Creche - Change of terms and conditions

leinster93

Hi folks,

Just looking for some advice here. Our creche have changed the terms and conditions due to COVID19 where they intend on taking the temperature of the kids twice a day and if any child has a temperature above 38 they have to be picked and kept at home for 48 hours. From expererience with my three kids between teething and what not, parents will have to take many more days off as pre covid19.
My question is, now that new terms and conditions have been introduced am I entitled to just walk awalk with my deposit without giving 60 days notice as stipulated in the original contract. As I understand, the original contract has been broken broken but am wondering what other peoples views are on it. P.S there are more terms added now but wot go into it now...

Peregrinus

"Frustration of contract" is the term for the principles that apply here.

The addition of new terms like the temperature rules in response to the pandemic is probably not a breach of contract and doesn't in itself entitle you to treat the contract as repudiated.

But if the circumstances within which the contract is to be performed have changed so radically, and in a way not foreseen by the parties when they made the contract, that performance is no longer possible or no longer makes any sense, then the contract is said to be frustrated. The result is that neither party is obliged to continue to perform its side of the bargain; they don't have to provide creche places, and you don't have to pay for them. You could arguably recover your deposit on the grounds that it would unjustly enrich them to allow them to keep it.

But frustration is a a very high bar, and in the circumstances you describe the creche providers will argue very strongly that the contract has not been frustrated. They are still able to provide creche places and are still providing them and (I'm guessing) many parents are taking them up even if you are not. So the contract has not been frustrated; you just no longer want the service because, in pandemic conditions where kids with temperatures cannot remain at the creche, the service it offers no longer meets your needs. They'll say that that does not entitle you to the return of your deposit.

Howver they might agree to the return of your deposit if demand for creche places is high and if they can immediately fill the place that you give up.

All of this, of course, assumes that you do want to give up the place, and that you have alternative and more suitable childcare arrangements lined up.

Lenar3556

leinster93 wrote: »

Hi folks,

Just looking for some advice here. Our creche have changed the terms and conditions due to COVID19 where they intend on taking the temperature of the kids twice a day and if any child has a temperature above 38 they have to be picked and kept at home for 48 hours. From expererience with my three kids between teething and what not, parents will have to take many more days off as pre covid19.
My question is, now that new terms and conditions have been introduced am I entitled to just walk awalk with my deposit without giving 60 days notice as stipulated in the original contract. As I understand, the original contract has been broken broken but am wondering what other peoples views are on it. P.S there are more terms added now but wot go into it now...

Agree with Peregrinus.

Like many businesses creche operators are finding themselves in a difficult position at present, and have been issued with very detailed additional procedures by the Dept. Children and Youth Affairs in reopening.

However routine temperature screening of children in childcare settings is not one of these measures, it’s not currently recommended by the department.

Regarding the keeping the child home for 48 hours if a fever is detected, you will probably find this always formed part of their policies and procedures. Covid still represents a serious public health risk, and having regard to the manner in which crèches are to return, the index of suspicion needs to be high. Isolation of a child displaying symptoms of fever is very necessary.

lunamoon

I've never come across a creche who didn't already have this policy in place? It's pretty standard that if your child has a temperature they are not allowed back for 48hours.

leinster93

Thanks for the replies. Very interesting to say the least. We're not new in the way the creche have done things over the last three years. Babies have temperatures due to teething or a bug or for whatever reason and usually these last a number of hours. We had to sign a form for the creche to be given Nurofen or calpol in such circumstances. Now, with vivid any sign of a temperature and the parent has to come and collect.

Now I'm no expert on covid but I was of the understanding that babies could not be carriers of the disease because their body havd not developed the cells with which are required for the corona virus to attach to.


Now, with Covid new stipulations have been introduced and whereby us the parents have difficulty complying with these new terms it makes sense to say the contract has been frustrated. It will be interesting to see what the response is when we ask for the deposit back....

Glenbhoy

leinster93 wrote: »

Now I'm no expert on covid but I was of the understanding that babies could not be carriers of the disease because their body havd not developed the cells with which are required for the corona virus to attach to.

Indeed you're not an expert, and even if you were, chances are you'd be none the wiser (save that you'd know that a small number of children have fallen victim to the disease). The experts don't know how the virus affects children, if they're carriers, if they spread the disease more, less or the same as everyone else, these are all unanswered questions thaf only time can clarify for us all. For now, the creche is taking reasonable precautions, i would imagine with the apparent scarcity of places available, they should + refund your deposit, but it might be an idea to give your notice now and use the next 2 months as a trial period to see how it works for you?

leinster93

Thanks. Have made alternative arrangements.
Just today the government issued a policy statement that there will be no social distancing for kids in primary schools up to the age of 8...

GreeBo

Temps are normal in creches, but any temp that didn't respond to drugs always resulted in the child being taken home.

We have just been informed by our crèche that kids need to stay home for 2 weeks in the event of any temp, so count yourself lucky!

Seems like a handy way for them to cut down on numbers and still get paid.

leinster93

GreeBo wrote: »

Temps are normal in creches, but any temp that didn't respond to drugs always resulted in the child being taken home.

We have just been informed by our crèche that kids need to stay home for 2 weeks in the event of any temp, so count yourself lucky!

Seems like a handy way for them to cut down on numbers and still get paid.

Crikee... that's just ridiculous and unsustainable.

Mrs OBumble

It's not only about Covid.

There are lots of other diseases they have to prevent spread of too. Fever is an excellent indicator of disease.

Carawaystick

If you wanted to play hardball, you could always ask for the calibration certificate for the thermometer used to detect a 38 or higher temp

Darc19

By doing this your own child is being protected - seems you haven't seen it from this angle.

Kids are notorious for picking up illnesses from other kids and then bringing them home.

With creches and schools having a far higher standard of sanitization and sending those with temperatures home (schools will be doing it too) there will be far less illness.

Actually the fact that you think it is fine to leave a child with a high temperature in an enclosed environment spreading whatever ailments they have is rather selfish.

DesignerDublin

Wow, come winter they may have an empty creche!
Are creches actually taking temperatures every day? Twice a day?

My youngest of three is just starting primary school(hopefully!) next month so I opted not to send him back to his creche and instead the three kids are in an afterschool together. In their official policy/response plan routine temperature testing is not required for staff or children.