Really? That's ridiculous imo. I would say no, end of. You're 27/28, not 10!

Agreed, no we definitely have a man-to-man relationship, there's no pettying, and we have words the odd time and forget about it.

It's simply just a loyalty thing, as I know he'd stand by me, but would also be the first person to f*ck me off or tell me to catch myself on if I had a business that was pouring money down the drain.

silver2020

CBear1993 wrote: »

In hindsight, it really is all about who you know, we are a new firm, no one wants to take the gamble especially in this current climate. My biggest regret is that I should have left it another few years til I was higher up the food chain in construction, and would have been friends with people in high positions. THat's how it operates in ireland a lot, brown envelopes and all that craic.

Possibly the attitude is wrong - if you have this "brown envelope" thought in the background, you'll come across wrong.

That may have been the case 30 years ago, but not now.

The most important aspect is TRUST.

Trust that the builder will turn up.
Trust that the job will be done right
Trust that the job will be done on time
Trust that any issue will be resolved quickly

For jobs I've need over the years - warehouse extension, office builds and a small domestic job, I've always used the same person as I trust him.

So you need to get rid of the negative attitude, start small and build TRUST.

screamer

silver2020 wrote: »

Possibly the attitude is wrong - if you have this "brown envelope" thought in the background, you'll come across wrong.

That may have been the case 30 years ago, but not now.

The most important aspect is TRUST.

Trust that the builder will turn up.
Trust that the job will be done right
Trust that the job will be done on time
Trust that any issue will be resolved quickly

For jobs I've need over the years - warehouse extension, office builds and a small domestic job, I've always used the same person as I trust him.

So you need to get rid of the negative attitude, start small and build TRUST.

Oh god if you think brown envelopes aren’t still being handed out to win work or stay on a site you need to get out to site more. It’s rife, and TBH the lesser of things I know of that go on to win favour.

Op you know construction is dog eat dog, long hours, small margins and huge costs in terms of labour, not to mention the joke that is credit lines.
My advise is not going to help much but here it is. Before you ever go out on your own you have to establish your business, you have to become a known entity with a decent portfolio so that you can show what you’ve done and so that the big boys know you have the history of finishing things, so you’re not a huge risk. This takes years of slog and often it has to be done in tandem with a full time PAYE job. I would seriously worry about moving to the UK right now also, with Brexit barrelling down the track in January, and of course possible coronavirus resurgence, I don’t think the UK is a safe bet either.
What could your dad do alone with you working part time with him? If you were tendering the work could he complete it if he were to win it? Or could he sub it out and have him supervise on the ground? Really I think you need to go back to a paye job and use your skill set to build your business with your dad on the side. When it’s strong enough, you can go out on your own again, hopefully with a lot of work built up.
Construction is the last coach on the road as my FIL used to say, it’s tough and hard work and you really have to have a love for it, but if you do I get it, good luck to you.

CBear1993

silver2020 wrote: »

Possibly the attitude is wrong - if you have this "brown envelope" thought in the background, you'll come across wrong.

That may have been the case 30 years ago, but not now.

The most important aspect is TRUST.

Trust that the builder will turn up.
Trust that the job will be done right
Trust that the job will be done on time
Trust that any issue will be resolved quickly

For jobs I've need over the years - warehouse extension, office builds and a small domestic job, I've always used the same person as I trust him.

So you need to get rid of the negative attitude, start small and build TRUST.

No, I wouldn’t be for bribery at all, but it is rife out there, no denying that.

I’d agree with you about trust. We have been looking at very small jobs the last few weeks, 2-3 weeks work for €20K or less. Just myself, him and another lad , I’d work on the ground myself to get us up and going.

But would agree with @screamer, it is getting harder for subbies to make a profit.

I am at the verge now of saying to him, I’ll go back and work for someone and if tenders come in I’ll price them.

I am glad in that I have got him a contact where him and a few of the uncles can go and work for someone else for a while subbed in, and maybe take it from there.
I have received a very good offer to go and work on one of these data centres at good money, I interviewed well but I’ve turned them down / held them off because I am trying to make this work , still pledging allegiance to my dad!

Haven’t told him anything about the offer, it really is at the stage now where I’m asking myself do I even want the hassle of trying to take on small awkward jobs just to get the thing up and running. We could be sitting twiddling our thumbs to Christmas if Covid comes back.

