Local Authority / Council Chargers

AndyBoBandy

In Skerries, there's an eCars twin 22kWh AC which I've used a few times, but on the opposite side of the public toilets, theres a twin AC community charger. The sign says only 1 of the spaces is reserved for the community car (which is usually parked there), and the other one just mentions it's an EV charger. I plugged in one day and got 3.7kWh from it, no card or app needed, and just this weekend I saw a Leaf using it, so what's the deal with these community chargers? It's not listed on PlugShare. Are they game ball to use?

unkel

I just used the ESB one over in Skerries (south beach), first time the dog had seen a beach in three months. The car took in nearly 60kWh

I can't see why you shouldn't use that community charger apart from its lousy charge rate. You'd need to be parked there for the whole day (or overnight) to make any difference...

AndyBoBandy

we just went up for a walk as well, and the 2 eCars ones were busy, so said I'd try the community one (just for sh1ts & giggles as public charging is still a novelty for us)and only then realised it's slow rate.

Is it worth adding these to Plugshare? I know their not going to get you any great charge fast (for me in the SR+, it would be about 30km/h), but it would do in an emergency, or at least while waiting for one of the eCars beside it to become available..

Silent Running

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

Yeah but there's a big section of society which is being excluded from doing that because they don't have a driveway. And there isn't always an SCP in a convenient location to leave the car on charge

This is why I think BEVs and REXs beat PHEVs IMO, they have fast charging and proper sized batteries, so if you're in a situation where you need to rely on fast charging then you can realistically do it

There are solutions for drivers without a driveway.

Apartment dwellers should be able to set up chargers in their community and management companies should be encouraged/forced to facilitate this.

Lamp post chargers should be commonplace at this stage. We're not there yet, but we should be.

MJohnston

I was walking round a nearby apartment complex, Honey Park in Deansgrange, the other day, and there are loads of little pedestal chargers all around that place. They’re outside of townhouses and apartment blocks, and they’re very non-disruptively placed.

Black_Knight

Silent Running wrote: »

There are solutions for drivers without a driveway.

Apartment dwellers should be able to set up chargers in their community and management companies should be encouraged/forced to facilitate this.

Lamp post chargers should be commonplace at this stage. We're not there yet, but we should be.

Paul from easygo discussed this at the last ievoa meeting. Said it's just not worth it. The pay off is over 10+ years at the moment, and no one is willing to pay for it up front.

bodgerfederer

MJohnston wrote: »

I was walking round a nearby apartment complex, Honey Park in Deansgrange, the other day, and there are loads of little pedestal chargers all around that place. They’re outside of townhouses and apartment blocks, and they’re very non-disruptively placed.

Many in honey park will be disgusted that you’ve lumped them into deansgrange and not dun laoghaire😀.

The houses are pre-cabled up and ready for a simple pedestal install.
Not sure about the apartments though- their parking spaces are actually underground, I can’t imagine that they all have access to their own charger.

MJohnston

bodgerfederer wrote: »

Many in honey park will be disgusted that you’ve lumped them into deansgrange and not dun laoghaire😀.

The houses are pre-cabled up and ready for a simple pedestal install.
Not sure about the apartments though- their parking spaces are actually underground, I can’t imagine that they all have access to their own charger.

Some of the apartment parking is on the surface, and is reserved I think.

For apartment complexes like this, it would be super easy to install a few charging spots, even in an underground car park, and have a reservation system via an app so you can book a 12 hour block or something.

McGiver

Black_Knight wrote:

Paul from easygo discussed this at the last ievoa meeting. Said it's just not worth it. The pay off is over 10+ years at the moment, and no one is willing to pay for it up front.

While this may be true, it's worth pointing out that Paul is an entrepreneur.

Community chargers are setup by the local authorities in the Netherlands and Norway. Not by the private sector. They're are a public service not for profit.

