Loophole or no loophole (N1 SUV)

paul7g

I have been considering buying a jeep / SUV for my business, and I’ve had a look at a few commercial 2 seat Defenders.

A friend is advising me against one because they are not a heavy drive, and he is advising me to get a N1 Range Rover Sport with 5 seats.

I’ve explained to him, that it will be a business vehicle for work use, and that I would have to pay high BIK if it had back seats.

He is adamant that you can get several N1 5 seater jeeps from one particular SUV dealer. I won’t mention the name of the garage as I think it is against the forum rules and policies, however he said they specialise in turning any jeep into a fully legal N1 jeep with 5 seats.

He said they must import the jeep first, and then they work their magic, but all is 100% above board with the revenue.

My account thinks otherwise, however a relation has said you can do it. I don’t want to explore that option until I’m 100% sure it is legal.

Can anyone here advise on this. Apologies if it has been discussed at length before.

TrailerBob

There are about 5 vehicles that actually conform to the rules for 5 seat commercial (not pick-ups). The rules relate to the size of the rear aperture opening, and the length of the loadspace in relation to wheelbase. The Landcruiser, Discovery & Pajero qualify, and have been offered new in N1 spec.. but not many more. Certainly not the RR Sport, or X5 etc.. This hasn't stopped them from being converted and signed off by an engineer employed by the conversion company based along one of our National Primary roads in the Midlands.. it's both legal and not legal if you get me, as revenue and Motor tax are willing to accept the engineer's report despite the vehicle clearly not conforming to the specs if checked.

paul7g

TrailerBob wrote: »

There are about 5 vehicles that actually conform to the rules for 5 seat commercial (not pick-ups). The rules relate to the size of the rear aperture opening, and the length of the loadspace in relation to wheelbase. The Landcruiser, Discovery & Pajero qualify, and have been offered new in N1 spec.. but not many more. Certainly not the RR Sport, or X5 etc.. This hasn't stopped them from being converted and signed off by an engineer employed by the conversion company based along one of our National Primary roads in the Midlands.. it's both legal and not legal if you get me, as revenue and Motor tax are willing to accept the engineer's report despite the vehicle clearly not conforming to the specs if checked.

Thanks Bob. People seem to have different opinions on it.

It’s strange that there isn’t a clear piece of legislation confirming this.

The garage are 100% adamant it is legal and have sold 100s to directors of companies in the last year alone.

Wishbone Ash

paul7g wrote: »

...Can anyone here advise on this..

Why not contact Revenue and ask them. Much more effective than bar stool experts.

Lemsiper

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Why not contact Revenue and ask them. Much more effective than bar stool experts.

This. Would be interested to hear the definitive answer.

TrailerBob

Lemsiper wrote: »

This. Would be interested to hear the definitive answer.

My response is sort of a nod to the definitive answer, as I have previously checked this out, but I don't have the exact info to hand at the moment. Revenue will tell you for sure, but the list of genuine contenders is short.

paul7g

Lemsiper wrote: »

This. Would be interested to hear the definitive answer.

Best of luck to anyone who can get an answer from the revenue on anything... they will never put it in writing.

R.O.R

Regardless of whether you can still convert to N1 or not, a 5 seat commercial will be subject to passenger rates of BIK as it isn't a van by Revenue's definition.

paul7g

R.O.R wrote: »

Regardless of whether you can still convert to N1 or not, a 5 seat commercial will be subject to passenger rates of BIK as it isn't a van by Revenue's definition.

That was my thought too, but many seem to think different.

Homer

R.O.R wrote: »

Regardless of whether you can still convert to N1 or not, a 5 seat commercial will be subject to passenger rates of BIK as it isn't a van by Revenue's definition.

^^^^^^ This is something overlooked by some, and not declared in a lot of cases! I looked into this and decided against it and simply claimed mileage/expenses and bought whatever commercial I wanted. A 5 seat commercial purchased through my company would have incurred a 30% of OMSP (I think thats the rate) BIK penalty!

R.O.R

paul7g wrote: »

That was my thought too, but many seem to think different.

Many are wrong then.

Only vans, as per the Revenue definition of a van, has the 5% flat rate of BIK applied.

Any vehicle with either seats or windows behind the driver is not a van.

Gumbo

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Why not contact Revenue and ask them. Much more effective than bar stool experts.

Not many bar stool experts lately though.
Might be best to ask on an internet discussion forum where you may get some guidance and answers.

paul7g

R.O.R wrote: »

Many are wrong then.

Only vans, as per the Revenue definition of a van, has the 5% flat rate of BIK applied.

Any vehicle with either seats or windows behind the driver is not a van.

