Northern Ireland's Share of the UK's Military Should Irish Reunification Occur

Lord Fairlord

What if any, would Northern Ireland's share of the UK's military be if Irish reunification were to occur?
It has occurred to me that if reunification were to happen, NI's share in certain military assets might be forfeited in return for a forfeiting of debt etc. Nonetheless it might be an interesting excerise.

Jimmy McGill

In cases like this they have to be given a choice to move to the UK and remain with the British Army, or stay and join the United Irish Army.

Using when Russia annexed Crimea in recent years, soldiers were given a choice to either move into Ukrainian territory and remain with the Ukrainian army, or stay in Crimea and join the Russian army (which the majority of them chose to do).

Lord Fairlord

Jimmy McGill wrote: »

In cases like this they have to be given a choice to move to the UK and remain with the British Army, or stay and join the United Irish Army.

Using when Russia annexed Crimea in recent years, soldiers were given a choice to either move into Ukrainian territory and remain with the Ukrainian army, or stay in Crimea and join the Russian army (which the majority of them chose to do).

Thanks for your reply. That'd be an important consideration if reunification were ever to happen.

sparky42

I doubt any such handover of equipment or personal would happen tbh.

Rodney Bathgate

Northern Ireland’s share of the UK national debt would be EUR 56 billion at a minimum (assuming based on approx 2.8% of UK population). Any NI ‘share’ of UK military will be paltry compared to that.

Lord Fairlord

sparky42 wrote: »

I doubt any such handover of equipment or personal would happen tbh.

Fair enough but why so?

Lord Fairlord

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Northern Ireland’s share of the UK national debt would be EUR 56 billion at a minimum (assuming based on approx 2.8% of UK population). Any NI ‘share’ of UK military will be paltry compared to that.

Indeed but I think it fair to highlight that NI does have a share in UK assets.

Notmything

Would the personnel and assets not be the British armys? So if the north becomes part of the Republic they will just be re-located to the mainland.

Physical assets like bases will be handed over but can't see hardware or personnel being transferred.

Rodney Bathgate

Lord Fairlord wrote: »

Indeed but I think it fair to highlight that NI does have a share in UK assets.

I would question that assumption. NI is by far a net recipient of funding from the UK exchequer. I think I have seen the figure of GBP 8 billion per annum bandied about. NI has never paid its way. So if they took that fully into account then the debt share should be significantly higher than the amount I quoted. At best the UK would leave any state owned infrastructure in place but what assets does the UK have that came from NI being part of the UK?

Possible fishing rights but the Scottish and Irish fishing rights and possibly Rockall(?) would negate much of that. Oil and gas rights?

Is there even any UK military or military assets in NI these days?

They can look for a share of the UK gold reserve, whatever is left after Gordon Browns firesale. Not sure that will be forthcoming.

Lord Fairlord

Notmything wrote: »

Would the personnel and assets not be the British armys? So if the north becomes part of the Republic they will just be re-located to the mainland.

Physical assets like bases will be handed over but can't see hardware or personnel being transferred.

Technically the British army is NI's army.

sparky42

Lord Fairlord wrote: »

Fair enough but why so?

Because at best you'd see any "NI share" being traded off their share of the National Debt I would imagine, meanwhile the chances of large transfers of UK military personal into the DF, are beyond slim.

Lord Fairlord

sparky42 wrote: »

Because at best you'd see any "NI share" being traded off their share of the National Debt I would imagine, meanwhile the chances of large transfers of UK military personal into the DF, are beyond slim.

Fair points; it wouldn't surprise me if things played out like that.

Rodney Bathgate

Ultimately the reality is you don’t set the the terms when you choose to leave the club.

Notmything

Lord Fairlord wrote: »

Technically the British army is NI's army.

Sure in that case we can get the stormont assembly to have a few mbts, artillery pieces and helicopters brought in. When reunification occurs we'll be sorted.

Larbre34

I don't think it would arise that specifically. I imagine any settlement would be some sort of debt transfer or bond based on an aggregate asset value across all public services and properties.

I'd say all UK armed forces would relocate back to Britain and perhaps the nominally Irish regiments be stood down. Perhaps the PSNI would be slowly integrated into the Gardaí but I can't see the military being.

sparky42

Larbre34 wrote: »

I don't think it would arise that specifically. I imagine any settlement would be some sort of debt transfer or bond based on an aggregate asset value across all public services and properties.

