'Million-mile' electric-car battery

iomusicdublin

Contemporary Amperex Technology Co. Ltd. (CATL) – an electric vehicle battery supplier to Tesla and Volkswagen – has completed development of a battery that it claims will last for 2 million kilometres of driving.


In an interview with news agency Bloomberg earlier this week, CATL’s chairman Zeng Yuqun said development of the battery pack was finished and production was ready to begin.


“If someone places an order, we are ready to produce,” Mr Yuqun told Bloomberg.


The new CATL battery pack is expected to last 16 years of use. By comparison, the most common battery warranty currently offered on an electric car is eight years or 160,000km.


It is however expected the new battery technology will first appear in a Tesla model, after the US electric vehicle specialist and CATL signed a two-year contract in February this year.

zg3409

Unless they give a guarantee with the car the battery will last 2 million km, then its just an unsubstantiated claim with no caveats of age, number of fast charges etc.

I think ford recently claimed their battery might last a million miles, but they don't intend liquid cooling it and won't warranty that claim.

Age has been found to be a big factor for old Nissan leaf batteries irrespective of range as detailed with the public display of historical Nissan data.

Who gives the highest km warranty on EV battery? Hyundai is limited to 160,000km. Hyundai hide the 5% extra battery capacity so it will display 100% state of health until the actual health drops below 95% initial capacity. Different models and years of cars have different battery chemistry and suppliers.

slave1

Who gives the highest km warranty on EV battery?

Think Tesla, original Model S of 8 years unlimited mileage

unkel

A lot of hype. The average ICE car in this country is scrapped with between 100k and 200k km on it. EVs will last a lot longer, but not many of them will see over 300k-400k km. Almost all current batteries (except maybe those in a Nissan Leaf) should last that long with relatively modest degradation

Lumen

I hope that the game changing factor is that you can "abuse" the batteries without degrading them signficantly over the normal lifespan of a car, e.g. charge to 100% all the time, fast charge at high SoC.

Mike3287

slave1 wrote: »

Who gives the highest km warranty on EV battery?

Think Tesla, original Model S of 8 years unlimited mileage

Hyundai had lifetime on Ioniq in US I think

secman

Lumen wrote: »

I hope that the game changing factor is that you can "abuse" the batteries without degrading them signficantly over the normal lifespan of a car, e.g. charge to 100% all the time, fast charge at high SoC.

The game changer here will be ESB Networks having to do a massive upgrade on the electric infrastructure. It was explained to me yesterday by a very knowledgable sparks that typically if 10 houses from a road of say 30 houses moved to electric cars that the system currently could not cope with 10 cars plugged in, a similar amount of electric showers and kettles, and that's what will be the real game changer.

liamog

secman wrote: »

The game changer here will be ESB Networks having to do a massive upgrade on the electric infrastructure. It was explained to me yesterday by a very knowledgable sparks that typically if 10 houses from a road of say 30 houses moved to electric cars that the system currently could not cope with 10 cars plugged in, a similar amount of electric showers and kettles, and that's what will be the real game changer.

Whilst true, a registered electrician won't allow you to install a 32A charger in a home with an electric shower unless you have a monitoring device or a priority switch.
I watched an engineers Ireland talk from ESB last year. I seem to remember the they believed that upgrades weren't required to local networks except in some very localised areas.

Lumen

secman wrote: »

The game changer here will be ESB Networks having to do a massive upgrade on the electric infrastructure. It was explained to me yesterday by a very knowledgable sparks that typically if 10 houses from a road of say 30 houses moved to electric cars that the system currently could not cope with 10 cars plugged in, a similar amount of electric showers and kettles, and that's what will be the real game changer.

