How common is "femmephobia" among gay men?

mr_fegelien

It's something as a bisexual man I've encountered. I've tried a few nsa encounters online and found that many men were put off by crossdressing/being in a feminine position. They say "If I wanted a woman, I'd date one".

I don't have a problem, it's a preference but wondering why it's so common. I don't think I've heard of an equivalent in real life or online when it comes to lesbians. It seems again that fragile masculinity impacts gay men as well and some try to assert their manliness by pushing away anything feminine.

unfortunately

I wouldn't call it femmphobia if its just a preference. You can't control who you are attracted to - tall, short, old, young, fat, thin. Adding - phobia to the end of it doesn't help.

I take your point though that a large amount of gay men are hostile to femme or camp gay men. I think its a reaction against the stereotype. If you are a gay man people make assumptions about your personality and lifestyle so it's natural that men who aren't camp would react against it.

Personally, campness is a turn off for in a partner.

Gay men by definition are attracted to men, not women. So there is a difference there, they are likely to like masculine things and not feminine things. It doesn't have to be about fragile masculinity, it could be that they just don't have an interest in it.

Some men are naturally camp (even straight men) but also there seems to be a sort of fake over the top camp acting going on. Men who seem to copy a certain depiction of gay men from American TV and act like that in real life. I would definitely react negativly to that (just like if a straight person acted like an over the top TV character).

mr_fegelien

unfortunately wrote: »

I wouldn't call it femmphobia if its just a preference. You can't control who you are attracted to - tall, short, old, young, fat, thin. Adding - phobia to the end of it doesn't help.

I take your point though that a large amount of gay men are hostile to femme or camp gay men. I think its a reaction against the stereotype. If you are a gay man people make assumptions about your personality and lifestyle so it's natural that men who aren't camp would react against it.

Personally, campness is a turn off for in a partner.

Gay men by definition are attracted to men, not women. So there is a difference there, they are likely to like masculine things and not feminine things. It doesn't have to be about fragile masculinity, it could be that they just don't have an interest in it.

Some men are naturally camp (even straight men) but also there seems to be a sort of fake over the top camp acting going on. Men who seem to copy a certain depiction of gay men from American TV and act like that in real life. I would definitely react negativly to that (just like if a straight person acted like an over the top TV character).

It's interesting you say that.

I have to say that personally I'm not really attracted to men so much as I'm attracted to femininity. I'm bisexual and open to dating attractive women and very feminine men. To me, there's little difference. I'm actually turned off by masculine men but that's a preference like you said.

368100

mr_fegelien wrote: »

It's interesting you say that.

I have to say that personally I'm not really attracted to men so much as I'm attracted to femininity. I'm bisexual and open to dating attractive women and very feminine men. To me, there's little difference. I'm actually turned off by masculine men but that's a preference like you said.

Im bi too...I wouldn't say it's a phobia either in my case, overly camp/feminine men just don't do anything sexually for me. I have a couple of friends that would fall into that description and i love spending time with them as they're a good laugh.....but I wouldnt be doing anything more because I'm just not attracted to that type....as other posters have said, it's mostly just a preference.

Seamai

Like other posters I wouldn't use the word "phobia". I have friends who would be quite camp or effeminate (even by their own admission), I don't have a problem with it but I don't find myself attracted to men like that.
Many years ago I put a personal ad on a gay website (pre all the hook up and dating apps out there now), in it I mentioned that I preferred "straight acting" guys, I got two really abusive responses for using that term, perhaps I should have used the word "masculine" though no doubt, though I'm sure somebody would have still taken offence. There was a time when I used to take the "I'd never have thought you were gay" comment as a huge compliment, now I find it a bit annoying but then in spite of the great progress over the last few decades, on television many gay characters are still portrayed as camp and there more for entertainment and box ticking.

We're living in a world were political correctness is spiralling out of control, the suffix "phobia" is bandied around far too easily. Personally I'm not particularly attracted to Chinese, Japanese, Korean or south east Asian men, or black African men, does that mean I'm "phobic" towards them?

