Defence - text from the tri-partite draft Programme for Government June 2020

Larbre34

Forgive any poor formatting, discuss!

Defence

Irish people take great pride in our Permanent Defence Forces and the men and women who serve this country with pride and distinction. Since first deploying, the Defence Forces have the longest unbroken record of overseas service with the United Nations of any country, during this time the nature of conflict has presented new challenges. We will continue this proud record and ensure that the Defence Forces are suitably resourced to partake in such service recognising the new challenges facing the global community.

Peacekeeping and humanitarian efforts are at the core of the international reputation of the Defence Forces. With climate change becoming an increasing security threat across the world and a signfactor in the incidences of war, famine, forced migration and disaster management, we recognise the vital role the Defence Forces have in addressing these challenges.

Commission on the Defence Forces

In order to meet the medium and longer term defence requirements of the State an independent Commission will be established. This Commission will undertake a comprehensive review which will
include the following matters:

• Arrangements for the effective defence of the country at land and sea.
• Structures for governance, joint command and control structures.
• The brigade structure.
• Pay and allowances and composition of the Defence Forces.
• Recruitment. retention and career progression.
• The contribution of the Reserve Defence Forces, including its legislation and Defence Forces regulations governing it and whether specialists from the RDF should be able to serve
overseas.

The Commission will contain a wide variety of expertise such as management, human resources, academia, law, public service, as well as members with external military expertise from countries similar in size to Ireland and also from states that like Ireland are non-aligned militarily. We will consult widely on the terms of reference for the Commission which will be established by end of 2020 with a mandate to report within twelve months.

The outcome of this review will remain grounded in a policy of active military neutrality and
participative multilateralism through the United Nations and European Union.

Upon completion of the Commissions work, a permanent pay review body will be established,
reflecting the unique nature of military service in the context of the public service. All
recommendations by the Commission or the successor body and their implementation must be consistent with national public sector wage policy.

Overseas operations and international co-operation

The Government will ensure that all overseas operations will be carried out in line with our position of military neutrality and will be subject to a triple lock of UN, Government and Dáil Eireann approval.

Ireland’s participation in PESCO projects will be maintained on an ‘opt-in’ basis, with contributions being entirely voluntary. Any projects undertaken within PESCO will be approved by Cabinet and Dáil Éireann.
The Government will not partake in projects which are not compatible with our policy of active military neutrality and non-membership of military alliances.
Within the context of the European Peace Facility Ireland will not be part of decision making or funding for lethal force weapons for non-peacekeeping purposes.

Additional actions

We will:
• Support the establishment of centres for retired members of the Defence Forces.
• Develop a new Institute for Peace Support and Leadership Training in the Curragh.
• Ensure that all enlisted members of the Defence Forces have the same access to healthcare as officers do currently.
• Amend the Organisation of Working Time Act bringing the Defence Forces within the scope of its provisions.

sparky42

Cover to go back to the 3 Brigade but not actually change anything to fully man said formations. As little extra money and resources as possible, and lets just forget that people and things can actually fly...

Larbre34

My fault there. A later corrected version of the text includes references to airspace etc

sparky42

Larbre34 wrote: »

My fault there. A later corrected version of the text includes references to airspace etc

Not sure it was your fault, their first version did clearly leave out airspace, which kind of shows you the level of attention they were giving the area of Defence.


Any word yet as to might be minister or whether it will be a full ministry?

Larbre34

No nothing in detail on the ministries, except 6 FF 6 FG and 3 Gr. I imagine the outcome of the fate of the full cabinet position for Children will dictate the other musical chairs.

We could see a return to the old combination of Defence & the Marine, post-Brexit sea fisheries will be a very busy and probably contentious brief.

roadmaster

Maybe they should consider closing all the old barracks and hand them over for new housing sites. The barracks our military took over where from a military that was an occupation army. Our defence forces are not an army of occupation. We should maybe consider building 6 modern purpose built bases with accommodation for there soldiers in strategic locations around the country

sparky42

roadmaster wrote: »

Maybe they should consider closing all the old barracks and hand them over for new housing sites. The barracks our military took over where from a military that was an occupation army. Our defence forces are not an army of occupation. We should maybe consider building 6 modern purpose built bases with accommodation for there soldiers in strategic locations around the country

Politics... Even if it happened given previous they wouldn't even bother to fund new bases.

roadmaster

sparky42 wrote: »

Politics... Even if it happened given previous they wouldn't even bother to fund new bases.

