New pedestrian zone at Grangegorman

trellheim

For no apparent reason just outside the clock tower has been temporarily pedestrianized .

please be careful as it is completely unexpected . As a local cyclist and pedestrian ( and sometime (rare) motorist ) I have to say I'm lost as to this

Just because you could, doesn't mean you should.

Alvin Holler

I got a bit of a shock when I was driving down that way this morning. Didn't see any signs on the way down. Guess I'll have to go through stoneybatter in the future.

Peregrine

It's not pedestrianised, it's filtered permeability. You can drive up to it on both sides but not through it. So it doesn't prevent access, it just removes through traffic. You can walk or cycle through the gaps. It's an initiative supported by local residents and schools to reduce traffic on the road before the schools and the college starts back. I suppose the idea is to calm the street enough to feel comfortable letting your kids play outside.

This was done on Walsh Road a few years ago to stop people using the residential and school area as a rat run. It was fiercely opposed by people who drove through it as a shortcut but ended up being widely supported by residents after it was implemented when they got a safer street. I know someone who lives there who was behind it and they got so much vitriol from people who didn't like being told they couldn't drive through there to save a few minutes.
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3702837,-6.2595141,3a,75y,116.44h,83.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCXXI-X3Qt9XAfBs7aDXqkg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

It's an increasingly common and successful method of calming streets in cities like London
https://twitter.com/__kbaker__/status/1181999039040147457

There were quite a few of these put in Dublin years ago. They blended in and we just don't notice them anymore. They weren't installed in high viz back then either.
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3518199,-6.2733965,3a,46.6y,162.69h,82.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxGLGWJ2S42Qh7HTBVXnG1Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3715463,-6.1953836,3a,34.2y,187.38h,90.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scMmLDt7YlWNmu_x_-OfA8Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3975411,-6.2919144,3a,60y,121.03h,81.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6IDpFiOOV97WFD6HYoH3-w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3495555,-6.2739045,3a,60y,255.6h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swwDxPnpgKzB6cX6OwafQXg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3679438,-6.2726787,3a,36.6y,253.11h,87.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGDjtdjPTAeXJ1qVxlFf8PQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Then we just sort of stopped doing them.

tropple

This is a completely sensible move. In a couple of years, there will be 20,000 students at Grangegorman and the main entrance will be from Constitution Hill.

I would much rather have a pedestrian and cyclist friendly space than a road running through the middle of the campus.

Peregrine

tropple wrote: »

This is a completely sensible move. In a couple of years, there will be 20,000 students at Grangegorman and the main entrance will be from Constitution Hill.

I would much rather have a pedestrian and cyclist friendly space than a road running through the middle of the campus.

Yeah, they were supposed to have 10,000 of the 20,000 on campus this September before COVID delays. And the road cuts right through the campus. The buildings to the east of Grangegorman Road is still on schedule to open in September. Having through traffic there with that many students crossing between the two sides of the campus would be a disaster.

trellheim

Having through traffic there with that many students crossing between the two sides of the campus would be a disaster.

There's an underpass which they haven't opened .

In all fairness theres a million other ratruns that actually needed fixing like Arbour hill in the area this one didn't need fixing.

markpb

trellheim wrote: »

There's an underpass which they haven't opened

Underpasses aren't terribly pedestrian or cycle friendly. And they're not appropriate where the volume of pedestrians/cyclists outweighs the volume of traffic.

In all fairness theres a million other ratruns that actually needed fixing like Arbour hill in the area this one didn't need fixing.

The local residents asked the council to fix it and it didn't require Part 8 or any infrastructure/building works so it's a quick win. It would be crazy not to do it just because something needs to be done somewhere else.

trellheim

The local residents asked the council to fix it

Did they ? I live less than 800m away and thats the first I've heard.

Peregrine

trellheim wrote: »

In all fairness theres a million other ratruns that actually needed fixing like Arbour hill in the area this one didn't need fixing.

In all fairness, they didn't request it. Whereas the local residents here put a lot of work into this and the Council worked with them.

What, in your opinion, should they have done? Tell the people who took initiative to go away because there are bigger rat runs that needs fixing even though there's no similar support there to fix them?

trellheim wrote: »

Did they ? I live less than 800m away and thats the first I've heard.

Yes. Kirwan Street & Cottages Residents' Association, Rathdown Road & District Residents' Association and Grangegorman Lower Residents' Association requested it back in May.

There's another one proposed for Poolbeg.

trellheim

Tell the people who took initiative to go away because there are bigger rat runs that needs fixing

there's not an unlimited budget for stuff. If grangegorman was a jammed ratrun I'd be right up there with cutting it off. But its not.

Spanish Eyes

Could someone show me this on google maps please. I'm not familiar with the area, but have to say the new campus looks great. Thanks.

Peregrine

trellheim wrote: »

there's not an unlimited budget for stuff. If grangegorman was a jammed ratrun I'd be right up there with cutting it off. But its not.

How much do 8 bollards cost? A few hundred euro? The planters are temporary for the trial and came from their depot. I don't think we'll be going bankrupt because of the cost of a few bollards any time soon.

It doesn't have to be jammed for it to be dangerous. Rat runs are generally not jammed. If not a lot of people use it, as you say, then it shouldn't be a problem, right? Residents, schoolchildren and students get a safer street and a small number of people have to make a detour.

So, to be clear, you're saying that when all the residents associations on this road came to the Council with a proposal to make their street safer for them, for the schools on the road and for the thousands of college students that will move there, the Council should have said no because of the cost of 8 bollards and the fact that there are bigger rat runs in places where there's no local support to fix them?