The biggest gains in infrastructure and EV uptake in Ireland can be made via legislation, I'm convinced.

the_amazing_raisin

McGiver wrote: »

While this may be true, it's worth pointing out that Paul is an entrepreneur.

Community chargers are setup by the local authorities in the Netherlands and Norway. Not by the private sector. They're are a public service not for profit.

The biggest gains in infrastructure and EV uptake in Ireland can be made via legislation, I'm convinced.

They've already got a public charging grant for councils which pays 75% of the capital costs

Let's say a council put forward a fairly measly €100k, and they get €300k in grants

How many chargers could you get with €400k? At a fairly outrageous €1000 per charger, which seems about right considering how good county councils are at wasting money, that's 400 chargers, far more than what's available in most counties at the moment

JohnC.

They'll need to get suitable power to those chargers too. Not sure how much that might cost.

the_amazing_raisin

JohnC. wrote: »

They'll need to get suitable power to those chargers too. Not sure how much that might cost.

Shouldn't cost much frankly, 10x 7kW chargers is the same as 4 or 5 houses so most likely wouldn't need infrastructure upgrades.

In housing estates they could put them in banks near the ESB junction boxes so the cable runs and trenches would be minimal. And frankly councils should be able to get a decent rate for big contracts

Councils could give a discount rate to residents for charging overnight to encourage usage when demand is low, that'll help balance the grid as well which is good

McGiver

the_amazing_raisin wrote:

They've already got a public charging grant for councils which pays 75% of the capital costs

That scheme is mediocre and not good enough:
- It's only for 1000 charges - laughingly small and inadequate number in grand scheme of things
- Local authorities are skint, won't pay the remaining 25% (it's a broader decentralisation issue in Ireland)
- And most importantly, there's no legal obligation for the LA to install it if you request it, there is no regulatory framework with regards to such installations and there is no "right to a plug" etc.

We need solid legislation around this just like in NL, NO and now also DE pronto.

1. Mandate chargers - service stations, car parks, cinemas, malls, supermarkets, office blocks, estates, public service buildings - start with a low requirement and then gradually increase
2. Tax incentives for installing chargers by retail
3. Tax incentives for installing chargers at workplaces
4. Grants and tax incentives for installing chargers by local authorities
5. Regulatory framework for non profit community chargers - process, obligations and rights of both the LAs and the citizens/community, cut red tape - waiving constructions permits regarding chargers, streamlining getting power connection etc.
6. Regulatory framework (cut red tape with permits, streamlining of getting power), liberalisation and deregulation of private for profit charging network market

liamog

McGiver wrote: »

1. Mandate chargers - service stations, car parks, cinemas, malls, supermarkets, office blocks, estates, public service buildings - start with a low requirement and then gradually increase

This is in place and applies to all new planning permissions or significant renovations

McGiver

liamog wrote:

This is in place and applies to all new planning permissions or significant renovations

I'm aware but that's not enough - look at my list. And that's before you tackle existing builds.

I have to look at the details of the bill but I wouldn't be surprised if installing 1 charger in an estate would check the checkbox. If so then it's totally pointless.

This government is not ambitious enough, which is ironic given that the Greens are in the coalition.

liamog

McGiver wrote: »

I'm aware but that's not enough - look at my list. And that's before you tackle existing builds.

I have to look at the details of the bill but I wouldn't be surprised if installing 1 charger in an estate would check the checkbox. If so then it's totally pointless.

Maybe look at the legislation then, for individual properties ducting must be provided for future installation of a charging point. For multi unit dwellings and commercial units the requirement is 1 of every 10 spaces.
It's pretty much impossible to compel a retrospective requirement on existing properties.

innrain

McGiver wrote: »

That scheme is mediocre and not good enough:
- It's only for 1000 charges - laughingly small and inadequate number in grand scheme of things
- Local authorities are skint, won't pay the remaining 25% (it's a broader decentralisation issue in Ireland)
- And most importantly, there's no legal obligation for the LA to install it if you request it, there is no regulatory framework with regards to such installations and there is no "right to a plug" etc.