Electric cars are typically charged whilst people are sleeping, not boiling kettles and taking showers, so as well as being completely unrelated to battery tech, that sounds like uninformed nonsense to me.

pdpmur

secman wrote: »

The game changer here will be ESB Networks having to do a massive upgrade on the electric infrastructure. It was explained to me yesterday by a very knowledgable sparks that typically if 10 houses from a road of say 30 houses moved to electric cars that the system currently could not cope with 10 cars plugged in, a similar amount of electric showers and kettles, and that's what will be the real game changer.

In a very recent large housing estate project that I have been involved with I understand from discussions that the ESB has upped the load allowance per house from the local step-down transformer to accommodate the increased electrical loads due to domestic heat pumps, but apparently has made no specific allowance for an early large increased load requirement caused by car charging. It seems ESB Networks is adopting a general wait-and-see/monitor approach generally and will start upgrading local infrastructure as and when demand requires.
So I don't think that it's something to be particularly worried about when making a domestic EVSE installation decision.

ted1

secman wrote: »

The game changer here will be ESB Networks having to do a massive upgrade on the electric infrastructure. It was explained to me yesterday by a very knowledgable sparks that typically if 10 houses from a road of say 30 houses moved to electric cars that the system currently could not cope with 10 cars plugged in, a similar amount of electric showers and kettles, and that's what will be the real game changer.

And that upgrade is planned , 19bn being invested in the grid. New builds have a higher MIC available. By the time ten houses in a tie have an EV the system will be able to cope.

Your sparks wouldn’t have to be very knowledgeable to know that. No real game changer as it’s not an obstacle to ev ownership

Advances in an existing battery technology believed to behind a forthcoming big announcement from Tesla.

Too be seen in vehicles by 2025 or even sooner

Reduces or removes expensive cobalt and nickel

Battery can last longer than the car and have a second Life in power storage


https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/06/30/tesla-and-the-science-of-low-cost-next-gen-ev-million-mile-battery.html

Shefwedfan

IBM announcement more impressive....

https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2019/12/heavy-metal-free-battery/

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

IBM announcement more impressive....

https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2019/12/heavy-metal-free-battery/

That seems to be early stage research really though. May never be commercial.

There are lots of such articles about research so it's not comparable

The lithium iron is going to actually happen and be in cars in 3 to 5 years

Shefwedfan

glasso wrote: »

That seems to be early stage research really though. May never be commercial.

There are lots of such articles about research so it's not comparable

The lithium iron is going to actually happen and be in cars in 3 to 5 years

I think everything Tesla should always have a big question mark over it. This could be just another press release to bump the share price.



Its a huge article with nothing in it. The only bit interesting to me is

"The company didn't return requests for comment. An outside Tesla technical advisor, Jeff Dahn, a professor at Dalhousie University in Canada who is a battery and energy-storage expert with a Tesla research sponsorship,declined comment."


Sorry but based on history I dont believe much that comes out of Tesla


Hopefully advancments are made, but I doubt any car company is going to massively change batteries for another 5-6 years. They have invested huge money to get to a decent car range.

Yeah probably just fake news

https://www.google.com/amp/s/electrek.co/2020/06/11/tesla-secures-approval-model-3-cheaper-lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN22Q1WC

It's an evolution of the battery technology, not throwing away what is already there. It's also an existing (lithium iron phosphate) battery type.

They are far from the only company using it

Shefwedfan

glasso wrote: »

Yeah probably just fake news

https://www.google.com/amp/s/electrek.co/2020/06/11/tesla-secures-approval-model-3-cheaper-lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN22Q1WC

Sorry this is to prove it is true? electrek own Tesla shares and got caught out with all the pro-Tesla articles they had to publish on the website the links they have with Tesla.

THe other article again just points to Musk and no facts.

Maybe they have and it would be great, any advancement is brill for the industry and making electric cars cheaper is better for everyone.

But as I have everything I see come out of Tesla has to have a question mark over it, especially when the main selling point they had for years around the Model 3 never actually arrived.