It just needs a good sales pitch explain the army are getting less based which will be cheaper to operate but leave out that they will be modern places of work which will help improve the defence forces as we all know the DOD dont like to do anything that would improve the defence forces

L1011

roadmaster wrote: »

Maybe they should consider closing all the old barracks and hand them over for new housing sites. The barracks our military took over where from a military that was an occupation army. Our defence forces are not an army of occupation. We should maybe consider building 6 modern purpose built bases with accommodation for there soldiers in strategic locations around the country

Only a select few would actually be any use for housing (Cathal Brugha, McKee, Collins, Sarsfield, Renmore - any others?) and a rake of the buildings are (or rapidly would be when out of military use) listed at all of those. And there are obvious reasons for retaining some capacity in cities.

Previous closures in Dublin have gone to other state uses with the exception of Clancy as the outlier for housing (unless I'm forgetting somewhere)
edit: well, there was Keogh/Richmond a hundred years ago!

sparky42

roadmaster wrote: »

It just needs a good sales pitch explain the army are getting less based which will be cheaper to operate but leave out that they will be modern places of work which will help improve the defence forces as we all know the DOD dont like to do anything that would improve the defence forces

Sure, at which point everyone whose losing their Barracks start complaining about how the local economy is going to be screwed and really they don't want anymore people moving in because of lack of services etc...

roadmaster

L1011 wrote: »

Only a select few would actually be any use for housing (Cathal Brugha, McKee, Collins, Sarsfield, Renmore - any others?) and a rake of the buildings are (or rapidly would be when out of military use) listed at all of those. And there are obvious reasons for retaining some capacity in cities.

Previous closures in Dublin have gone to other state uses with the exception of Clancy as the outlier for housing (unless I'm forgetting somewhere)
edit: well, there was Keogh/Richmond a hundred years ago!

Athlone, Galway are in a good location for houses and I would flatten them as there is nothing of any particular heritage about them and build houses. Build a new base along the M17 to serve Connaught and you could do the same in Munster with Sarsfield and Collins both are in prime housing locations. You could again build a new base of the M20 when It comes and it could serve Munster

roadmaster

sparky42 wrote: »

Sure, at which point everyone whose losing their Barracks start complaining about how the local economy is going to be screwed and really they don't want anymore people moving in because of lack of services etc...

Don't think it matters to much as defence doesn't seam to come in to the general publics mind and the ones it does are too little in numbers for the politicians to worry or care about

mikeym

Eamonn Ryan keeps harping on about using public lands for housing when there isnt enough public land to meet the demand.

Unless you close a barracks or two.

The Green Party dont give two hoots about Defence especially the Army.

Wasnt there an independent commission setup to investigate Pay & Conditions last year?

Yeah there was and they did nothing meaningful.

Nuttzz

Eamon Ryan made a video outside Cathal Brugha Barracks looking to turn it into a housing zone


https://twitter.com/eamonryan/status/970708205973237760

Larbre34

That video is two and a half years old.

Nuttzz

Larbre34 wrote: »

That video is two and a half years old.

So? you think he will have changed his mind some how?

Larbre34

Nuttzz wrote: »

So? you think he will have changed his mind some how?

Yes. I'd say within a few days he was warned off stunts like that. Haven't heard mention of it since.

sparky42

Larbre34 wrote: »

Yes. I'd say within a few days he was warned off stunts like that. Haven't heard mention of it since.

Given the "left" wing that the Greens have currently I wouldn't be so sure that if they go in that the topic doesn't come back around.

roadmaster

Last year I think it was planned to split up the department of justice and equality if I remember correctly. In the new government could we see the creation of a new minister and department along the lines of Defence & internal security which would bring the military and garda under one minister with a jnr minister for each organisation.?

sparky42

roadmaster wrote: »

Last year I think it was planned to split up the department of justice and equality if I remember correctly. In the new government could we see the creation of a new minister and department along the lines of Defence & internal security which would bring the military and garda under one minister with a jnr minister for each organisation.?

We've had that before, when it was Justice and Defence under Shatter, didn't seem very productive in that regard.

roadmaster

sparky42 wrote: »

We've had that before, when it was Justice and Defence under Shatter, didn't seem very productive in that regard.