Dingle_berry

Contrary to the other posters I definitely think that there can be a phobia of feminine gay men. Not about attraction but there are people who do not want to know or to be associated with feminine men. They're slightly more commonly straight but a lot of gay men, especially those still in the closet or those that value the ability to pass as straight.
It's probably an extension of homophobic conditioning from society, growing up as something "different". I've foolishly taken the "I'd never have guessed that you're gay" thing as a compliment. I've also had "friends" and colleagues tell me that they would treat me differently if I were more effeminate.
Attraction is one thing but there is definite phobia / prejudice against more effeminate men. Whatever label you want to put on it personal awareness is the important thing.

Seamai

Dingle_berry wrote: »

Contrary to the other posters I definitely think that there can be a phobia of feminine gay men. Not about attraction but there are people who do not want to know or to be associated with feminine men. They're slightly more commonly straight but a lot of gay men, especially those still in the closet or those that value the ability to pass as straight.
It's probably an extension of homophobic conditioning from society, growing up as something "different". I've foolishly taken the "I'd never have guessed that you're gay" thing as a compliment. I've also had "friends" and colleagues tell me that they would treat me differently if I were more effeminate.
Attraction is one thing but there is definite phobia / prejudice against more effeminate men. Whatever label you want to put on it personal awareness is the important thing.

I get your point about more closeted men, I have a friend in his mid 50's who has never quite managed to open that closet door in spite of encouragement from myself and other friends.
You wouldn't believe how paranoid the guy is, even if I bumped into him on the street his eyes would be darting around hoping he wouldn't be seen talking to the likes of me because he'd have to explain how he knew me. If I was anyway camp he probably would dive for cover in a doorway.

My experience of camp men (as opposed to effeminate) is there can sometimes an element of exaggeration, over dramatisation and attention seeking (often born out of deep rooted insecurities). I used to be friendly with a guy who was great fun to be around, totally outrageous, very sharp humour but had to be the centre of attention 24/7 and woe betide anyone who averted their gaze while in his company. I've come across guys who were really camp when they first came out but grew out of it and vice versa, which makes me wonder how much of is learned or are there guys out there who think that's how they are supposed to behave. When I came out first I used to get teased a lot by the bitchy queens mocking my very deep voice, asking if I was really just a very tall lesbian, it didn't bother me much but I just wanted to blend in and be accepted as one of the gang. I'd say in some gay circles there is a certain amount of disdain for more masculine guys who don't fit into their vision of gayness.

partyguinness

mr_fegelien wrote: »

It's interesting you say that.

I have to say that personally I'm not really attracted to men so much as I'm attracted to femininity. I'm bisexual and open to dating attractive women and very feminine men. To me, there's little difference. I'm actually turned off by masculine men but that's a preference like you said.

Sounds to me that you are straight but so desparate for any sort of attention you see camp men as an easier alternative.

368100

partyguinness wrote: »

Sounds to me that you are straight but so desparate for any sort of attention you see camp men as an easier alternative.

Lol that's just a ridiculous post.

368100

Seamai wrote: »

I find it a bit annoying but then in spite of the great progress over the last few decades, on television many gay characters are still portrayed as camp and there more for entertainment and box ticking.

Do you think so? I think there's been a big focus on portraying gay characters as normal down to earth types rather than caricatures......especially in programme aimed at late teen/early 20s group.

mr_fegelien

368100 wrote: »

Do you think so? I think there's been a big focus on portraying gay characters as normal down to earth types rather than caricatures......especially in programme aimed at late teen/early 20s group.

Not really. It's funny you say that cause I'm watching Modern Family now and the couple "Cam and Mitchell" are stereotypically camp partners with Cam being more exaggerated.

But I must say it's really hilarious how many gay men are against campness yet the stereotype persists among straight people. As I said in a post above don't have an issue with masculinity/femininity in lesbian women as much from what I've seen.