Many might be wrong... however it seems one particular garage is selling a lot of high end jeeps with 5 seats and guaranteeing their customers that they are 100% above board in terms of qualifying as an N1 with just 5% BIK.

return guide

Homer wrote: »

^^^^^^ This is something overlooked by some, and not declared in a lot of cases! I looked into this and decided against it and simply claimed mileage/expenses and bought whatever commercial I wanted. A 5 seat commercial purchased through my company would have incurred a 30% of OMSP (I think thats the rate) BIK penalty!

Being in the building game I know of many people who have gone down this line. Not one has declared nor has one been penalised for not declaring as part of an audit. I know of one that was audited and the BIK issue was overlooked as he had more serious issues.
I thought about it myself but with my luck I would be the first person i know to be stung with a bill for BIK.

R.O.R

paul7g wrote: »

Many might be wrong... however it seems one particular garage is selling a lot of high end jeeps with 5 seats and guaranteeing their customers that they are 100% above board in terms of qualifying as an N1 with just 5% BIK.

They may be above board for N1 classification to enable VAT reclaim and commercial tax, but anyone who takes tax advice from a car salesman is an idiot.

frozenfrozen

what happens if you are in a crash?

R.O.R

frozenfrozen wrote: »

what happens if you are in a crash?

Generally, the insurance companies deal with the after effects

Eric Cartman

if you're a sole trader the BIK matters not, same as if its a 'pool car' although revenue have their eye on that one at present.

As to what can be converted , since the new laser measurement rules came in theres only the Touareg, land cruiser, full size Range Rover and discovery 4 making it as N1, and even with the full size Range Rover a wicklow 4x4 dealer seems to be the only place thats managing to get those through, by whatever nepotism/laser miscalibration magic.

paul7g

Eric Cartman wrote: »

if you're a sole trader the BIK matters not, same as if its a 'pool car' although revenue have their eye on that one at present.

As to what can be converted , since the new laser measurement rules came in theres only the Touareg, land cruiser, full size Range Rover and discovery 4 making it as N1, and even with the full size Range Rover a wicklow 4x4 dealer seems to be the only place thats managing to get those through, by whatever nepotism/laser miscalibration magic.

Thanks. What do you mean by “get those through”. Is there an official very that comes with the car stating it is a legit N1?

Eric Cartman

paul7g wrote: »

Thanks. What do you mean by “get those through”. Is there an official very that comes with the car stating it is a legit N1?

you have to have a certificate of conformity done by an NSAI approved workshop, they have to laser measure dimensions and measure weights and ratios of passenger to cargo space, if it all passes muster, you can bring that to a vrt centre on import and have the vehicle registered as an N1 crewcab.

The biggest hurdle is usually the 12800cm2 boot/load space opening. Only the vehicles I have indicated above actually meet that however the Range Rover full size is questionable, some places are able to get that figure, some others it stops short at 12650cm2, in the old days it was 'wonky measuring tape' logic got it through, not with the laser equipment though. But one dealer has managed it and won't tell anyone else how.

there are some charlatans advertising on done deal that they can get conversions done by doing 2 steps, step 1 you convert it to a 2 seat commercial, pay the vrt, tax and test it and come back 6 months later to have the rear seats reinstalled and then change the log book to represent 5 seats. This was pulled a few times, revenue got real wise to it and closed that one off, these people will still say they can do it, you come back after 6 months and its 'sorry pal, the law changes, no dice for you'

Wildly Boaring

As above N1 has nothing to do with BIK

2 completely different issues.

Revenue are clear on this for BIK
A van for 5% BIK has no seats behind the driver.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-people/benefit-in-kind-for-employers/private-use-of-company-vans/index.aspx

From the link (very clear)

A van is a vehicle which:

is made solely or mainly for the transport of goods

has a roofed area behind the driver’s seat

has no side windows or seating fitted in the roofed area.

Marcusm

paul7g wrote: »

Thanks Bob. People seem to have different opinions on it.

It’s strange that there isn’t a clear piece of legislation confirming this.

The garage are 100% adamant it is legal and have sold 100s to directors of companies in the last year alone.

The motor tax classification is not relevant to the BIK treatment. I assume that is the PC garage. A friend who runs an accounting firm has had numerous client disagreements as a result of tax advice being provided by a secondhand car salesman. It is not worth the fee which is not paid for it, ie it is a worthless assertion.

kirving

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The biggest hurdle is usually the 12800cm2 boot/load space opening. Only the vehicles I have indicated above actually meet that however the Range Rover full size is questionable, some places are able to get that figure, some others it stops short at 12650cm2, in the old days it was 'wonky measuring tape' logic got it through, not with the laser equipment though. But one dealer has managed it and won't tell anyone else how.