That could be more a shatter issue than anything else

sparky42

roadmaster wrote: »

That could be more a shatter issue than anything else

True enough...

roadmaster

i hate to say it but it looks like FF is the defense forces only hope . We could see Senator Lisa Chambers as the Minister for state for defense which would be a help potentially with her background .

According to RTE we will have a Minister for Defence and the Gaeltacht . That's an usual mix

davetherave

roadmaster wrote: »

According to RTE we will have a Minister for Defence and the Gaeltacht . That's an usual mix

Those buachaillí in An Chead Cathlain, up to no good as usual. :pac:

Heraldoffreeent

roadmaster wrote: »

i hate to say it but it looks like FF is the defense forces only hope . We could see Senator Lisa Chambers as the Minister for state for defense which would be a help potentially with her background .

According to RTE we will have a Minister for Defence and the Gaeltacht . That's an usual mix

A senator would be an unusual move as FF will only have 5 ministers and I'd say there's plenty TD's in the mix there, Jack chambers might be one.

roadmaster

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

A senator would be an unusual move as FF will only have 5 ministers and I'd say there's plenty TD's in the mix there, Jack chambers might be one.

Its happened before in 81/82 and I believe under the Constitution the Taoiseach is aloud to appoint two senators to the cabinet .The problem for FF is the lack of females on the front bench

Larbre34

roadmaster wrote: »

According to RTE we will have a Minister for Defence and the Gaeltacht . That's an usual mix

The impression I got from Míchéal Lehane on the lunchtime bulletin was that both of those would be separate senior ministries, both likely to have other responsibilities attached.

The possibility of a security, policing and defence portfolio is a good shout though. Then the administration of justice and law reform could fall under other briefs.

roadmaster

Listening to the radio earlier that seems more likely

mikeym

Larbre34 wrote: »

That video is two and a half years old.

Im sure he still has that notion in his head.


Simon Coveney is the new Minister of Defence, He lives ten minutes away from the Naval Base so hes well aware of the retention crisis in Haulbowline.

We wont have a Navy if it gets continued to be ignored.

mikeym

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/call-for-coveney-to-address-naval-service-manpower-crisis-1008158.html

Tánaiste Simon Coveney, who is taking control at the Department of Defence, says one of his immediate priorities in the role will be to address the manpower crisis in the Naval Service.

A year ago, the Naval Service had to tie-up two of its ships because it lacked crews and a third could follow suit before the end of the year if personnel continue to leave at the current rate.

sparky42

mikeym wrote: »

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/call-for-coveney-to-address-naval-service-manpower-crisis-1008158.html

Good.

Maoltuile

Larbre34 wrote: »

• Ensure that all enlisted members of the Defence Forces have the same access to healthcare as officers do currently.

This is long, long overdue. I was in Blackrock Clinic for something a couple of years ago (covered by VHI) and turned around to see the then-current COS behind me in line. He was just waved straight hrough - no forms for him - as being on the DF officer scheme.

NewSigGuy

Maoltuile wrote: »

This is long, long overdue. I was in Blackrock Clinic for something a couple of years ago (covered by VHI) and turned around to see the then-current COS behind me in line. He was just waved straight hrough - no forms for him - as being on the DF officer scheme.

Did you ever consider that maybe he just had an appointment.

I've never heard of the DF officer scheme, can you enlighten us..

Maoltuile

NewSigGuy wrote: »

Did you ever consider that maybe he just had an appointment.

I've never heard of the DF officer scheme, can you enlighten us..

Nope, he just identified himself as DF and bypassed the queue.

NewSigGuy

Maoltuile wrote: »

Nope, he just identified himself as DF and bypassed the queue.

Wow that's incredible.. I served 12 years as a DF Officer and they never told me about this scheme. I could have skipped so many queues and saved a fortune on VHI.

Maoltuile

NewSigGuy wrote: »

Wow that's incredible.. I served 12 years as a DF Officer and they never told me about this scheme. I could have skipped so many queues and saved a fortune on VHI.

Someone must not have liked you very much, then. Because:

'Changes to health insurance rules introduced last week put pressure on more than 1,000 officers serving in the Defence Forces to take out private health insurance even though they already have full medical cover as part of their terms of employment.'

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/army-officers-insured-on-the-double-to-avoid-health-levies-1.2198558

This was 2015. The COS I'm referring to was recently gone by that stage, so had been on it.

