Engine seized

bear1

So it has been a while since I've had to create a post and I'm glad it has to be on my birthday.
Had the timing belt kit done a few weeks back and the valve cover gasket replaced alongside new spark plugs the other week.
Driving home last night and the car crapped itself on the motorway while going for an overtake.
Literally banged itself to death.
Engine light, oil light everything came on and it simply died.
Before it died the engine started knocking like mad.
Had it towed to the workshop where it was done, and demanded they recheck everything they did as it was too coincidental.
Waiting now for the diagnosis but the oil was all gone and the coolant at a minimum.
Safe to say the engine is knackered.
But they mentioned that the code on the ECU shows that the timing belt sensor isn't working and that's the issue..
Seems unlikely to me.
Thoughts?

scannerd

Well it might or might not be related to work done, but you might never know, If the belt has moved (broke or slipped) the it might have been installed poorly, but it can also be result of other mechanical failure taking the belt out. Not sure what sensor / codes will tell you. You are relying on the honesty of this shop now. how old / how many miles?

bear1

scannerd wrote: »

Well it might or might not be related to work done, but you might never know, If the belt has moved (broke or slipped) the it might have been installed poorly, but it can also be result of other mechanical failure taking the belt out. Not sure what sensor / codes will tell you. You are relying on the honesty of this shop now. how old / how many miles?

Belt is still intact, the boxer engine seems pretty straightforward when it comes to being able to see things easily.
It's 14 years old and with close to 340k on the clock.
All filters, oil, pulleys etc were changed.
Then I had the valve cover gasket replaced as it was leaking oil and the spark plugs changed too.
The latter was only done on Thursday.
So I'm pretty skeptical that the car suddenly crapped itself.
2.5 outback

Damienmac

With all coolant and oil dropped out of the car, it sounds like there was serious mechanical failure. If not the timing belt snapping/slipping, then it would take something big like the conrod breaking to cause that.

AFAIK no engine relies on a sensor to time mechanical parts to the point where it would come apart like that with a broken sensor. It just might not run well or start with a bad sensor.

sligopaul

Do some early boxer engines have camshaft issues that can write off the engine

Roger the cabin boy

sligopaul wrote: »

Do some early boxer engines have camshaft issues that can write off the engine

Knocking?

Oil pump gone perhaps, causing a seize.

Perhaps they didn't use the right oil (unlikely) or perhaps they didn't fill up the water reservoir (unlikely).

I wouldn't be sure it's timing belt related. Probs more to do with the gasket replacement.

Then again, going at old cars with spanners is the cause of many secondary failures as the stresses and strains move around due to the maintenance.

New engine. Or new car. 350k owes you nothing tbh.

antodeco

Someway unrelated, but does insurance cover things like engine failures?

Roger the cabin boy

Damienmac wrote: »

With all coolant and oil dropped out of the car, it sounds like there was serious mechanical failure. If not the timing belt snapping/slipping, then it would take something big like the conrod breaking to cause that.

AFAIK no engine relies on a sensor to time mechanical parts to the point where it would come apart like that with a broken sensor. It just might not run well or start with a bad sensor.

Agreed.

No oil or water? Where did it go and how?
Is there holes in the engine?

Or was it there to begin with, although you would expect oil/water lights to come on if not.

bear1

Update. Engine gone.
Head is destroyed but they haven't been able to determine why.
No oil or water under the car when I checked and the exhaust was dry.
So I'm at a loss as to what has actually happened to a car which showed no signs something was up.
I still feel they have made a mistake somewhere but no way for me to back that up.
Such a pity as it was a great car.

biko

Happy birthday bear1!

Too bad about the car.
I'd go back to the mechanic, but without proof and considering you have been driving for weeks they'll probably just shrug it off.

With the age and mileage you'll just have to take it on the chin and look for a new car.

hi5

Where did the oil go, it must have gone somewhere?
Sounds to me like you developed a massive oil leak when driving and that caused the engine to seize/disintegrate.

Mjolnir

Was it a diesel subaru by any chance op?
If it was it's far from uncommon, they've a nasty habit of sh1tting themselves. Camshaft usually the culprit.

bear1

Mjolnir wrote: »

Was it a diesel subaru by any chance op?
If it was it's far from uncommon, they've a nasty habit of sh1tting themselves. Camshaft usually the culprit.

No it was a 2.5 petrol.
Seems that the engine simply failed. But as to the why I couldn't tell you.
Going to the mechanic at 5 to hear everything and I'll update again.

CJhaughey

EJ25 Turbo's were known to give problems, I am not so sure about the naturally aspirated versions.
Head Gaskets are a known issue in them, yours possibly failed and blew all the coolant out?
https://youtu.be/I2ROWnw82L4

CoBo55

Mjolnir wrote: »

Was it a diesel subaru by any chance op?
If it was it's far from uncommon, they've a nasty habit of sh1tting themselves. Camshaft usually the culprit.

Dmf was the weakest link which started the domino effect.

CJhaughey

EE20 was the diesel engine, 2.0 litre. OP says the engine is a 2.5 which means its most likely the EJ25 Petrol which have known issues with head gaskets.

bear1

CJhaughey wrote: »

EE20 was the diesel engine, 2.0 litre. OP says the engine is a 2.5 which means its most likely the EJ25 Petrol which have known issues with head gaskets.

Well in the end the bid end failed.
Pistons went to **** and that was the end of that.
So the car is now essentially scrap.
But with literally no warning, it was completely fine the night before after we did a 5 hour trip in it.
No overheating, no performance issues and was going well.
What can you do I suppose...
Already have the next one lined up as I can't be without a car

CoBo55

That engine was definitely ran without oil I'd reckon it wasn't filled properly after the service, if it was filled at all.

bear1

CoBo55 wrote: »

That engine was definitely ran without oil I'd reckon it wasn't filled properly after the service, if it was filled at all.