I would love huge development so please dont get me wrong. My car is up in 3 years and I would love a shiny new XYZ from whoever. VW and Tesla are on my company car approved list. Just when you read article, no details from the scientists, one articles mentions pushing back board meeting for this new "announcement" it all smells of giving a little boost to share prices now. Hopefully I am wrong

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Sorry this is to prove it is true? electrek own Tesla shares and got caught out with all the pro-Tesla articles they had to publish on the website the links they have with Tesla.



THe other article again just points to Musk and no facts.


Maybe they have and it would be great, any advancement is brill for the industry and making electric cars cheaper is better for everyone.


But as I have everything I see come out of Tesla has to have a question mark over it, especially when the main selling point they had for years around the Model 3 never actually arrived.

Do Reuters own Tesla shares also?

Let's see. There appears to be concrete steps here, not just hyperbole or some early stage IBM lab research

https://www.google.com/amp/s/cleantechnica.com/2020/02/18/how-catl-lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries-could-be-leading-to-100-kwh-tesla-model-3/amp/

Certainly don't seen to be Tesla shills here, b fact quite the opposite yet they have some proof.

As I said it's not a new technology but an existing one

SomeGuyCalledMi

Tesla and spacex have delivered in spectacular fashion in the past on many things. Big announcement on September 15th apparently.

Shefwedfan

glasso wrote: »

Do Reuters own Tesla shares also?

Let's see. There appears to be concrete steps here, not just hyperbole or some early stage IBM lab research

I did add a bit to my post


Just on Reuters, this is what it says: For months, Tesla Chief Executive Elon Musk has been teasing investors, and rivals, with promises to reveal significant advances in battery technology during a “Battery Day” in late May.

The rest of article is just a update on Tesla.



Not sure what happened the "Battery Day" in late May?

Shefwedfan

glasso wrote: »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/cleantechnica.com/2020/02/18/how-catl-lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries-could-be-leading-to-100-kwh-tesla-model-3/amp/

Certainly don't seen to be Tesla shills here, b fact quite the opposite yet they have some proof.

As I said it's not a new technology but an existing one

I think you will find Cleantechnica also are Tesla share holders. :P

They all got caught out and hammered, to get around it they stick disclaimer in random spots around the website

See disclaimer on the bottom here: https://cleantechnica.com/2020/05/12/tsla-its-all-an-opinion-imo/

I am a Tesla shareholder who has purchased shares within the preceding 12 months. Research I do for articles, including this article, may compel me to increase or decrease stock positions. However, I will not do so within 48 hours after any article in which I discuss matters that I feel may materially affect stock price is published. I do not believe that my voice could or should influence stock price by itself, and I strongly caution anyone against using my work as your sole data point to choose to invest or divest in any company. My articles are my opinion, which was formulated using research based on publicly available data. However, my research or conclusions may be incorrect.

SomeGuyCalledMi

SomeGuyCalledMi wrote: »

Tesla and spacex have delivered in spectacular fashion in the past on many things. Big announcement on September 15th apparently.

Indeed

This seems to be stongly pointing to both reducing the cost of the batteries and meaning there would be a value for the battery after the car usage in power storage which can only mean more competitive pricing.

I sense residual butt hurt as if Elon musk promised that you could buy a model 3 in Ireland for 30k or something

Shefwedfan

glasso wrote: »

Indeed

This seems to be strictly pointing to both reducing the cost of the batteries and meaning there would be a value for the battery after the car usage in power storage which can only mean more competitive pricing.

I sense residual butt hurt as if Elon musk promised that you could buy a model 3 in Ireland for 30k or something

Is that the same Model 3 that was going for sale for 35k USD? :P


If they could sell a Model 3 at 30k it would be incredible and massively help to push electric cars out to market

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Is that the same Model 3 that was going for sale for 35k USD? :P


If they could sell a Model 3 at 30k it would be incredible and massively help to push electric cars out to market

Maybe more than residual

Lumen

Whilst Tesla's charging performance and low cobalt % is impressive, this story isn't really about Tesla; Tesla don't make their own batteries.

