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TD Ministerial Pensions and working

  • 19-06-2020 11:45am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 12


    Is there someone on this forum, please, who can clarify how a Dáil Ministerial pension works? Is a TD allowed to earn other work monies, for example from their business while receiving a Dáil pension? It is my understanding that they can earn other income whilst on a Dáil pension but things may have changed over the years. Can someone please clarify? Thanks.


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,860 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    EoghanMag wrote: »
    Is there someone on this forum, please, who can clarify how a Dáil Ministerial pension works? Is a TD allowed to earn other work monies, for example from their business while receiving a Dáil pension? It is my understanding that they can earn other income whilst on a Dáil pension but things may have changed over the years. Can someone please clarify? Thanks.

    Anybody receiving a work pension can have as many other jobs as they like.

    My father has a PS pension, and has several employments, other incomes, other pensions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,860 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    A retired TD can have as many jobs or other incomes as they like.

    Just like any retired person.

    There are plenty of people receiving work pensions who have other jobs.


    NOTE: if you are receiving a PS pension, then there may be restrictions on how much you earn in a different PS job.

    Example: a retired teacher, with a teacher's pension, going back to teach casually / part-time, or into some other role paid for by DoE, there may be restrictions on that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12 EoghanMag


    Thank you for your replies. So if what you say is correct then why is a person on invalidity pension in Ireland refused the right to earn money?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,860 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    IP is not means-tested.

    You could be unable to work, be receiving IP, and yet have other incomes.


    One of the conditions of IP is that you are unable to work:

    "Have been incapable of work for at least 12 months and be likely to be incapable of work for at least another 12 months (you may have been getting Illness Benefit or Disability Allowance during that time)
    Or

    Be permanently incapable of work (in certain cases of very serious illness or disability, you can transfer directly from another social welfare payment or from your job to Invalidity Pension)."


    So you can't get IP and do full-time normal work, obviously.

    But you can have several other incomes while you receive IP, for example pensions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12 EoghanMag


    It appears to me like an abuse of human rights that a person on invalidity pension cannot work. No-one goes onto an invalidity pension unless they really need to and because they cannot survive on the pittance that illness benefit provides. There are extra benefits that IP provides that really ease the burden. I am aware of an actor who was entitled to go on an IP but the second he did so the was told he was not allowed to act anymore. If a person lives for their passion and that passion is then denied by the state, is this not abuse?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,222 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    A person on Invalidity Pension is usually awarded that as a consequence of their being unfit or unable to undertake gainful employment.

    Invalidity Pension can not nor should it be equated with an employment pension.
    They are very different, and one is a employer/employee investment vehicle designed to generate an income on retirement from a specific employment.
    The other is a social insurance payment designed to protect people unable to continue to work due to Invalidity or incapacity.

    As an Invalidity Pension recipient, one can move to partial incapacity benefit to undertake a degree of paid work if they are able.
    There is also the benefit of free travel, household benefits package(if eligible) and other supports that are often restricted to social welfare recipients.

    In short, you are not comparing like with like and are focusing on "pension" having the same meaning in both instances.

    I say the above as a recipient of Invalidity Pension btw.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,447 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    EoghanMag wrote: »
    If a person lives for their passion and that passion is then denied by the state, is this not abuse?

    They can give up the pension and have zero restrictions, so no.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12 EoghanMag


    banie01 thank you for your input. So what do you make of the fact that people on IP are not entitled to do unpaid volunteer 'work' and if the department finds out they are threatened with losing their IP for 'working'? Once again this is another case I am aware of and the person in question feels they are being tormented and abused by the state?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12 EoghanMag


    L1011 wrote: »
    They can give up the pension and have zero restrictions, so no.


    So they go back to their passion and starve to death in doing so? That is abuse.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,447 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    EoghanMag wrote: »
    and the person in question feels they are being tormented and abused by the state?

    The person in question is paranoid and should seek help.
    EoghanMag wrote: »
    So they go back to their passion and starve to death in doing so? That is abuse.

    If they can work, they don't qualify for IP

    If they get IP, they can't work

    There is no "abuse" here.

    banie01 explains the different benefits available for people who are able to do some work but not full time work.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,806 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    EoghanMag wrote: »
    banie01 thank you for your input. So what do you make of the fact that people on IP are not entitled to do unpaid volunteer 'work' and if the department finds out they are threatened with losing their IP for 'working'? Once again this is another case I am aware of and the person in question feels they are being tormented and abused by the state?

    Are they able to work, whether in a voluntary or paid capacity?

    If so, they are ineligible for invalidity pension.

    It isn't for people who don't want to work, it is for people who are genuinely unable to work. So, for example if you can't work for money in Tesco as a shop assistant, you can't work unpaid in a charity shop as a shop assistant.