We need solid legislation around this just like in NL, NO and now also DE pronto.

This grant for local communities was not used as far as I'm aware. I hope we're speaking about the same grant https://www.seai.ie/grants/electric-vehicle-grants/public-charge-point/
The grant is for LCs to implement schemes where they will charge the residents for charging, which is a very good thing in theory. However, no council applied for it. I contacted DLRCOCO last year about it.
After a couple of emails where they've send me to ESB then to SEAI to apply myself. I realized they don't know what is about so sent documentation links. Weeks later I got this email.

There are grants available to any local authority towards the cost of installing an EV unit for 75% or €5,000 which ever is the smaller amount.

For the four Dublin LA’s, there is a steering group currently working towards creating three things:
1. Current installations, utilisations and future requirements for EV chargers throughout Dublin
2. Guidelines that we can use to allow for safe and consistent installations both within the LA’s and for private developers
3. Tender documents and specifications that will allow us to purchase units and have them installed, maintained and usable by all EV owners across the entirety of Dublin
This does not stop us creating EV Charging Unit enabled locations which will reduce the install time needed once the 3 items above are finalised.
As the grant is a retrospective grant, any delays in receiving this money will have no impact on when the EV charging unit is itself installed.
I hope this information will answer any questions you have on this matter.

That was last year. Stalling at its best. The grant was announce in Aug 2019. 1000 units over 5 years. But the councils cannot apply for more than 20 at once. They have to finalize the batch first then reapply for another 20.
In fairness to DLRCOCO they are one of the most EV friendly of the Dublin councils. They've just installed 10x chargers at a newly opened park (not yet operational). However, they'll be free to charge so not really in the scheme. And they'll be in a car park which operates 9-5 in winter. So def not for residents.

the_amazing_raisin

That's the grant I was speaking about, yes I remember hearing that there was very little uptake on it

Definitely stalling coming from the councils, they don't like taking on any projects that will cost them money to maintain so they constantly try to do nothing

The batches of 20 thing is nonsense IMO, sounds like it was cooked up to deliberately slow applications. I suppose it could be justified in that no single council can apply for 1000 chargers at once and thus block all other councils, but a simple allocation of funding per council would solve this

Gumbo

Every new apartment block has the ducting and facilitate communication chargers in the future now a days.

innrain

Is this not due to the EU directive on the energy performance of buildings ?
Directive amending the Energy Performance of Buildings Directive (2018/844/EU)

The same directive that says:
"7. Member States shall provide for measures in order to simplify the deployment of recharging points in new and existing residential and non-residential buildings and address possible regulatory barriers, including permitting and approval procedures, without prejudice to the property and tenancy law of the Member States."
Did anybody moved a finger here?

McGiver

innrain wrote:

That was last year. Stalling at its best. The grant was announce in Aug 2019. 1000 units over 5 years. But the councils cannot apply for more than 20 at once. They have to finalize the batch first then reapply for another 20. In fairness to DLRCOCO they are one of the most EV friendly of the Dublin councils. They've just installed 10x chargers at a newly opened park (not yet operational). However, they'll be free to charge so not really in the scheme. And they'll be in a car park which operates 9-5 in winter. So def not for residents.

Wow. Wasn't aware. So it's worse than I thought.

This government has no EV strategy - zero none.

So I insist that huge set of measures is required on legislative level to kick start any serious infrastructure deployment. It won't happen without that - too much red tape one hand and nothing mandated on the other.

WTF are the Greens going.... Wait, sleeping or fighting each other.

McGiver

liamog wrote:

Maybe look at the legislation then, for individual properties ducting must be provided for future installation of a charging point. For multi unit dwellings and commercial units the requirement is 1 of every 10 spaces. It's pretty much impossible to compel a retrospective requirement on existing properties.

10% won't cut it and it's not aligned with the 2030 goal, at all. Not good enough.