I'd say all UK armed forces would relocate back to Britain and perhaps the nominally Irish regiments be stood down. Perhaps the PSNI would be slowly integrated into the Gardaí but I can't see the military being.

I think tbh, the Irish Regiments would be sustained even with a Unification, but yeah the PSNI and Gardaí would likely be the only integration.

Lord Fairlord

Larbre34 wrote: »

I don't think it would arise that specifically. I imagine any settlement would be some sort of debt transfer or bond based on an aggregate asset value across all public services and properties.

I'd say all UK armed forces would relocate back to Britain and perhaps the nominally Irish regiments be stood down. Perhaps the PSNI would be slowly integrated into the Gardaí but I can't see the military being.

Interesting answer - thank you.

I suppose trying to integrate the two sets of military assets might be a nuisance for the DF.

Larbre34

Lord Fairlord wrote: »

Interesting answer - thank you.

I suppose trying to integrate the two sets of military assets might be a nuisance for the DF.

Its not just that. From the other side, if you take the PSNI, you could leave the structure of that service in place and have them operate much as a Garda division does, largely autonomous, up to a certain point. Day to day wouldn't change much for the officers on the ground.

But nobody in the UK armed forces signed up to be loyal to Ireland in an Irish Army. Most of the servicemen are from Britain itself, unlike the PSNI, they only serve in N.I. on a rotational basis as they would in Afghanistan or Germany or Cyprus etc. and so you couldn't just tell them they had no chair when the music stopped.

Yes no doubt the value of bases would be included in the financial settlement, but just as empty shells, you wouldn't be talking about vehicles or IT and comms, they are all proprietary and highly secure and would return to Britain.

Lord Fairlord

Larbre34 wrote: »

Its not just that. From the other side, if you take the PSNI, you could leave the structure of that service in place and have them operate much as a Garda division does, largely autonomous, up to a certain point. Day to day wouldn't change much for the officers on the ground.

But nobody in the UK armed forces signed up to be loyal to Ireland in an Irish Army. Most of the servicemen are from Britain itself, unlike the PSNI, they only serve in N.I. on a rotational basis as they would in Afghanistan or Germany or Cyprus etc. and so you couldn't just tell them they had no chair when the music stopped.

Yes no doubt the value of bases would be included in the financial settlement, but just as empty shells, you wouldn't be talking about vehicles or IT and comms, they are all proprietary and highly secure and would return to Britain.

All those points are well made. I think that there may be the possibility of there being Irishmen in the British military who would happily serve in the PDF if we took defence seriously in this country.

sparky42

Lord Fairlord wrote: »

All those points are well made. I think that there may be the possibility of there being Irishmen in the British military who would happily serve in the PDF if we took defence seriously in this country.

Depends I suppose on many factors, like are we just funding Dfence better or are we using it more internationally? Also was it just the limited numbers that meant the Irish joined the UK Forces or was it other reasons?

Lord Fairlord

sparky42 wrote: »

Depends I suppose on many factors, like are we just funding Dfence better or are we using it more internationally? Also was it just the limited numbers that meant the Irish joined the UK Forces or was it other reasons?

I'd argue for the former; other than possibly helping more with peace keeping/enforcement abroad, a country our size shouldn't get involved in adventures (and most adventures this century have been done more harm than good). Acquiring aircraft and ships suitable for delivering everything that we'd need for peace keeping operations abroad would be a good idea IMO.
I suspect that opportunity and perhaps adventure are other reasons.

Maoltuile

Lord Fairlord wrote: »

What if any, would Northern Ireland's share of the UK's military be if Irish reunification were to occur?
It has occurred to me that if reunification were to happen, NI's share in certain military assets might be forfeited in return for a forfeiting of debt etc. Nonetheless it might be an interesting excerise.

Notably, the Provisional Government (who acted under and with the authority of the UK) were given some limited British arms, but I don't believe the Free State were. Ceratinly no transfer of tanks, warships or aeroplanes.

Maoltuile

Lord Fairlord wrote: »

I think that there may be the possibility of there being Irishmen in the British military who would happily serve in the PDF if we took defence seriously in this country.

We don't really want or need them. The recruitment issues around the PDF which cause (non-loyalist) people to go join the BA are mostly around the unrealistic and counterproductive entrance standards, and the lack of good pay and conditions thereafter.