    Similarly, if you cannot work as a paid care assistant in the HSE, you can't work as a volunteer care assistant in your local community.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    EoghanMag wrote: »
    banie01 thank you for your input. So what do you make of the fact that people on IP are not entitled to do unpaid volunteer 'work' and if the department finds out they are threatened with losing their IP for 'working'? Once again this is another case I am aware of and the person in question feels they are being tormented and abused by the state?

    You can do voluntary work. “If you are getting certain disability payments you may be allowed to work or attend training. People getting Illness Benefit and Invalidity Pension cannot work (except for unpaid voluntary work). They must transfer to the Partial Capacity Benefit scheme if they wish to work.“
    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/social_welfare_payments_and_work/disability_payments_and_work.html


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,447 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    You can do voluntary work. “If you are getting certain disability payments you may be allowed to work or attend training. People getting Illness Benefit and Invalidity Pension cannot work (except for unpaid voluntary work). They must transfer to the Partial Capacity Benefit scheme if they wish to work.“
    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/social_welfare_payments_and_work/disability_payments_and_work.html

    With written permission; which I doubt is given for most volunteer work as most volunteer work has direct paid equivalents.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    L1011 wrote: »
    With written permission; which I doubt is given for most volunteer work as most volunteer work has direct paid equivalents.

    Indeed. I believe that the number of volunteer hours a week is fairly low. Around 3.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,222 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    EoghanMag wrote: »
    banie01 thank you for your input. So what do you make of the fact that people on IP are not entitled to do unpaid volunteer 'work' and if the department finds out they are threatened with losing their IP for 'working'? Once again this is another case I am aware of and the person in question feels they are being tormented and abused by the state?

    I've never had an issue with volunteer work, it's a phone call or email to the department to get the go ahead.

    I have also been afforded the opportunity to return to full-time education and again, that was a letter to the department, clearance issued and away I went.

    You need to clarify your issue.
    You have jumped from politician's collecting pension whilst working multiple jobs, to your friend not being allowed to work, to now your friend can't volunteer?

    The officers in the department that I have dealt with have all been very understanding and even handed.
    Your friend would best be advised to talk to them and lay out what they want to do, and take the genuinely decent advice they offer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12 EoghanMag


    So what category of work does 'having a hobby' fall into? This is the level it comes down to, in one case a hobby is 'work' in another it is not and thus goes the doublespeak and forked tongues of Ireland. (No - to be clear I am not referring to the posters on this thread.) If I am on a Ministerial pension I can still be paid legally as a consultant but if I sit in a Community Radio station and give advice on air when I have an IP I am somehow breaking a law?

    I think the IP Pension explanation given here is a pandering to the abuse of those most in need in Ireland. One law for the rich and one for the poorest of poor.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,447 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    EoghanMag wrote: »
    So what category of work does 'having a hobby' fall into? This is the level it comes down to, in one case a hobby is 'work' in another it is not and thus goes the doublespeak and forked tongues of Ireland. (No - to be clear I am not referring to the posters on this thread.) If I am on a Ministerial pension I can still be paid legally as a consultant but if I sit in a Community Radio station and give advice on air when I have an IP I am somehow breaking a law?

    I think the IP Pension explanation given here is a pandering to the abuse of those most in need in Ireland. One law for the rich and one for the poorest of poor.

    Has this friend now become you?

    There are paid jobs in radio presenting. If you can do it for free you can do it for money

    If you look for permission with the attitude shown on this thread so far, you won't get it


  • Registered Users Posts: 12 EoghanMag


    No I have not delved into my own situation. I know of several different people who are in such a situation. Is understanding and pity totally devoid in politics now?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,447 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    EoghanMag wrote: »
    No I have not delved into my own situation. I know of several different people who are in such a situation. Is understanding and pity totally devoid in politics now?

    The friend is the one who needs to understand the scheme they're on, it's rules and what alternatives there are. And seek help for the paranoia


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    EoghanMag wrote: »
    No I have not delved into my own situation. I know of several different people who are in such a situation. Is understanding and pity totally devoid in politics now?


    I don't have pity for someone who is claiming support from the taxpayer for being unable to work while actually being able to work.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12 EoghanMag


    L1011 wrote: »
    The friend is the one who needs to understand the scheme they're on, it's rules and what alternatives there are. And seek help for the paranoia


    To clarify I am not talking of one single person.



    So does a TD on a MP have to get permission to consult? I doubt it. Therefore the have and have-nots have very different rules. What should one do to make the rules better?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12 EoghanMag


    GarIT wrote: »
    I don't have pity for someone who is claiming support from the taxpayer for being unable to work while actually being able to work.


