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Defence - text from the tri-partite draft Programme for Government June 2020

  • 15-06-2020 10:28pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,605 ✭✭✭✭


    Forgive any poor formatting, discuss!

    Defence

    Irish people take great pride in our Permanent Defence Forces and the men and women who serve this country with pride and distinction. Since first deploying, the Defence Forces have the longest unbroken record of overseas service with the United Nations of any country, during this time the nature of conflict has presented new challenges. We will continue this proud record and ensure that the Defence Forces are suitably resourced to partake in such service recognising the new challenges facing the global community.

    Peacekeeping and humanitarian efforts are at the core of the international reputation of the Defence Forces. With climate change becoming an increasing security threat across the world and a signfactor in the incidences of war, famine, forced migration and disaster management, we recognise the vital role the Defence Forces have in addressing these challenges.

    Commission on the Defence Forces

    In order to meet the medium and longer term defence requirements of the State an independent Commission will be established. This Commission will undertake a comprehensive review which will
    include the following matters:

    • Arrangements for the effective defence of the country at land and sea.
    • Structures for governance, joint command and control structures.
    • The brigade structure.
    • Pay and allowances and composition of the Defence Forces.
    • Recruitment. retention and career progression.
    • The contribution of the Reserve Defence Forces, including its legislation and Defence Forces regulations governing it and whether specialists from the RDF should be able to serve
    overseas.

    The Commission will contain a wide variety of expertise such as management, human resources, academia, law, public service, as well as members with external military expertise from countries similar in size to Ireland and also from states that like Ireland are non-aligned militarily. We will consult widely on the terms of reference for the Commission which will be established by end of 2020 with a mandate to report within twelve months.

    The outcome of this review will remain grounded in a policy of active military neutrality and
    participative multilateralism through the United Nations and European Union.

    Upon completion of the Commissions work, a permanent pay review body will be established,
    reflecting the unique nature of military service in the context of the public service. All
    recommendations by the Commission or the successor body and their implementation must be consistent with national public sector wage policy.

    Overseas operations and international co-operation

    The Government will ensure that all overseas operations will be carried out in line with our position of military neutrality and will be subject to a triple lock of UN, Government and Dáil Eireann approval.

    Ireland’s participation in PESCO projects will be maintained on an ‘opt-in’ basis, with contributions being entirely voluntary. Any projects undertaken within PESCO will be approved by Cabinet and Dáil Éireann.
    The Government will not partake in projects which are not compatible with our policy of active military neutrality and non-membership of military alliances.
    Within the context of the European Peace Facility Ireland will not be part of decision making or funding for lethal force weapons for non-peacekeeping purposes.

    Additional actions

    We will:
    • Support the establishment of centres for retired members of the Defence Forces.
    • Develop a new Institute for Peace Support and Leadership Training in the Curragh.
    • Ensure that all enlisted members of the Defence Forces have the same access to healthcare as officers do currently.
    • Amend the Organisation of Working Time Act bringing the Defence Forces within the scope of its provisions.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Cover to go back to the 3 Brigade but not actually change anything to fully man said formations. As little extra money and resources as possible, and lets just forget that people and things can actually fly...


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,605 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    My fault there. A later corrected version of the text includes references to airspace etc


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    My fault there. A later corrected version of the text includes references to airspace etc
    Not sure it was your fault, their first version did clearly leave out airspace, which kind of shows you the level of attention they were giving the area of Defence.


    Any word yet as to might be minister or whether it will be a full ministry?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,605 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    No nothing in detail on the ministries, except 6 FF 6 FG and 3 Gr. I imagine the outcome of the fate of the full cabinet position for Children will dictate the other musical chairs.

    We could see a return to the old combination of Defence & the Marine, post-Brexit sea fisheries will be a very busy and probably contentious brief.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,479 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Maybe they should consider closing all the old barracks and hand them over for new housing sites. The barracks our military took over where from a military that was an occupation army. Our defence forces are not an army of occupation. We should maybe consider building 6 modern purpose built bases with accommodation for there soldiers in strategic locations around the country


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭sparky42


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Maybe they should consider closing all the old barracks and hand them over for new housing sites. The barracks our military took over where from a military that was an occupation army. Our defence forces are not an army of occupation. We should maybe consider building 6 modern purpose built bases with accommodation for there soldiers in strategic locations around the country


    Politics... Even if it happened given previous they wouldn't even bother to fund new bases.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,479 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    sparky42 wrote: »
    Politics... Even if it happened given previous they wouldn't even bother to fund new bases.

    It just needs a good sales pitch explain the army are getting less based which will be cheaper to operate but leave out that they will be modern places of work which will help improve the defence forces as we all know the DOD dont like to do anything that would improve the defence forces


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Maybe they should consider closing all the old barracks and hand them over for new housing sites. The barracks our military took over where from a military that was an occupation army. Our defence forces are not an army of occupation. We should maybe consider building 6 modern purpose built bases with accommodation for there soldiers in strategic locations around the country

    Only a select few would actually be any use for housing (Cathal Brugha, McKee, Collins, Sarsfield, Renmore - any others?) and a rake of the buildings are (or rapidly would be when out of military use) listed at all of those. And there are obvious reasons for retaining some capacity in cities.

    Previous closures in Dublin have gone to other state uses with the exception of Clancy as the outlier for housing (unless I'm forgetting somewhere)
    edit: well, there was Keogh/Richmond a hundred years ago!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭sparky42


    roadmaster wrote: »
    It just needs a good sales pitch explain the army are getting less based which will be cheaper to operate but leave out that they will be modern places of work which will help improve the defence forces as we all know the DOD dont like to do anything that would improve the defence forces


    Sure, at which point everyone whose losing their Barracks start complaining about how the local economy is going to be screwed and really they don't want anymore people moving in because of lack of services etc...