God only knows but I'm pretty sure the garage ballsed it up and wants to distance themselves from it.
I don't have the energy to try and prove the whole thing so I'll just move on at this stage.
With two kids though you need a car.. hoping this Saturday.

galwaytt

worth putting a used engine into it, if the rest is good ?

greasepalm

Still got the sump bung in i assume,5hrs of hard driving on a motorway with high mileage engine that might be burning oil.

CoBo55

I think the op has the right attitude, let it go and get something else. If you have family commitments etc you really don't need the hassle of sourcing another engine and all the messing getting it fitted, phone calls, it won't start, the clutch doesn't fit, blah blah blah...

bear1

galwaytt wrote: »

worth putting a used engine into it, if the rest is good ?

The price of the engine outweighs the price of the car.
Unfortunately I couldn't risk (from experience) getting a donor engine from a car I know nothing about and then spending a fortune on getting it running right.
Things here work a bit differently than in Ireland.
All going well I'll have the replacement car on Saturday, completely different type of car but I'm like that.

krissovo

From the symptoms the only reasonable explanation is a slipped timing belt. Think about it, put your foot down for a overtake giving extra power & torque and the belt slipped which then destroyed the head.

I have had it happen twice, once on a E class with 400k's on the clock and the timing chain stretched and slipped when giving it welly. Only jumped a tooth but the damage was done. The other was a fairly low mileage MG ZR that the belt was fitted poorly and jumped teeth at high rev's so the engine literally exploded.

greasepalm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeEQKWJqZ0s

Guy:Incognito

CoBo55 wrote: »

, if it was filled at all.

Well that obviously didnt happen. Cars dont just drive )perfectly fine) for weeks with no oil in them .

CoBo55

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Well that obviously didnt happen. Cars dont just drive )perfectly fine) for weeks with no oil in them .

If there was only two litres put in and the mechanic was called away for a minute.. can easily happen, anyway it doesn't matter the damage has been done, and imo the op is doing the right thing.

Guy:Incognito

CoBo55 wrote: »

If there was only two litres put in and the mechanic was called away for a minute.. can easily happen, .

That would be this bit, thats why I didnt quote that.

CoBo55 wrote: »

l I'd reckon it wasn't filled properly after the service,.

CoBo55

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

That would be this bit, thats why I didnt quote that.

I don't know what you're at here but I think this thread has come to a natural end.

Guy:Incognito

CoBo55 wrote: »

I don't know what you're at here but I think this thread has come to a natural end.

Just ruling out the obvious , that it didnt run for weeks with no oil. No sense the op pick up something impossible and running with it. Itd weaken his case if he is accusing them of something that clearly didnt happen is all.

selectamatic

Big end failure isn't unheard of on 2.5sti's so it'd be plausible for a similar failure to happen an n/a outback.

The lack of any oil under or in the engine is pretty puzzling tbh though. Could it have possibly been burning oil for the last good while? If it was leaking a drop I'm assuming you were having to keep it topped up? this might have hidden any oil burning problems as naturally the leak would be the prime suspect.

How much driving had been done since the work was done?

sumo12

bear1 wrote: »

Belt is still intact, the boxer engine seems pretty straightforward when it comes to being able to see things easily.
It's 14 years old and with close to 340k on the clock.
All filters, oil, pulleys etc were changed.
Then I had the valve cover gasket replaced as it was leaking oil and the spark plugs changed too.
The latter was only done on Thursday.
So I'm pretty skeptical that the car suddenly crapped itself.
2.5 outback

How long did you reasonably expect it to go on for...?

bear1

selectamatic wrote: »

Big end failure isn't unheard of on 2.5sti's so it'd be plausible for a similar failure to happen an n/a outback.

The lack of any oil under or in the engine is pretty puzzling tbh though. Could it have possibly been burning oil for the last good while? If it was leaking a drop I'm assuming you were having to keep it topped up? this might have hidden any oil burning problems as naturally the leak would be the prime suspect.

How much driving had been done since the work was done?

It wasn't burning any oil but to be fair I hadn't checked it for about 2/3 weeks but even then it was ok.
Coolant was also at the correct level.
I honestly can't explain where everything disappeared within a few days without any warning and no spots or residue on my garage floor.
I'd guess more or less 1.5k since the work was done.
Nothing to be honest.

bear1

sumo12 wrote: »

How long did you reasonably expect it to go on for...?

After replacing the timing belt, pulleys, water pump, valve cover gasket, spark plugs, all filters and oil plus new coolant within the last two months?
Quite a while to be honest...

zilog_jones

bear1 wrote: »

It wasn't burning any oil but to be fair I hadn't checked it for about 2/3 weeks but even then it was ok.
Coolant was also at the correct level.

How often were you doing long trips like this? I've seen cars that drank oil at motorway speeds (like about a litre per 400 km) whereas consumption at lower speeds was minimal. Maybe they used a lighter oil than what was previously in it, which could also increase consumption substantially if the piston rings/valve stem seals aren't in great shape (e.g. going from 10W40 to 5W30 oil).

As others have said, the oil had to go somewhere, though it wouldn't explain the coolant loss.

bear1

zilog_jones wrote: »

How often were you doing long trips like this? I've seen cars that drank oil at motorway speeds (like about a litre per 400 km) whereas consumption at lower speeds was minimal. Maybe they used a lighter oil than what was previously in it, which could also increase consumption substantially if the piston rings/valve stem seals aren't in great shape (e.g. going from 10W40 to 5W30 oil).

As others have said, the oil had to go somewhere, though it wouldn't explain the coolant loss.

This would have been it's first long trip since the work done to it since February.
So not used much considering the pandemic etc.