Seems absolutely bananas to me that Revenue can't just get a figure from the manufacturer, and rely on independent workshops to do it.

12,650cm² is only 1.1% away from 12,800cm².

What type of laser device is used? A 3d scanner? Put the scanner in the freezer or warm it up and you could easily have 1.1% error either way. Scanner is calibrated by NSAI, readings are recorded for audit, but measurement value bid wrong.

Eric Cartman

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Seems absolutely bananas to me that Revenue can't just get a figure from the manufacturer, and rely on independent workshops to do it.

12,650cm² is only 1.1% away from 12,800cm².

What type of laser device is used? A 3d scanner? Put the scanner in the freezer or warm it up and you could easily have 1.1% error either way. Scanner is calibrated by NSAI, readings are recorded for audit, but measurement value bid wrong.

this is how close we're talking for that specific car, run the test again and again until it gives you the right number, no idea what model scanner but its madness.

California Dreamer

Changing to a 5 seater crew cab from a 7 seater incurs 13.3% instead of the 30% rate. Hence the attraction. The road tax is only a bonus.

Eric Cartman

California Dreamer wrote: »

Changing to a 5 seater crew cab from a 7 seater incurs 13.3% instead of the 30% rate. Hence the attraction. The road tax is only a bonus.

on something full sized like a Range Rover you're talking saving 10-20k in vrt, and 2000 euro a year in tax. over 5 years of ownership a 250 quid bit of paper can save you basically the price of the car.

knifey_spoonie

Crewcab jeeps are all but gone for registration, The rules were changed to state the cargo area must NOT be under the same roof as the seated area.

So the only vehicles that qualify for 13.3% VRT are Pickup crewcabs like the Ranger, Hilux, Amarok

Toyota still have a Landcruiser 5 Seat Business but the VRT has increased from €7k to €23K, Nothing else changes you can still Tax the vehicle commercially and claim the VAT content.

When it comes to BIK, Crewcabs of any sort are not classified as vans, they are passenger vehicles and you should pay BIK as applicable.

paul7g

Ok, I’m not concerned about Motor Tax rates. What I am concerned about is the difference in BIK.

5% or 30%

But 5% seems to refer to a van? If a RR Vogue was converted to a 2 seat (and left a 2 seat), does it then qualify for 5% BIK?

Eric Cartman

paul7g wrote: »

Ok, I’m not concerned about Motor Tax rates. What I am concerned about is the difference in BIK.

5% or 30%

But 5% seems to refer to a van? If a RR Vogue was converted to a 2 seat (and left a 2 seat), does it then qualify for 5% BIK?

yes , no seats behind the driver is 5% . Any seats behind and its 30% , keep in mind how long you want to keep the vehicle though, the resale value on a 2 seat Range Rover would be significantly lower than a crew cab, it might be cheaper to pay the BIK.

gearoidol

Eric Cartman wrote: »

yes , no seats behind the driver is 5% . Any seats behind and its 30% , keep in mind how long you want to keep the vehicle though, the resale value on a 2 seat Range Rover would be significantly lower than a crew cab, it might be cheaper to pay the BIK.

In relation to the touareg you mentioned that qualifies , i wasn't aware you could get the new 3rd gen version as N1. I know you can get them as 2 seat commercial i bought one last July. Would you have a link to a 201 N1 on carzone or similar ?

Eric Cartman

gearoidol wrote: »

In relation to the touareg you mentioned that qualifies , i wasn't aware you could get the new 3rd gen version as N1. I know you can get them as 2 seat commercial i bought one last July. Would you have a link to a 201 N1 on carzone or similar ?

Ohh the new one mustnt qualify so... the model up to 2016 did.

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Ohh the new one mustnt qualify so... the model up to 2016 did.

I checked PC and he has none at the moment anyway but he has plenty more that shouldn't qualify though so I assume they will have new model Touaregs too at some point as 5 seat N1.

galwaytt

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Seems absolutely bananas to me that Revenue can't just get a figure from the manufacturer, and rely on independent workshops to do it.

12,650cm² is only 1.1% away from 12,800cm².

What type of laser device is used? A 3d scanner? Put the scanner in the freezer or warm it up and you could easily have 1.1% error either way. Scanner is calibrated by NSAI, readings are recorded for audit, but measurement value bid wrong.

Ho hum - how much volume does removing 'door cards' add, I wonder...

paul7g

Out of my price range, but this G350 seems to have a very very large boot (see 8th photo).