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,479 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    L1011 wrote: »
    Only a select few would actually be any use for housing (Cathal Brugha, McKee, Collins, Sarsfield, Renmore - any others?) and a rake of the buildings are (or rapidly would be when out of military use) listed at all of those. And there are obvious reasons for retaining some capacity in cities.

    Previous closures in Dublin have gone to other state uses with the exception of Clancy as the outlier for housing (unless I'm forgetting somewhere)
    edit: well, there was Keogh/Richmond a hundred years ago!

    Athlone, Galway are in a good location for houses and I would flatten them as there is nothing of any particular heritage about them and build houses. Build a new base along the M17 to serve Connaught and you could do the same in Munster with Sarsfield and Collins both are in prime housing locations. You could again build a new base of the M20 when It comes and it could serve Munster


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,479 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    sparky42 wrote: »
    Sure, at which point everyone whose losing their Barracks start complaining about how the local economy is going to be screwed and really they don't want anymore people moving in because of lack of services etc...

    Don't think it matters to much as defence doesn't seam to come in to the general publics mind and the ones it does are too little in numbers for the politicians to worry or care about


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,984 ✭✭✭mikeym


    Eamonn Ryan keeps harping on about using public lands for housing when there isnt enough public land to meet the demand.

    Unless you close a barracks or two.

    The Green Party dont give two hoots about Defence especially the Army.

    Wasnt there an independent commission setup to investigate Pay & Conditions last year?

    Yeah there was and they did nothing meaningful.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,770 ✭✭✭Nuttzz


    Eamon Ryan made a video outside Cathal Brugha Barracks looking to turn it into a housing zone


    https://twitter.com/eamonryan/status/970708205973237760


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,605 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    That video is two and a half years old.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,770 ✭✭✭Nuttzz


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    That video is two and a half years old.

    So? you think he will have changed his mind some how?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,605 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Nuttzz wrote: »
    So? you think he will have changed his mind some how?

    Yes. I'd say within a few days he was warned off stunts like that. Haven't heard mention of it since.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Yes. I'd say within a few days he was warned off stunts like that. Haven't heard mention of it since.


    Given the "left" wing that the Greens have currently I wouldn't be so sure that if they go in that the topic doesn't come back around.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,479 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Last year I think it was planned to split up the department of justice and equality if I remember correctly. In the new government could we see the creation of a new minister and department along the lines of Defence & internal security which would bring the military and garda under one minister with a jnr minister for each organisation.?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭sparky42


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Last year I think it was planned to split up the department of justice and equality if I remember correctly. In the new government could we see the creation of a new minister and department along the lines of Defence & internal security which would bring the military and garda under one minister with a jnr minister for each organisation.?


    We've had that before, when it was Justice and Defence under Shatter, didn't seem very productive in that regard.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,479 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    sparky42 wrote: »
    We've had that before, when it was Justice and Defence under Shatter, didn't seem very productive in that regard.

    That could be more a shatter issue than anything else


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭sparky42


    roadmaster wrote: »
    That could be more a shatter issue than anything else
    True enough...


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,479 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    i hate to say it but it looks like FF is the defense forces only hope . We could see Senator Lisa Chambers as the Minister for state for defense which would be a help potentially with her background .

    According to RTE we will have a Minister for Defence and the Gaeltacht . That's an usual mix


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,345 ✭✭✭davetherave


    roadmaster wrote: »
    According to RTE we will have a Minister for Defence and the Gaeltacht . That's an usual mix


    Those buachaillí in An Chead Cathlain, up to no good as usual. :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Heraldoffreeent


    roadmaster wrote: »
    i hate to say it but it looks like FF is the defense forces only hope . We could see Senator Lisa Chambers as the Minister for state for defense which would be a help potentially with her background .

    According to RTE we will have a Minister for Defence and the Gaeltacht . That's an usual mix

    A senator would be an unusual move as FF will only have 5 ministers and I'd say there's plenty TD's in the mix there, Jack chambers might be one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,479 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    A senator would be an unusual move as FF will only have 5 ministers and I'd say there's plenty TD's in the mix there, Jack chambers might be one.

    Its happened before in 81/82 and I believe under the Constitution the Taoiseach is aloud to appoint two senators to the cabinet .The problem for FF is the lack of females on the front bench


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,605 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    roadmaster wrote: »
    According to RTE we will have a Minister for Defence and the Gaeltacht . That's an usual mix

    The impression I got from Míchéal Lehane on the lunchtime bulletin was that both of those would be separate senior ministries, both likely to have other responsibilities attached.

    The possibility of a security, policing and defence portfolio is a good shout though. Then the administration of justice and law reform could fall under other briefs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,479 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Listening to the radio earlier that seems more likely


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,984 ✭✭✭mikeym


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    That video is two and a half years old.

    Im sure he still has that notion in his head.


    Simon Coveney is the new Minister of Defence, He lives ten minutes away from the Naval Base so hes well aware of the retention crisis in Haulbowline.

    We wont have a Navy if it gets continued to be ignored.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,984 ✭✭✭mikeym


    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/call-for-coveney-to-address-naval-service-manpower-crisis-1008158.html
    Tánaiste Simon Coveney, who is taking control at the Department of Defence, says one of his immediate priorities in the role will be to address the manpower crisis in the Naval Service.

    A year ago, the Naval Service had to tie-up two of its ships because it lacked crews and a third could follow suit before the end of the year if personnel continue to leave at the current rate.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭sparky42




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