    Not work but a hobby that the department is trying to define as 'work'. Just because your job was to watch over children all day, when you retire from the job should you be banned from watching children play football? This is the level of pettiness I am talking of. No these people are not working or earning black market money. You think they should be denied basic rights?


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,222 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    EoghanMag wrote: »
    To clarify I am not talking of one single person.



    So does a TD on a MP have to get permission to consult? I doubt it. Therefore the have and have-nots have very different rules. What should one do to make the rules better?

    Am I to be a "Have" then?

    Your friend would do well to engage with the department before undertaking aspects of their hobby that could result in their earning, or volunteering that could be construed as work.

    The scheme is laid out for a specific purpose, it could certainly do better in certain aspects but if you engage with the department, I from personal experience have found them eminently helpful.

    It's an instance of seeking permission rather than act then apologize being far more fortuitous.

    Your friend should also take advantage of the medical card to seek chip removal surgery as that shoulder must be killing him at this point.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12 EoghanMag


    banie01 wrote: »
    Am I to be a "Have" then?

    Your friend would do well to engage with the department before undertaking aspects of their hobby that could result in their earning, or volunteering that could be construed as work.

    The scheme is laid out for a specific purpose, it could certainly do better in certain aspects but if you engage with the department, I from personal experience have found them eminently helpful.

    It's an instance of seeking permission rather than act then apologize being far more fortuitous.

    Your friend should also take advantage of the medical card to seek chip removal surgery as that shoulder must be killing him at this point.


    Do you enjoy cruelty towards others?


    I despair for those who play proxy politics and trample the less fortunate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    EoghanMag wrote: »
    Not work but a hobby that the department is trying to define as 'work'. Just because your job was to watch over children all day, when you retire from the job should you be banned from watching children play football? This is the level of pettiness I am talking of. No these people are not working or earning black market money. You think they should be denied basic rights?


    It's not retiring though, it's declaring yourself too sick to work. If you are capable of volunteering you are capable getting paid for what you volunteer at. If you can do radio as a hobby you aren't too sick to do radio as a job which you are claiming when you declare youreself too sick to the point of bing physically incapable of work.


    Unless you have a diagnosed crippling phobia of earning a living you can't be incapable of doing something for money but capable of doing it for free.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,222 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    EoghanMag wrote: »
    Do you enjoy cruelty towards others?


    I despair for those who play proxy politics and trample the less fortunate.

    Not at all, but you have started a thread claiming an equivalence between a social insurance payment and a ministerial or employment pension.

    Its hyperbolic nonsense and does noone in receipt of such a payment any credit.

    An actual equivalence would be to draw a comparison between Invalidity pension and an Income protection scheme such as those administered by Irish Life.
    Try and explain being fit enough to engage in a hobby but not fit enough to work to any of their inspectors/assessors.
    I had such a scheme, it hasnt paid me a penny as while the Department deems me unfit for full-time employment, Irish life reckon I can handily manage 15hrs per week.....
    So my claim was denied and then further denied on appeal and upheld by the ombudsman.

    You have tried to equate 2 totally different schemes on the basis of the word "pension" they are not the same thing.
    An employment pension accrues from investment and an invalidity pension is solely to be regarded as a form of income protection insurance.


    That your friend is still fit enough to undertake their "passion" is fantastic.
    The fact remains, that if they are fit enough to undertake it as a job!
    They may well not be unfit enough to continue on an invalidity pension and a move to partial capacity benefit may be more appropriate for them.

    Or is it that your friend wnats to retain all the benefits that accrue to someone unable to work, whilst still undertaking a degree of work?
    But only such work as relates to their "passion"?


    You obviously don't like the answer's you have goten here, but and i say this as a recipient of IP.
    If you play straight with the department they will generally return the favour.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    EoghanMag wrote: »
    No I have not delved into my own situation. I know of several different people who are in such a situation. Is understanding and pity totally devoid in politics now?

    I work and will be retiring before the end of the year. With this in mind, I began volunteering, once a week for 3 hours. I’m not doing anyone out of a job. There are two other volunteers doing same number of hours. One is unemployed and the other on disability. They both had to get permission. They asked and it was granted. I intend continuing to volunteer when retired, mainly because I enjoy it. It’s totally different from working.

    My hobby, on the other hand is done in my own time.

    If permission isn’t being granted, there’s most likely a good reason for it.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,447 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    EoghanMag wrote: »
    So does a TD on a MP have to get permission to consult? I doubt it. Therefore the have and have-nots have very different rules. What should one do to make the rules better?

    An employment pension is totally different

    Invalidity Pension should probably be renamed to stop people making simplistic, ridiculous comparisons.


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