Also, there's no legislation around right to the plug basically requiring the management and or local authority to install charger when request by the resident. That would sort out existing properties. It just needs regulation, that's all. Nothing is impossible. Go look at Norway, Netherlands or even Austria.

liamog

McGiver wrote: »

Also, there's no legislation around right to the plug basically requiring the management and or local authority to install charger when request by the resident. That would sort out existing properties. It just needs regulation, that's all. Nothing is impossible. Go look at Norway, Netherlands or even Austria.

It's very difficult in this country to compel a land/property owner to do something without it being attached to a planning permission for a change. We have strong protections for historical reasons.

the_amazing_raisin

liamog wrote: »

It's very difficult in this country to compel a land/property owner to do something without it being attached to a planning permission for a change. We have strong protections for historical reasons.

Make it a requirement for a house sale or rental that it either has a dedicated space cabled for a charger or has access to public charging

Gumbo

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

Make it a requirement for a house sale or rental that it either has a dedicated space cabled for a charger or has access to public charging

You talking about new builds or existing stock?
All. We builds have the ducting in place to install, including apartments to a dedicated location within the apartment parking where the OMC have ownership.

innrain

liamog wrote: »

It's very difficult in this country to compel a land/property owner to do something without it being attached to a planning permission for a change. We have strong protections for historical reasons.

The issues is more for the shared spaces. You may own a parking space but the cable passes through a communal one and you need approval from the property assoc. I have two years since I opened the discussion with the owners association. The lack of best practice lets the property management company be in charge. Not always having owners best interest at heart. The same for houses at councils mercy. I think here is the place where gov should step in. Make sure if one wants to install a charger there is a framework in place to make it happen. California is a good example.

They said that are going to launch a sort of grant for this situations but I won't hold my breath. Other European countries have these grants for retrofitting cables into car parks. The regs for the new builds are there not because our gov designed them, but because it was a requirement from the EU.

the_amazing_raisin

Gumbo wrote: »

You talking about new builds or existing stock?
All. We builds have the ducting in place to install, including apartments to a dedicated location within the apartment parking where the OMC have ownership.

Existing stock as well, they've already brought in a requirement for BER certs for house sales so they could update having EV charging as part of that as a starting point

As time goes on you can make a requirement that rentals have a BER above a certain level and slowly raise the requirements

Gumbo

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

Existing stock as well, they've already brought in a requirement for BER certs for house sales so they could update having EV charging as part of that as a starting point

As time goes on you can make a requirement that rentals have a BER above a certain level and slowly raise the requirements

Not a chance. You can’t and shouldn’t retrospectively apply rules to existing stock.

Either way, it will just add the cost of the install to the cost of the house sale.

How can you force a homeowner to provide public chargers in the public domain?

How can you force holes that have no dedicated space to have a dedicated charger or cabling that has to cross a public path or land owned by an OMC?

the_amazing_raisin

Gumbo wrote: »

Not a chance. You can’t and shouldn’t retrospectively apply rules to existing stock.

Either way, it will just add the cost of the install to the cost of the house sale.

How can you force a homeowner to provide public chargers in the public domain?

How can you force holes that have no dedicated space to have a dedicated charger or cabling that has to cross a public path or land owned by an OMC?

Why not? BER was applied retrospectively, and if you want electrical work done then your house has to be up to current standards. This happens all the time

Start with house sales as it's easiest to police, then move on to commercial rentals since very often you'll have a single company renting out entire apartment blocks. Finally move on to private rentals

As for councils, that's easiest of all. Grant an exemption from property taxes for any properties that don't have dedicated parking and don't have access to public chargers. As soon as councils see their tax revenue disappear they'll hurry to install chargers in every estate

Gumbo

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

Why not? BER was applied retrospectively, and if you want electrical work done then your house has to be up to current standards. This happens all the time

Start with house sales as it's easiest to police, then move on to commercial rentals since very often you'll have a single company renting out entire apartment blocks. Finally move on to private rentals

As for councils, that's easiest of all. Grant an exemption from property taxes for any properties that don't have dedicated parking and don't have access to public chargers. As soon as councils see their tax revenue disappear they'll hurry to install chargers in every estate

BER is required but the result is the result. You don’t have to spend €2k in order to sell the house.

