Tenant Documents

Gjp650

Hi,
Going to start letting an apartment and just wondering what I can/cannot ask prospective tenants and what I can/cannot put in the ad.

I want non-smokers, no pets, etc. Can I say that? I now cannot say that I want professionals?

Also, what documentation can I ask for from the people who I hope to give it to and when can I ask for this information:
- copy of passport
- copy of payslip
- copy of bank statement
- work reference
- landlord reference

I just want to be as careful as possible about the tenants.

thanks

dennyk

You can't specify "professionals" because it implies you will only accept tenants who have jobs, and it's illegal to discriminate against tenants on HAP or rent supplement. Similarly, asking for work references could be potentially problematic; while it's not illegal to ask, it would be illegal to refuse to rent to someone on the basis that they were in receipt of rent supplement or HAP, so if you were to request that and the potential tenant couldn't provide it, or what they did provide indicates they weren't making much money, and so you declined to rent to them, they might have a basis for a discrimination complaint. Threshold have some further information on the grounds on which you cannot discriminate when seeking a tenant.

If you are requesting copies of those documents from prospective tenants, be careful that you are fully complying with data protection regulations. The Data Protection Commission has some advice on the matter for landlords. Requesting all of those documents from every potential tenant who inquires about your property would most likely be a compliance violation, but collecting such information from your preferred candidate before making the final decision to enter into a tenancy agreement could be permitted.

Tenants who smoke and tenants with pets are not protected classes and you are free to prohibit either in your tenancy agreement and say as much in your listings. Just make certain that such prohibitions are clearly spelled out in your written tenancy agreement; just verbally telling a tenant about those rules will make them difficult or impossible to enforce if the written agreement is silent about them.

Mrs OBumble

For everything you ask for, you need clear reason for needing that document.

So - passport isn't necessary. But some form of official photographic identify (proving that the person you are looking at is the person who the bank statement and payslip are for) is reasonable.

PommieBast

Gjp650 wrote: »

- work reference

This is a dangerous one to ask for these days. Many US-based multinationals have blanket no-reference policies where they will refuse to confirm anything other than job title and dates of employment.

Peintre Celebre

Great country isn't it. Can't even say you want someone with a job and steady income for your hard earned house in fear of hurting someone's feelings.

Pkiernan

Ask for a €2500 deposit.
1 months rent doesnt cover anything any more.

tuisginideach

Pkiernan wrote: »

Ask for a €2500 deposit.
1 months rent doesnt cover anything any more.

You're 100% correct that 1 month's rent doesn't cover damage, but did Eoghan Murphy not bring in legislation restricting deposit to 1 month's rent? I thought he did. Maybe it never became law?

https://rebuildingireland.ie/news/residential-tenancies-boards-rent-index/
Minister Eoghan Murphy’s address at the publication of the Residential Tenancies Board’s Rent Index
for the Second Quarter of 2017 and Further Rental Sector Measures - Tuesday, 19th September 2017
A Deposit Protection Scheme will be established, operated by the Residential Tenancies Board, to handle deposits and to manage disputes efficiently so that decisions are delivered and money is returned quickly. Under this new scheme, the RTB will be able to define a deposit at one month’s rent.

Pkiernan

tuisginideach wrote: »

You're 100% correct that 1 month's rent doesn't cover damage, but did Eoghan Murphy not bring in legislation restricting deposit to 1 month's rent? I thought he did. Maybe it never became law?

https://rebuildingireland.ie/news/residential-tenancies-boards-rent-index/
Minister Eoghan Murphy’s address at the publication of the Residential Tenancies Board’s Rent Index
for the Second Quarter of 2017 and Further Rental Sector Measures - Tuesday, 19th September 2017
A Deposit Protection Scheme will be established, operated by the Residential Tenancies Board, to handle deposits and to manage disputes efficiently so that decisions are delivered and money is returned quickly. Under this new scheme, the RTB will be able to define a deposit at one month’s rent.

It's not law.

Though the RTB recommends 1 months rent.

Gjp650

PommieBast wrote: »

This is a dangerous one to ask for these days. Many US-based multinationals have blanket no-reference policies where they will refuse to confirm anything other than job title and dates of employment.

Thats all i really need, is confirmation of employment

Gjp650

dennyk wrote: »

You can't specify "professionals" because it implies you will only accept tenants who have jobs, and it's illegal to discriminate against tenants on HAP or rent supplement. Similarly, asking for work references could be potentially problematic; while it's not illegal to ask, it would be illegal to refuse to rent to someone on the basis that they were in receipt of rent supplement or HAP, so if you were to request that and the potential tenant couldn't provide it, or what they did provide indicates they weren't making much money, and so you declined to rent to them, they might have a basis for a discrimination complaint. Threshold have some further information on the grounds on which you cannot discriminate when seeking a tenant.

If you are requesting copies of those documents from prospective tenants, be careful that you are fully complying with data protection regulations. The Data Protection Commission has some advice on the matter for landlords. Requesting all of those documents from every potential tenant who inquires about your property would most likely be a compliance violation, but collecting such information from your preferred candidate before making the final decision to enter into a tenancy agreement could be permitted.

Tenants who smoke and tenants with pets are not protected classes and you are free to prohibit either in your tenancy agreement and say as much in your listings. Just make certain that such prohibitions are clearly spelled out in your written tenancy agreement; just verbally telling a tenant about those rules will make them difficult or impossible to enforce if the written agreement is silent about them.