Dingle_berry

Seamai wrote: »

I get your point about more closeted men, I have a friend in his mid 50's who has never quite managed to open that closet door in spite of encouragement from myself and other friends.
You wouldn't believe how paranoid the guy is, even if I bumped into him on the street his eyes would be darting around hoping he wouldn't be seen talking to the likes of me because he'd have to explain how he knew me. If I was anyway camp he probably would dive for cover in a doorway.

My experience of camp men (as opposed to effeminate) is there can sometimes an element of exaggeration, over dramatisation and attention seeking (often born out of deep rooted insecurities). I used to be friendly with a guy who was great fun to be around, totally outrageous, very sharp humour but had to be the centre of attention 24/7 and woe betide anyone who averted their gaze while in his company. I've come across guys who were really camp when they first came out but grew out of it and vice versa, which makes me wonder how much of is learned or are there guys out there who think that's how they are supposed to behave. When I came out first I used to get teased a lot by the bitchy queens mocking my very deep voice, asking if I was really just a very tall lesbian, it didn't bother me much but I just wanted to blend in and be accepted as one of the gang. I'd say in some gay circles there is a certain amount of disdain for more masculine guys who don't fit into their vision of gayness.

Getting to know an effeminate man, then deciding that you dont like him is different from not liking him purely because he is effeminate. It's prejudice to not like all effeminate men, something that all humans are naturally good at unfortunately.

Seamai

368100 wrote: »

Do you think so? I think there's been a big focus on portraying gay characters as normal down to earth types rather than caricatures......especially in programme aimed at late teen/early 20s group.

It has improved a lot but I despair at the likes of Modern Family, Queer Eye and Ru Paul's Drag Race.

Annasopra

I'm not bothered about campness at all. I find it weird that people are to be honest.

Mattdhg

I definitely balk a bit when I meet a guy for a date or whatever and he's an over the top queeny caricature. I don't think its necessarily a "fragile masculinity" thing, more so to do with my upbringing. Even my sisters wouldnt let on like that, we'd have been given a fine clip across the back of the head and told to cop onto ourselves. Most of my friends would be in the same boat - no problem being yourself but dont put on a show for others. Those kind of extremely effeminate guys just seem really fake, just like the big gym lawwwds on the other end of the spectrum.

I dont have anything against "feminine" traits though, we all have them to some degree. Just don't let whatever's trending right now be the basis of your whole personality.

Annasopra

Mattdhg wrote: »

I definitely balk a bit when I meet a guy for a date or whatever and he's an over the top queeny caricature. I don't think its necessarily a "fragile masculinity" thing, more so to do with my upbringing. Even my sisters wouldnt let on like that, we'd have been given a fine clip across the back of the head and told to cop onto ourselves. Most of my friends would be in the same boat - no problem being yourself but dont put on a show for others. Those kind of extremely effeminate guys just seem really fake, just like the big gym lawwwds on the other end of the spectrum.

I dont have anything against "feminine" traits though, we all have them to some degree. Just don't let whatever's trending right now be the basis of your whole personality.

I dont mean this in any way as a personal criticism or attack but I dont really understand your point of view to be honest. Its almost like your upbringing constructed what is accepted of masculinity and femininity and anything outside the constructs you seem to view negatively and false or fake.

Mattdhg

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I dont mean this in any way as a personal criticism or attack but I dont really understand your point of view to be honest. Its almost like your upbringing constructed what is accepted of masculinity and femininity and anything outside the constructs you seem to view negatively and false or fake.

I'm open to that, no offence taken at all. I included that upbringing bit because I think it shapes everyone's view to a large extent, disclosing my bias. I don't have a high opinion of people who are over the top for the sake of it, like a constantly refreshing twitter feed turning out pure ****e.

I just view it as false behaviour because its over the top and general attention seeking, like a destructive alter ego that takes over if there's an audience near by. Even the loudest, proudest and most ostensibly gay guys I have met are much more muted and balanced in person, one on one.

LLMMLL

Everyone is entitled to sleep with who they want but I believe a lot of "innate preferences" are symptoms of innate prejudices.

I think someone who is not attracted to camp men probably has some unconscious prejudiced against them.