And then continue to do nothing because there's no local support? It took 2 years since Walsh Road for the Council to do another one because of lack of local support. So when there is local support for once, why shouldn't the Council work with them on it?

Victor

Alvin Holler wrote: »

Didn't see any signs on the way down.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Could someone show me this on google maps please. I'm not familiar with the area, but have to say the new campus looks great. Thanks.

The bollards are here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/7689120869#map=16/53.3554/-6.2782 Tehre may be a second set a short distance away.

Alvin Holler

Victor wrote: »

They put the bollards up before they put up the signs!

trellheim

How much do 8 bollards cost? A few hundred euro? The planters are temporary for the trial and came from their depot. I don't think we'll be going bankrupt because of the cost of a few bollards any time soon.

Depends if there's no money to put same up on Arbour hill where there IS an actual ratrun and a need for this type of thing.

Like I said if it was a crowded ratrun I'd be right up there in support. Do I drive down it ? No, I cycle the 99% of time to the office. and am frequently nearly creamed at Arbour Hill/Brunswick St junction outside Walsh's where something like this is hugely needed and so I go "what, they did that and didn't bother with the actual ones where people are extremely frequently at risk ? "

( and of course bollarding off the northbound cycle lane yesterday in Stoneybatter ) .... like folks wtf fix the actual problems ffs ( and that IS my cycle commute home bollard off Arbour hill ffs )

Podge_irl

trellheim wrote: »

Depends if there's no money to put same up on Arbour hill where there IS an actual ratrun and a need for this type of thing.

There is money for both and more - DCC are quite clearly going quite wild with their measures at the moment. But its a lot easier to implement these things with the active support of the local community.

Hurrache

trellheim wrote: »

Arbour hill where there IS an actual ratrun and a need for this type of thing.

Like I said if it was a crowded ratrun I'd be right up there in support.

I'm just realising where this zone is. When I used to drive into the city, I certainly used this route as a rat run to avoid Stoneybatter and come out onto Brunswick Street.

Lux23

It's not so much that it is busy road, it is more that it actually is quieter and motorists tend to speed by the campus entrance and the school at the end of the road. It is hilly too, so sometimes you don't cars until they are right on top of you.

Alvin Holler

Article on this in Dublin Inquirer

https://www.dublininquirer.com/2020/08/05/trial-run-of-filtered-permeability-measures-in-grangegorman-sees-mixed-response-from-locals

MikeHoncho

I have no problem with this in theory and it has been done for the right reasons but think it has been executed pretty poorly. It has made access to the bring centre a total joke especially on weekdays when the builders are clogging it all up. This an important local amenity and it should not be made more difficult for people to recycle. People are just abandoning their cars to run in to do their recycling. It just seems counterintuitive to the spirit of what they are trying to achieve.

homerun_homer

I got caught at this cut off two weeks ago and was totally surprised by it's appearance. I know the residents may, or may not have asked for something to be done, but it's bizarre. That stretch of road is very wide and can take parked cars, cyclists, pedestrians and cars. I know it bottle necks at the bottom as you pass the campus but it makes no sense to me. Add more speed bumps if traffic needed slowing.
I've passed from Cabra into town many of time on foot or Dublin bike that way and haven't ever seen it clogged up with cars, or felt in danger as a cyclist. I have made use of that route at peak times in the car if I have had to run an errand and don't want to get stuck in traffic going up Constitution Hill through Phibsborough. Again, any time I've used it on a rare occassion at peak time I've yet to see the area congested. This decision will make a bigger impact on Kirwan St as cars try u-turn and make their way through Stoneybatter. That can't be ideal for those residents.

wowy

tropple wrote: »

This is a completely sensible move. In a couple of years, there will be 20,000 students at Grangegorman and the main entrance will be from Constitution Hill.

I would much rather have a pedestrian and cyclist friendly space than a road running through the middle of the campus.

Not only is it a sensible move, it was always the intention that this would become a pedestrianised zone. It's been part of the SDZ plans for the TUD site since early days, and was just accelerated along with other traffic/active travel measures being taken around the city.

Local residents that are opposed can probably claim to be surprised that it happened so quickly, but they certainly can't justifiably claim that they didn't know about the proposal.

spurious

Discovered this yesterday when going to the recycling centre.

Huge truck parked in the middle of the road, chaos as cars carrying recycling waste stopped in the middle of the road and then began reversing trying to get out again. At a minimum there should be some sort of a dedicated turning area to get out of there.

The side coming up from Grangegorman Lower didn't seem so badly organised.

abcabc123123

Peregrine wrote: »

Yes. Kirwan Street & Cottages Residents' Association, Rathdown Road & District Residents' Association and Grangegorman Lower Residents' Association requested it back in May.

Small point but the residents association of Kirwan St & Cottages didn't request it; it was a group of residents of the area. Rathdown Road had a public meeting late last year about it though with 40-45 people in attendance, and it had near unanimous support. One or two streets weren't invited to the meeting though which understandably put some noses out of joint.

Traffic in the area has dropped considerably since this went in and there are a lot more cyclists using the street, which was the primary aim for me. Those numbers would increase further if some segregated cycle lanes could be added to Brunswick St, George's Lane and Queen Street.

It'll be interesting to see the response from parents once the schools go back.

LorelaiG

So let me see if I've got this correct. If I'm trying to get the Grangegorman primary care centre and I come from charleville road I need to turn left and then right onto rathdown road rather than right then left onto Grangegorman upper? I've to drive there tomorrow so just making sure