Could these potentially qualify in terms of space, or is the rule of thumb still IF it has back seats, it doesn't matter what size the space is?

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/202006069852866?radius=1500&postcode=e145hu&model=G%20CLASS&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=Used&advertising-location=at_cars&make=MERCEDES-BENZ&sort=relevance&year-from=2014&page=1

colm_mcm

I thought crewcabs needed to have a separate roof/area for the cargo now

mickdw

galwaytt wrote: »

Ho hum - how much volume does removing 'door cards' add, I wonder...

Its area. I was looking at a photo of a rear tailgate of a range rover and there is certainly something to be gained at the sides towards the top by sacrificing a seal and grinding it out to be paper thin where it fits over a seam.
The different between 12650 and 12850 is circa 5mm all around so small things could make a difference.
To be honest, the area of the opening is a subjective thing as its not in a single plain.
A better test would be that it must take a box of certain dimension.

TrailerBob

paul7g wrote: »

Out of my price range, but this G350 seems to have a very very large boot (see 8th photo).

Could these potentially qualify in terms of space, or is the rule of thumb still IF it has back seats, it doesn't matter what size the space is?

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/202006069852866?radius=1500&postcode=e145hu&model=G%20CLASS&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=Used&advertising-location=at_cars&make=MERCEDES-BENZ&sort=relevance&year-from=2014&page=1

The G class would never have qualified due to the small tail door. Like many things, the entire category was 'redefined' by lads converting X5s and RR Sports..

Now, if you need a crewcan to carry lads to a job, get a light truck. I'd love to be able to crewcab my landcruiser to be able to bring my young son in it, but I'm a bit too straight laced to be at that.

colm_mcm

colm_mcm wrote: »

I thought crewcabs needed to have a separate roof/area for the cargo now

The fact one prominent dealer is still importing and selling them, including ones that never qualified would indicate otherwise.

TrailerBob wrote: »

the entire category was 'redefined' by lads converting X5s and RR Sports..

Both readily available in N1 from the above mentioned dealer.

TrailerBob

Just because he's doing it, doesn't mean it's properly legal. Just means he has an NSAI engineer on the books probably

TrailerBob

TrailerBob wrote: »

Just because he's doing it, doesn't mean it's properly legal. Just means he has an NSAI engineer on the books probably

I can’t see someone so prominent getting away with it unless he has a way that can’t be challenged. It’s not some naas road Houdini doing it like.

TrailerBob

I would question it as to why more garages are not doing it if it's 100% above board. Having said that, I'm not in the motor industry so maybe there's a reason. I never understood how a vehicle that could only ever be sold in 5 seat configuration could be classed as a crewcab. Ford did it with the Mk1 Kuga by deleting The centre seatbelt and calling it a 4 seater. At least the landcruiser and discovery were 7 seaters with a row removed. Even at that, ironically the bigger landcruiser (amazon) needed a box welded into the floor to have the required loadspace, the 90 series is taller inside, so was ok. It was always anodd one from the beginning, and I think was more an exploitation of the vague wording of the definition of crewcab work vehicle

colm_mcm

The Amazon/VX was meeting a whole different set of requirements back in the day. You wouldn’t have gotten a crewcab Colorado back then IIRC.
The spare wheel well in the Amazon became the load space basically.

paul7g

Cataleya Hallowed Speculator wrote: »

I can’t see someone so prominent getting away with it unless he has a way that can’t be challenged. It’s not some naas road Houdini doing it like.

Yes, my exact thoughts.

Most of the Jeeps are €100,000+ so I’m sure it would be clamped down on if it was not legal.

The question is, are you covered by the paperwork and certifications they give you with the jeep, or are you still at the mercy of the Revenue.

Marcusm

paul7g wrote: »

Yes, my exact thoughts.

Most of the Jeeps are €100,000+ so I’m sure it would be clamped down on if it was not legal.

The question is, are you covered by the paperwork and certifications they give you with the jeep, or are you still at the mercy of the Revenue.

There is a distinction between the N1 classification which I s the subject of the measurement discussion and the BIK answer. Which is it that concerns you? If it is the BIK classification then only a fool would Rey on assertions from a secondhand car salesman. Ask you tax or business adviser to find out the answer for you. Hopefully they will have adequate professional indemnity insurance if they advise you it is not a car for BIK purposes. You would have no such avenue of redress with the car salesman.

Eric Cartman

Cataleya Hallowed Speculator wrote: »

I can’t see someone so prominent getting away with it unless he has a way that can’t be challenged. It’s not some naas road Houdini doing it like.

well him converting the Bentley bentega is what caused the restrictions to tighten up but somehow it just ruined it on everyone else.