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Local Authority / Council Chargers

  • 08-06-2020 2:28pm
    #1
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭ AndyBoBandy


    In Skerries, there's an eCars twin 22kWh AC which I've used a few times, but on the opposite side of the public toilets, theres a twin AC community charger. The sign says only 1 of the spaces is reserved for the community car (which is usually parked there), and the other one just mentions it's an EV charger. I plugged in one day and got 3.7kWh from it, no card or app needed, and just this weekend I saw a Leaf using it, so what's the deal with these community chargers? It's not listed on PlugShare. Are they game ball to use?


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Comments

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 58,862 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    I just used the ESB one over in Skerries (south beach), first time the dog had seen a beach in three months. The car took in nearly 60kWh :D

    I can't see why you shouldn't use that community charger apart from its lousy charge rate. You'd need to be parked there for the whole day (or overnight) to make any difference...

    "Wind is Ireland's oil" - An Taoiseach, 25/05/2022



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭ AndyBoBandy


    we just went up for a walk as well, and the 2 eCars ones were busy, so said I'd try the community one (just for sh1ts & giggles as public charging is still a novelty for us)and only then realised it's slow rate.

    Is it worth adding these to Plugshare? I know their not going to get you any great charge fast (for me in the SR+, it would be about 30km/h), but it would do in an emergency, or at least while waiting for one of the eCars beside it to become available..


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,716 ✭✭✭ Silent Running


    Yeah but there's a big section of society which is being excluded from doing that because they don't have a driveway. And there isn't always an SCP in a convenient location to leave the car on charge

    This is why I think BEVs and REXs beat PHEVs IMO, they have fast charging and proper sized batteries, so if you're in a situation where you need to rely on fast charging then you can realistically do it

    There are solutions for drivers without a driveway.

    Apartment dwellers should be able to set up chargers in their community and management companies should be encouraged/forced to facilitate this.

    Lamp post chargers should be commonplace at this stage. We're not there yet, but we should be.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,347 ✭✭✭✭ MJohnston


    I was walking round a nearby apartment complex, Honey Park in Deansgrange, the other day, and there are loads of little pedestal chargers all around that place. They’re outside of townhouses and apartment blocks, and they’re very non-disruptively placed.


  • Moderators Posts: 11,978 ✭✭✭✭ Black_Knight


    There are solutions for drivers without a driveway.

    Apartment dwellers should be able to set up chargers in their community and management companies should be encouraged/forced to facilitate this.

    Lamp post chargers should be commonplace at this stage. We're not there yet, but we should be.

    Paul from easygo discussed this at the last ievoa meeting. Said it's just not worth it. The pay off is over 10+ years at the moment, and no one is willing to pay for it up front.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 165 ✭✭ bodgerfederer


    MJohnston wrote: »
    I was walking round a nearby apartment complex, Honey Park in Deansgrange, the other day, and there are loads of little pedestal chargers all around that place. They’re outside of townhouses and apartment blocks, and they’re very non-disruptively placed.

    Many in honey park will be disgusted that you’ve lumped them into deansgrange and not dun laoghaire😀.

    The houses are pre-cabled up and ready for a simple pedestal install.
    Not sure about the apartments though- their parking spaces are actually underground, I can’t imagine that they all have access to their own charger.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,347 ✭✭✭✭ MJohnston


    Many in honey park will be disgusted that you’ve lumped them into deansgrange and not dun laoghaire😀.

    The houses are pre-cabled up and ready for a simple pedestal install.
    Not sure about the apartments though- their parking spaces are actually underground, I can’t imagine that they all have access to their own charger.

    Some of the apartment parking is on the surface, and is reserved I think.

    For apartment complexes like this, it would be super easy to install a few charging spots, even in an underground car park, and have a reservation system via an app so you can book a 12 hour block or something.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭ McGiver


    Paul from easygo discussed this at the last ievoa meeting. Said it's just not worth it. The pay off is over 10+ years at the moment, and no one is willing to pay for it up front.

    While this may be true, it's worth pointing out that Paul is an entrepreneur.

    Community chargers are setup by the local authorities in the Netherlands and Norway. Not by the private sector. They're are a public service not for profit.