Thanks for your advice

CBear1993

silver2020 wrote: »

Possibly the attitude is wrong - if you have this "brown envelope" thought in the background, you'll come across wrong.

That may have been the case 30 years ago, but not now.

The most important aspect is TRUST.

Trust that the builder will turn up.
Trust that the job will be done right
Trust that the job will be done on time
Trust that any issue will be resolved quickly

For jobs I've need over the years - warehouse extension, office builds and a small domestic job, I've always used the same person as I trust him.

So you need to get rid of the negative attitude, start small and build TRUST.

Yeah but no one will take the gamble on you to give you that chance to show you can fulfil that trust

CBear1993

Thanks for replies. Will close thread

CBear1993

Still no job we have been able to secure now, approaching August from Starting just before Christmas 2019.

I counted last week and I think I've priced 57 tenders (which we were definitely competitive on),

I have received an offer from a consultancy in construction, after I did one interview via zoom. It's a €15K salary increase on what I'm on, and a great opportunity.

I now need to have the tough discussion with my dad about it. He had said to me about a month ago when I told him we need to look at things as they aren't going well- "if something right comes up for you, go for it".

But deep down I know he wants to land something and is still considering going over to england after August.

I know what I have to do now but it's the fear of putting our relationship at risk, and coming across as ungrateful!!

LawBoy2018

CBear1993 wrote: »

Still no job we have been able to secure now, approaching August from Starting just before Christmas 2019.

I counted last week and I think I've priced 57 tenders (which we were definitely competitive on),

I have received an offer from a consultancy in construction, after I did one interview via zoom. It's a €15K salary increase on what I'm on, and a great opportunity.

I now need to have the tough discussion with my dad about it. He had said to me about a month ago when I told him we need to look at things as they aren't going well- "if something right comes up for you, go for it".

But deep down I know he wants to land something and is still considering going over to england after August.

I know what I have to do now but it's the fear of putting our relationship at risk, and coming across as ungrateful!!

You'll be G, congrats on the offer! You would have been mental to move to the UK, imo. Why is your dad bothered moving over there, if you don't mind me asking? Seems quite risky for someone presumably a bit older. Fair play to him though, I admire his hustle!

Bagels4me

Can you not take the job and continue to do tenders for your own work on the side?

CBear1993

Bagels4me wrote: »

Can you not take the job and continue to do tenders for your own work on the side?

Yeah i could do, but the whole point of starting this was that he had the "hands on" project experience physically out on the site, whereas I took control of everything commercially and pricing, something he never had in the past.

I know he won't continue with things if I am to leave.

But yes, absolutely I could price jobs for him on the side when they still come in.

CBear1993

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

You'll be G, congrats on the offer! You would have been mental to move to the UK, imo. Why is your dad bothered moving over there, if you don't mind me asking? Seems quite risky for someone presumably a bit older. Fair play to him though, I admire his hustle!

It's more that he wants to try win work over there because he was previously successful. No he definitely wouldn't move, even when we were still at school he'd be over there monday-friday but always flew home at weekends, he was very family oriented.

His angle this time is that we could get up and going with him over there say tues-thurs or the same setup, mon-fri, likewise with me.

I tended to disagree and said I believe I'd need to relocate myself full time over there as the travelling is exhausting and not worth it.

Bagels4me

CBear1993 wrote: »

It's more that he wants to try win work over there because he was previously successful. No he definitely wouldn't move, even when we were still at school he'd be over there monday-friday but always flew home at weekends, he was very family oriented.

His angle this time is that we could get up and going with him over there say tues-thurs or the same setup, mon-fri, likewise with me.

I tended to disagree and said I believe I'd need to relocate myself full time over there as the travelling is exhausting and not worth it.

I know several people that travel over and back every week, wouldn't be arsed at that
I'm in London at the moment, although things have picked up, production has slowed down, social distancing and all that
I know of a number of well known companies have gone under in the last few weeks alone

CBear1993

Bagels4me wrote: »

I know several people that travel over and back every week, wouldn't be arsed at that
I'm in London at the moment, although things have picked up, production has slowed down, social distancing and all that
I know of a number of well known companies have gone under in the last few weeks alone

Yeah I’m the same, would rather just move over.

Thanks for the input though, appreciate it