NewSigGuy

Maoltuile wrote: »

Someone must not have liked you very much, then. Because:
'Changes to health insurance rules introduced last week put pressure on more than 1,000 officers serving in the Defence Forces to take out private health insurance even though they already have full medical cover as part of their terms of employment.'https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/army-officers-insured-on-the-double-to-avoid-health-levies-1.2198558
This was 2015. The COS I'm referring to was recently gone by that stage, so had been on it.

I am sorry you are reading too much into that report. There was never and is not now a DF officers scheme, DF officers have the same basic health cover as any Member of the DF and would use the public health system for anything beyond routine health checks etc..

Most Officers I knew had VHI and that was in the 90's..

I know there is a common theme in these forums that Officers somehow live a privileged life and have batmen etc.. Let me assure you that this is not the case.

davetherave

Defence Forces Medical Services - https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2018-04-25/77/

The majority of secondary health care for members of the Defence Forces is provided through the public/private health system. There is no charge to members of the Defence Forces for attendance at a public hospital AandE or a stay in a public hospital. Additionally, Commissioned Officers can be referred for out-patient and in-patient treatment through private/semi-private care in civilian hospitals or private consultants’ rooms, where it is deemed necessary by the Defence Forces Medical Officer or the attending doctor subject to financial sanction. There is no cost to the officer for the private/semi private treatment as this forms part of the terms and conditions of their employment in the Defence Forces.

---

https://www.hia.ie/sites/default/files/03.03.2017%20Dept.%20of%20Defense%20LCR%20Submission%20.pdf

1. Medical Services provided to Commissioned Officers of the Defence Forces.

Defence Forces healthcare, includes, inter alia, an annual occupational medical, primary medical care treatment and the provision of medication prescribed by a doctor, physiotherapy, routine dental treatment and some limited in-house secondary care.

Additionally. Commissioned Officers can be referred for out-patient and in-patient treatment through private semi-private care in civilian hospitals or private consultants rooms, where it is deemed necessary. Enlisted personnel, in exceptional circumstances may also be referred.

There is no cost to the officer for the private/semi private treatment. This is provided as part of the terms and conditions of employment in the Defence Forces. Indeed it is noteworthy that the perceived benefits ensuing. relative to employees generally, have already been examined and factored into account by the Gleeson Commission of 1990, when it considered the total remuneration package and non pay elements pertaining to military personnel.

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NewSigGuy

davetherave wrote: »

Defence Forces Medical Services - https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2018-04-25/77/

The majority of secondary health care for members of the Defence Forces is provided through the public/private health system. There is no charge to members of the Defence Forces for attendance at a public hospital AandE or a stay in a public hospital. Additionally, Commissioned Officers can be referred for out-patient and in-patient treatment through private/semi-private care in civilian hospitals or private consultants’ rooms, where it is deemed necessary by the Defence Forces Medical Officer or the attending doctor subject to financial sanction. There is no cost to the officer for the private/semi private treatment as this forms part of the terms and conditions of their employment in the Defence Forces.

---

https://www.hia.ie/sites/default/files/03.03.2017%20Dept.%20of%20Defense%20LCR%20Submission%20.pdf

1. Medical Services provided to Commissioned Officers of the Defence Forces.

Defence Forces healthcare, includes, inter alia, an annual occupational medical, primary medical care treatment and the provision of medication prescribed by a doctor, physiotherapy, routine dental treatment and some limited in-house secondary care.

Additionally. Commissioned Officers can be referred for out-patient and in-patient treatment through private semi-private care in civilian hospitals or private consultants rooms, where it is deemed necessary. Enlisted personnel, in exceptional circumstances may also be referred.

There is no cost to the officer for the private/semi private treatment. This is provided as part of the terms and conditions of employment in the Defence Forces. Indeed it is noteworthy that the perceived benefits ensuing. relative to employees generally, have already been examined and factored into account by the Gleeson Commission of 1990, when it considered the total remuneration package and non pay elements pertaining to military personnel.

---

Fair play, the actual wording, it does mention "Can be referred" and not "shall" so no guarantee, and also subject to financial sanction, quite a few caveats. Clearly it is not as good as any of the regular private health insurance schemes.

It also says it may also be for any member of the DF.

DF officers would not be skipping queues and would not have any better coverage then even the most basic VHI, hence many have there own private health insurance.

There is also mention in the Cadet and Direct entry FAQ type info, that this coverage may be subject to Benefit in Kind..