    The biggest gains in infrastructure and EV uptake in Ireland can be made via legislation, I'm convinced.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,833 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin


    McGiver wrote: »
    While this may be true, it's worth pointing out that Paul is an entrepreneur.

    Community chargers are setup by the local authorities in the Netherlands and Norway. Not by the private sector. They're are a public service not for profit.

    The biggest gains in infrastructure and EV uptake in Ireland can be made via legislation, I'm convinced.

    They've already got a public charging grant for councils which pays 75% of the capital costs

    Let's say a council put forward a fairly measly €100k, and they get €300k in grants

    How many chargers could you get with €400k? At a fairly outrageous €1000 per charger, which seems about right considering how good county councils are at wasting money, that's 400 chargers, far more than what's available in most counties at the moment


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭ JohnC.


    They'll need to get suitable power to those chargers too. Not sure how much that might cost.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,833 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin


    JohnC. wrote: »
    They'll need to get suitable power to those chargers too. Not sure how much that might cost.

    Shouldn't cost much frankly, 10x 7kW chargers is the same as 4 or 5 houses so most likely wouldn't need infrastructure upgrades.

    In housing estates they could put them in banks near the ESB junction boxes so the cable runs and trenches would be minimal. And frankly councils should be able to get a decent rate for big contracts

    Councils could give a discount rate to residents for charging overnight to encourage usage when demand is low, that'll help balance the grid as well which is good


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭ McGiver


    They've already got a public charging grant for councils which pays 75% of the capital costs
    That scheme is mediocre and not good enough:
    - It's only for 1000 charges - laughingly small and inadequate number in grand scheme of things
    - Local authorities are skint, won't pay the remaining 25% (it's a broader decentralisation issue in Ireland)
    - And most importantly, there's no legal obligation for the LA to install it if you request it, there is no regulatory framework with regards to such installations and there is no "right to a plug" etc.

    We need solid legislation around this just like in NL, NO and now also DE pronto.

    1. Mandate chargers - service stations, car parks, cinemas, malls, supermarkets, office blocks, estates, public service buildings - start with a low requirement and then gradually increase
    2. Tax incentives for installing chargers by retail
    3. Tax incentives for installing chargers at workplaces
    4. Grants and tax incentives for installing chargers by local authorities
    5. Regulatory framework for non profit community chargers - process, obligations and rights of both the LAs and the citizens/community, cut red tape - waiving constructions permits regarding chargers, streamlining getting power connection etc.
    6. Regulatory framework (cut red tape with permits, streamlining of getting power), liberalisation and deregulation of private for profit charging network market


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,084 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    McGiver wrote: »
    1. Mandate chargers - service stations, car parks, cinemas, malls, supermarkets, office blocks, estates, public service buildings - start with a low requirement and then gradually increase

    This is in place and applies to all new planning permissions or significant renovations


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭ McGiver


    liamog wrote:
    This is in place and applies to all new planning permissions or significant renovations
    I'm aware but that's not enough - look at my list. And that's before you tackle existing builds.

    I have to look at the details of the bill but I wouldn't be surprised if installing 1 charger in an estate would check the checkbox. If so then it's totally pointless.

    This government is not ambitious enough, which is ironic given that the Greens are in the coalition.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,084 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    McGiver wrote: »
    I'm aware but that's not enough - look at my list. And that's before you tackle existing builds.

    I have to look at the details of the bill but I wouldn't be surprised if installing 1 charger in an estate would check the checkbox. If so then it's totally pointless.

    Maybe look at the legislation then, for individual properties ducting must be provided for future installation of a charging point. For multi unit dwellings and commercial units the requirement is 1 of every 10 spaces.
    It's pretty much impossible to compel a retrospective requirement on existing properties.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭ innrain


    McGiver wrote: »
    That scheme is mediocre and not good enough:
    - It's only for 1000 charges - laughingly small and inadequate number in grand scheme of things
    - Local authorities are skint, won't pay the remaining 25% (it's a broader decentralisation issue in Ireland)
    - And most importantly, there's no legal obligation for the LA to install it if you request it, there is no regulatory framework with regards to such installations and there is no "right to a plug" etc.