Electrical works can be carried out while keeping the existing the same. The new works have to be Up to current standards unless there’s a non conformance.

Public chargers are accessible to everyone in the country at the moment. They are in public places. Councils are not utility providers. You don’t see them building petrol stations everywhere.

innrain

Gumbo wrote: »

Councils are not utility providers. You don’t see them building petrol stations everywhere.

But they install street lighting just to think of an example. Councils are supposed to serve de community. Means are irrelevant.

Del2005

McGiver wrote: »

Also, there's no legislation around right to the plug basically requiring the management and or local authority to install charger when request by the resident. That would sort out existing properties. It just needs regulation, that's all. Nothing is impossible. Go look at Norway, Netherlands or even Austria.

How will this work for an OMC? If I request a charge point, I've unassigned parking, they can't dig up the place to install 1 charge point as what will happen when the next person requests a charger in a few months? They'll have to dig up my whole complex and lay the cables and access points in 1 go and no OMC will get that passed at an AGM. There needs to be grants for OMCs to be able to do the whole complex not forcing them to install single units.

innrain wrote: »

But they install street lighting just to think of an example. Councils are supposed to serve de community. Means are irrelevant.

You don't need a car so the government don't need to supply you with fuel. You need street lighting, unless your Swiss, and public transport which the government funds.

Gumbo

innrain wrote: »

But they install street lighting just to think of an example. Councils are supposed to serve de community. Means are irrelevant.

Public lighting would be a liability issue. The lighting of pathways etc
Providing fuel for a private motorist, even if it was to profit from it, can’t happen until the government provides funding and legislation for it.

Many councils have already provided street light charging, fingal for example in Blanchardstown and swords, DLRCC on Dun Laoghaire.

Bit to try mandate the provision of home charging are mandatory for selling is nonsense.

Gumbo

Del2005 wrote: »

How will this work for an OMC? If I request a charge point, I've unassigned parking, they can't dig up the place to install 1 charge point as what will happen when the next person requests a charger in a few months? They'll have to dig up my whole complex and lay the cables and access points in 1 go and no OMC will get that passed at an AGM. There needs to be grants for OMCs to be able to do the whole complex not forcing them to install single units.

All the apartment developments I’m involved in goes something like this.
The developer has installed ductwork to particular locations and space on the meter and provisions for power supply.

Once an OMC take over, they can decide to introduce communal charging. Think if it like EasyGo putting a machine in there, basement car park for example, and only the residents get a fob. You tag and charge. And you are billed as the tag is connected to you.

innrain

Del2005 wrote: »

You don't need a car so the government don't need to supply you with fuel. You need street lighting, unless your Swiss, and public transport which the government funds.

Nobody says to supply you with fuel, but to allow you to install a charging port, which is not bigger deal than an outdoor socket.

innrain

Gumbo wrote: »

All the apartment developments I’m involved in goes something like this.
The developer has installed ductwork to particular locations and space on the meter and provisions for power supply.

I think soon is going to be every parking space

5. With regard to new residential buildings and residential buildings undergoing major renovation, with more than ten parking spaces, Member States shall ensure the installation of ducting infrastructure, namely conduits for electric cables, for every parking space to enable the installation, at a later stage, of recharging points for electric vehicles, where:
(a)the car park is located inside the building, and, for major renovations, renovation measures include the car park or the electric infrastructure of the building; or
(b)the car park is physically adjacent to the building, and, for major renovations, renovation measures include the car park or the electrical infrastructure of the car park.
6. Member States may decide not to apply paragraphs 2, 3 and 5 to specific categories of buildings where:
(a)with regard to paragraphs 2 and 5, building permit applications or equivalent applications have been submitted by 10 March 2021;
(b)the ducting infrastructure required would rely on micro isolated systems or the buildings are situated in the outermost regions within the meaning of Article 349 TFEU, if this would lead to substantial problems for the operation of the local energy system and would endanger the stability of the local grid;
(c)the cost of the recharging and ducting installations exceeds 7 % of the total cost of the major renovation of the building;
(d)a public building is already covered by comparable requirements according to the transposition of Directive 2014/94/EU.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv%3AOJ.L_.2018.156.01.0075.01.ENG
Article 8