From what I can tell, CATL's LFP cells seem to be more durable but have a lower energy density than Panasonic's NCA cells used in the Model 3, so the pack is maybe 25-50% heavier, which means the car is less efficient.

I don't know how charging rates compare.

Can anyone expand on/correct this? Rather than just bitching about Tesla.

yes I agree, it's not about Tesla really.

I should have left them out of the original post really even though the title wasn't, as there seems to be a lot of emotion for some around them and particularly who may have bought a Tesla share or not.

the key points on the positive seem to be

-> getting the $/Kwh price down below 100 by getting expensive Cobalt and Nickel out

-> longer battery life

-> having a "residual" battery value for energy storage after the primary usage in vehicles

I didn't know about extra weight makes sense.

yes charging rates is another valid question - conspicuous by its absence in the information.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtvvJ5u1Sdo

Lumen

One of the interesting advantages of LFP batteries is, according to Wikipedia, that "LFP experiences much slower degradation when stored in a fully charged state".

This would seem to offset some of the weight and volume penalty, because rather than overspecifying the battery, adding top and bottom buffers and discouraging users from charging to 100%, you can presumably just ship the battery with 100% available.

Relatedly, "voltage stays close to 3.2 V during discharge until the cell is exhausted. This allows the cell to deliver virtually full power until it is discharged", so no more limp mode

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery#Advantages_and_disadvantages

as the video says though - a lot of unknowns at this point around the full suite of battery characteristics.

does make one wonder what the "battery day" announcement may be however.

Shefwedfan

glasso wrote: »

as the video says though - a lot of unknowns at this point around the full suite of battery characteristics.

does make one wonder what the "battery day" announcement may be however.

Was battery day not in May?

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Was battery day not in May?

no

Mike3287

glasso wrote: »

yes I agree, it's not about Tesla really.

I should have left them out of the original post really even though the title wasn't, as there seems to be a lot of emotion for some around them and particularly who may have bought a Tesla share or not.

the key points on the positive seem to be

-> getting the $/Kwh price down below 100 by getting expensive Cobalt and Nickel out

-> longer battery life

-> having a "residual" battery value for energy storage after the primary usage in vehicles

I didn't know about extra weight makes sense.

yes charging rates is another valid question - conspicuous by its absence in the information.

Tesla is supposedly going to use these cells in future vehicles, not just in Chinese Market

Panasonic will be ditched apparently and Korean giants are worried about market share as they will be too expensive

Chinese have made huge improvements with lfp/lfmp cell to pack batteries

200W/kg at pack level
3c charging ( averages 2c at 0-100% )
$80 per kWh at pack level
3000 cycles to 70% @ 1c
No liquid cooling needed

60kWh, 300kg battery, 400km range, 0-100% 30min charge, 1 million km cycle life for under $5000 will be available in 2021

Its costing more than double that right now when you include all the advanced liquid cooling and having to assemble the cells in the pack

Mike3287

Mike3287 wrote: »

Tesla is supposedly going to use these cells in future vehicles, not just in Chinese Market

Panasonic will be ditched apparently and Korean giants are worried about market share as they will be too expensive

Chinese have made huge improvements with lfp/lfmp cell to pack batteries

200W/kg at pack level
3c charging ( averages 2c at 0-100% )
$80 per kWh at pack level
3000 cycles to 70% @ 1c
No liquid cooling needed

60kWh, 300kg battery, 400km range, 0-100% 30min charge, 1 million km cycle life for under $5000 will be available in 2021

Its costing more than double that right now when you include all the advanced liquid cooling and having to assemble the cells in the pack

it's important to ask - do you own any Tesla shares?

Mike3287

glasso wrote: »

it's important to ask - do you own any Tesla shares?

I do, 5 shares :pac:

Bought them when Elon was smoking weed on Joe Rogan