I don't buy the "I'm attracted to men so why would I be attracted to a feminine man". The thing is camp.men aren't really feminine. I don't know any women who behave like camp men. They usually just don't match masculine stereotypes.

1 sheep2

LLMMLL wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to sleep with who they want but I believe a lot of "innate preferences" are symptoms of innate prejudices.

I think someone who is not attracted to camp men probably has some unconscious prejudiced against them.

I don't buy the "I'm attracted to men so why would I be attracted to a feminine man". The thing is camp.men aren't really feminine. I don't know any women who behave like camp men. They usually just don't match masculine stereotypes.

It depends what you mean by prejudice. I am into femme guys and don't really like hyper-masculine, hairy guys. That's a prejudice of sorts, but it's very benign. I think someone can have a similar prejudice against femme guys without it necessarily being rooted in some kind of internalised homophobia.

AllForIt

mr_fegelien wrote: »

It's something as a bisexual man I've encountered. I've tried a few nsa encounters online and found that many men were put off by crossdressing/being in a feminine position. They say "If I wanted a woman, I'd date one".

I don't have a problem, it's a preference but wondering why it's so common. I don't think I've heard of an equivalent in real life or online when it comes to lesbians. It seems again that fragile masculinity impacts gay men as well and some try to assert their manliness by pushing away anything feminine.[/QUOTE]


Like you say it's a preference, which is why is I'm a bit confused by your post because you seem to understand the concept of 'preference'. Do you not celebrate diversity of preference. For you to interpret preference as asserting one's masculinity tells me you must have been reading some typically bizarre lefty literature.

LLMMLL wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to sleep with who they want but I believe a lot of "innate preferences" are symptoms of innate prejudices.

I think someone who is not attracted to camp men probably has some unconscious prejudiced against them.

I don't buy the "I'm attracted to men so why would I be attracted to a feminine man". The thing is camp.men aren't really feminine. I don't know any women who behave like camp men. They usually just don't match masculine stereotypes.

Same goes for you as well. In your case you've used prejudice instead of the OP's masculinity asserting angle. One of the oddest opinions I've every read on this site.

.

368100

LLMMLL wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to sleep with who they want but I believe a lot of "innate preferences" are symptoms of innate prejudices.

I think someone who is not attracted to camp men probably has some unconscious prejudiced against them.

I don't buy the "I'm attracted to men so why would I be attracted to a feminine man". The thing is camp.men aren't really feminine. I don't know any women who behave like camp men. They usually just don't match masculine stereotypes.

That’s a strange opinion. So do you think gay men have an unconscious prejudice against women because they are not attracted to them? I find intelligence very attractive.....have I an unconscious prejudice against less intelligent people?
Everyone has a type that they are attracted to..Doesn’t mean they are prejudiced against people they aren’t attracted to...it would be weird if someone was attracted to all types.

LLMMLL

368100 wrote: »

That’s a strange opinion. So do you think gay men have an unconscious prejudice against women because they are not attracted to them? I find intelligence very attractive.....have I an unconscious prejudice against less intelligent people?
Everyone has a type that they are attracted to..Doesn’t mean they are prejudiced against people they aren’t attracted to...it would be weird if someone was attracted to all types.

It's not a strange opinion at all. It would be strange to believe that all "preferences" have the same origin.

For example it's pretty clear that whether you are.primarily attracted to men or women is pretty much biologically hardwired and RELATIVELY immutable.

Aside from that there are a whole host of "preferences" and each of these must have some origin. Whether we can discern that origin is a different question.

I never claimed that all "preferences" are because of prejudice so taking a random preference and claiming it can't be because of prejudice doesn't really make any difference.

I also don't mean prejudice as in "I virulently hate this type of person" but more in a sense of "I inherently value one type of person over another".

In your case it's completely possible that you have issues with people you do not perceive as "intelligent". Of course there are further issues about what you even mean by "intelligent". All you are really saying is "I like a certain personality type" which is a pretty fuzzy category.

It's a little different to "I don't date Asians".