Gumbo

innrain wrote: »

Nobody says to supply you with fuel, but to allow you to install a charging port, which is not bigger deal than an outdoor socket.

The council don’t stop you installing an EVSE.
I’m confused with your grievance now?

Gumbo

innrain wrote: »

I think soon is going to be every parking space
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv%3AOJ.L_.2018.156.01.0075.01.ENG
Article 8

The new Part L Building Regulations will enforce it.

New Builds Page 26 and major renovations Page 37 -

https://assets.gov.ie/46152/6089b82620b94fef89f3b1bc0b568127.pdf

Del2005

Gumbo wrote: »

All the apartment developments I’m involved in goes something like this.
The developer has installed ductwork to particular locations and space on the meter and provisions for power supply.

Once an OMC take over, they can decide to introduce communal charging. Think if it like EasyGo putting a machine in there, basement car park for example, and only the residents get a fob. You tag and charge. And you are billed as the tag is connected to you.

The development is over 15 years old there's no duct work or any provisions made for charging EVs on site, we have no basements or gates and it's unassigned parking.

innrain wrote: »

Nobody says to supply you with fuel, but to allow you to install a charging port, which is not bigger deal than an outdoor socket.

I'm not asking to be supplied with fuel I need somewhere to charge and it's not as simple as installing 1 outdoor socket. My apartment and meter box are nowhere near the parking spots. So they'll have to dig up the complex to run a cable to a parking location if I get an EV and then install a pedestal. But they can't just dig up the complex for 1 install they'll have to dig it up and lay cables, or a least ducts, to all the other parking spaces which is where the costs add up and doesn't make it viable for OMCs to install EV charging infrastructure in legacy developments.

innrain

Del2005 wrote: »

I'm not asking to be supplied with fuel I need somewhere to charge and it's not as simple as installing 1 outdoor socket. My apartment and meter box are nowhere near the parking spots. So they'll have to dig up the complex to run a cable to a parking location if I get an EV and then install a pedestal. But they can't just dig up the complex for 1 install they'll have to dig it up and lay cables, or a least ducts, to all the other parking spaces which is where the costs add up and doesn't make it viable for OMCs to install EV charging infrastructure in legacy developments.

It is clear that there is no one solution fits all. And while they have now in place building reqs for new build and major refurbishments I'd say a regulation for other cases are needed. Maybe in your case even the major rebuild won't cover it as there are exceptions when it is not economically viable. Hence the local councils grants to have charging infrastructure in public accessible parking

Our Dáil declared climate emergency 2 year ago. Did this emergency transferred into action?
It is crystal clear that we can't keep burning stuff. Sooner or later current form of engines will cease to exist. So we have to move forward. We have to find solutions not problems

"Unallocated parking space" why? how can be solved. If the number of parking spaces are greater than the number of units allocate 1 per unit and leave the rest float. If the ratio is smaller than communal solution need to be sought. And here the regulations come in handy. Because right now OMC will say we don't have enough parking spaces so we can't allocate. If the regs say "you have to" then it is a liability issue. Read the California example I posted earlier.
In the case you describe is clear that the supply won't come from your apt meter but if you would install an outdoor socket it will be kinda the same thing. Impractical but in principal the same. Without a framework considering these problems the OMC even willing to do something will be unable to make a decision.

mfceiling

64 cents for AC charging is ridiculous. I hope it remains unused.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121872253#Comment_121872253

Agreed, and I'm not for one minute expecting it to be free