    We need solid legislation around this just like in NL, NO and now also DE pronto.
    This grant for local communities was not used as far as I'm aware. I hope we're speaking about the same grant https://www.seai.ie/grants/electric-vehicle-grants/public-charge-point/
    The grant is for LCs to implement schemes where they will charge the residents for charging, which is a very good thing in theory. However, no council applied for it. I contacted DLRCOCO last year about it.
    After a couple of emails where they've send me to ESB then to SEAI to apply myself. I realized they don't know what is about so sent documentation links. Weeks later I got this email.
    There are grants available to any local authority towards the cost of installing an EV unit for 75% or €5,000 which ever is the smaller amount.

    For the four Dublin LA’s, there is a steering group currently working towards creating three things:
    1. Current installations, utilisations and future requirements for EV chargers throughout Dublin
    2. Guidelines that we can use to allow for safe and consistent installations both within the LA’s and for private developers
    3. Tender documents and specifications that will allow us to purchase units and have them installed, maintained and usable by all EV owners across the entirety of Dublin
    This does not stop us creating EV Charging Unit enabled locations which will reduce the install time needed once the 3 items above are finalised.
    As the grant is a retrospective grant, any delays in receiving this money will have no impact on when the EV charging unit is itself installed.
    I hope this information will answer any questions you have on this matter.
    That was last year. Stalling at its best. The grant was announce in Aug 2019. 1000 units over 5 years. But the councils cannot apply for more than 20 at once. They have to finalize the batch first then reapply for another 20.
    In fairness to DLRCOCO they are one of the most EV friendly of the Dublin councils. They've just installed 10x chargers at a newly opened park (not yet operational). However, they'll be free to charge so not really in the scheme. And they'll be in a car park which operates 9-5 in winter. So def not for residents.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,833 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin


    That's the grant I was speaking about, yes I remember hearing that there was very little uptake on it

    Definitely stalling coming from the councils, they don't like taking on any projects that will cost them money to maintain so they constantly try to do nothing

    The batches of 20 thing is nonsense IMO, sounds like it was cooked up to deliberately slow applications. I suppose it could be justified in that no single council can apply for 1000 chargers at once and thus block all other councils, but a simple allocation of funding per council would solve this


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,290 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Gumbo


    Every new apartment block has the ducting and facilitate communication chargers in the future now a days.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭ innrain


    Is this not due to the EU directive on the energy performance of buildings ?
    Directive amending the Energy Performance of Buildings Directive (2018/844/EU)

    The same directive that says:
    "7. Member States shall provide for measures in order to simplify the deployment of recharging points in new and existing residential and non-residential buildings and address possible regulatory barriers, including permitting and approval procedures, without prejudice to the property and tenancy law of the Member States."
    Did anybody moved a finger here?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭ McGiver


    innrain wrote:
    That was last year. Stalling at its best. The grant was announce in Aug 2019. 1000 units over 5 years. But the councils cannot apply for more than 20 at once. They have to finalize the batch first then reapply for another 20. In fairness to DLRCOCO they are one of the most EV friendly of the Dublin councils. They've just installed 10x chargers at a newly opened park (not yet operational). However, they'll be free to charge so not really in the scheme. And they'll be in a car park which operates 9-5 in winter. So def not for residents.

    Wow. Wasn't aware. So it's worse than I thought.

    This government has no EV strategy - zero none.

    So I insist that huge set of measures is required on legislative level to kick start any serious infrastructure deployment. It won't happen without that - too much red tape one hand and nothing mandated on the other.

    WTF are the Greens going.... Wait, sleeping or fighting each other.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭ McGiver


    liamog wrote:
    Maybe look at the legislation then, for individual properties ducting must be provided for future installation of a charging point. For multi unit dwellings and commercial units the requirement is 1 of every 10 spaces. It's pretty much impossible to compel a retrospective requirement on existing properties.
    10% won't cut it and it's not aligned with the 2030 goal, at all. Not good enough.

    Also, there's no legislation around right to the plug basically requiring the management and or local authority to install charger when request by the resident. That would sort out existing properties. It just needs regulation, that's all. Nothing is impossible. Go look at Norway, Netherlands or even Austria.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,084 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    McGiver wrote: »
    Also, there's no legislation around right to the plug basically requiring the management and or local authority to install charger when request by the resident. That would sort out existing properties. It just needs regulation, that's all. Nothing is impossible. Go look at Norway, Netherlands or even Austria.

    It's very difficult in this country to compel a land/property owner to do something without it being attached to a planning permission for a change. We have strong protections for historical reasons.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,833 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin


    liamog wrote: »
    It's very difficult in this country to compel a land/property owner to do something without it being attached to a planning permission for a change. We have strong protections for historical reasons.

    Make it a requirement for a house sale or rental that it either has a dedicated space cabled for a charger or has access to public charging


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,290 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Gumbo


    Make it a requirement for a house sale or rental that it either has a dedicated space cabled for a charger or has access to public charging

    You talking about new builds or existing stock?
    All. We builds have the ducting in place to install, including apartments to a dedicated location within the apartment parking where the OMC have ownership.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭ innrain


    liamog wrote: »
    It's very difficult in this country to compel a land/property owner to do something without it being attached to a planning permission for a change. We have strong protections for historical reasons.
    The issues is more for the shared spaces. You may own a parking space but the cable passes through a communal one and you need approval from the property assoc. I have two years since I opened the discussion with the owners association. The lack of best practice lets the property management company be in charge. Not always having owners best interest at heart. The same for houses at councils mercy. I think here is the place where gov should step in. Make sure if one wants to install a charger there is a framework in place to make it happen. California is a good example.

    They said that are going to launch a sort of grant for this situations but I won't hold my breath. Other European countries have these grants for retrofitting cables into car parks. The regs for the new builds are there not because our gov designed them, but because it was a requirement from the EU.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,833 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin


    Gumbo wrote: »
    You talking about new builds or existing stock?
    All. We builds have the ducting in place to install, including apartments to a dedicated location within the apartment parking where the OMC have ownership.

    Existing stock as well, they've already brought in a requirement for BER certs for house sales so they could update having EV charging as part of that as a starting point

    As time goes on you can make a requirement that rentals have a BER above a certain level and slowly raise the requirements


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,290 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Gumbo


    Existing stock as well, they've already brought in a requirement for BER certs for house sales so they could update having EV charging as part of that as a starting point

    As time goes on you can make a requirement that rentals have a BER above a certain level and slowly raise the requirements

    Not a chance. You can’t and shouldn’t retrospectively apply rules to existing stock.

    Either way, it will just add the cost of the install to the cost of the house sale.

    How can you force a homeowner to provide public chargers in the public domain?

    How can you force holes that have no dedicated space to have a dedicated charger or cabling that has to cross a public path or land owned by an OMC?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,833 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Not a chance. You can’t and shouldn’t retrospectively apply rules to existing stock.

    Either way, it will just add the cost of the install to the cost of the house sale.

    How can you force a homeowner to provide public chargers in the public domain?

    How can you force holes that have no dedicated space to have a dedicated charger or cabling that has to cross a public path or land owned by an OMC?

    Why not? BER was applied retrospectively, and if you want electrical work done then your house has to be up to current standards. This happens all the time

    Start with house sales as it's easiest to police, then move on to commercial rentals since very often you'll have a single company renting out entire apartment blocks. Finally move on to private rentals

    As for councils, that's easiest of all. Grant an exemption from property taxes for any properties that don't have dedicated parking and don't have access to public chargers. As soon as councils see their tax revenue disappear they'll hurry to install chargers in every estate


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,290 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Gumbo


    Why not? BER was applied retrospectively, and if you want electrical work done then your house has to be up to current standards. This happens all the time

    Start with house sales as it's easiest to police, then move on to commercial rentals since very often you'll have a single company renting out entire apartment blocks. Finally move on to private rentals

    As for councils, that's easiest of all. Grant an exemption from property taxes for any properties that don't have dedicated parking and don't have access to public chargers. As soon as councils see their tax revenue disappear they'll hurry to install chargers in every estate

    BER is required but the result is the result. You don’t have to spend €2k in order to sell the house.

    Electrical works can be carried out while keeping the existing the same. The new works have to be Up to current standards unless there’s a non conformance.

    Public chargers are accessible to everyone in the country at the moment. They are in public places. Councils are not utility providers. You don’t see them building petrol stations everywhere.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭ innrain


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Councils are not utility providers. You don’t see them building petrol stations everywhere.
    But they install street lighting just to think of an example. Councils are supposed to serve de community. Means are irrelevant.


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