Can i ask for the information from say the final 2 or 3? I wouldnt ask for everyone

Enter name here

Best thing to do, I always credit check final applicants, if they fall below what I'd expect then onto next applicant. I also charge 6 weeks deposit for unfurnished and 12 weeks for furnished. Once this mentioned I usually only end up with a short list of very good prospects.

PommieBast

Disclaimer: IANAL.

Gjp650 wrote: »

Can i ask for the information from say the final 2 or 3? I wouldnt ask for everyone

In the document linked to a few posts ago there is this bit (my emphasis) in the case study:

at the end of the process, only one applicant could be accepted as the new tenant and it was only in the case of that successful applicant that the full range of personal data was required.

So no, you can only ask someone you have otherwise already chosen in principle.

Caranica

Gjp650 wrote: »

Thats all i really need, is confirmation of employment

Confirmation of employment is not the safety net you think it is. We had 4 nurses in our house, yes they were employed but they absolutely trashed the place.

Deagol

Caranica wrote: »

Confirmation of employment is not the safety net you think it is. We had 4 nurses in our house, yes they were employed but they absolutely trashed the place.

It's a ridiculous thing to judge people by whether they have a job or not. I know lots of people who have jobs I wouldn't put next or near a property I owned. Conversely I know plenty people on various SW systems for one reason or another who would rather starve than miss a rent payment and would feel embarrassed to have anyone in the house unless it was spotless.

And think of it another way - what is more secure? HAP or employment? I've never heard of anyone getting laid off the HAP....

Gjp650

Enter name here wrote: »

Best thing to do, I always credit check final applicants, if they fall below what I'd expect then onto next applicant. I also charge 6 weeks deposit for unfurnished and 12 weeks for furnished. Once this mentioned I usually only end up with a short list of very good prospects.

Good tips. Ill try and get 2 months deposit as 3 might be bit much these days. Also, do you use solocheck for credit checks? Do i need the pps number to find the person?

Enter name here

Gjp650 wrote: »

Good tips. Ill try and get 2 months deposit as 3 might be bit much these days. Also, do you use solocheck for credit checks? Do i need the pps number to find the person?

I ask them to provide a copy from ICB and show them how to request it.

Enter name here

Mr.S wrote: »

Assume these are luxury lets? Requesting an ICB report is a new one.

Out of interest, how do you verify the information on the ICB report is genuine or correct?

Yes luxury apartments, and I cross check ICB report with the credit check I run. By asking them to supply a copy means they approving my request for a credit check.
Additionally most of my lets are to professionals relocating to Ireland and I provide fully furnished apartments while they seek more permanent accommodation. Most of my lets 3 to 12 months, means I don't get stuck with long term tenants.
I also place the deposits into a trust fund which is earning interest for the tenant for the duration of their let.

Claw Hammer

Deagol wrote: »

I
And think of it another way - what is more secure? HAP or employment? I've never heard of anyone getting laid off the HAP....

I have often heard of HAP being withdrawn because the tenant has't made
the contribution. The council only offer 1 months rent if the place is damaged no matter how badly. By definition the teant has no resources to compensate. Many a landlord has been stuck for thousands in damage as well as having to upgrade to current regulations at enormous cost.
HAP is a disaster.

Enter name here

Mr.S wrote: »

Makes sense, but how do you as the landlord run a credit check on an private individual as you aren’t providing any credit?

The same way a RE or letting agent can also avail to running a check it's just they choose not to. LL are providing use of a financial asset and by that definition credit checks are allowed.

antoinolachtnai

There is a lot of mad stuff on this thread.

I would not advise choosing your tenants from these documents and checks. You need to understand your tenants’ stories. And make sure they firstly made sense and secondly check out.

I had a guy come looking to rent a property. He and his partner had good public service jobs in well known institutions and he was well dressed. No doubt he had the paperwork too. He would have been a handy enough tenant, and there weren’t that many applicants at the time at the price point, but his ‘story’ of who he was and why he wanted this particular property didn’t make sense to me and the fancy Italian suit didn’t fit with the job he had either. So I passed.

Anyway, two years later I read a very similar story, except it is a report on a fraud prosecution brought by the Department of Social Protection. This clown Had a similar job and partner and had two PPS numbers and was topping up his salary with an unemployment claim.

Checked out the name from my old pile of emails and sure enough it was the same guy. A big mess was avoided because I (a) Took the time to get to know the prospective tenant, (b) wasn’t greedy and (c) thought about what I was doing.

Unless you are at the high end or in student housing I would be really careful about seeking big deposits. It could deter decent tenants on the one hand, and could be a bone of contention later if there is trouble.

Renting (in both sides) is ultimately a very human business when done well. It’s about knowing who you are dealing with and meeting them where they are to meet your business objective.

The technique of getting the prospective tenant to request their own ICB report? Nice idea, but illegal.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2018/act/7/section/4/enacted/en/html#sec4

Enter name here

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

There is a lot of mad stuff on this thread.

I would not advise choosing your tenants from these documents and checks. You need to understand your tenants’ stories. And make sure they firstly made sense and secondly check out.

I had a guy come looking to rent a property. He and his partner had good public service jobs in well known institutions and he was well dressed. No doubt he had the paperwork too. He would have been a handy enough tenant, and there weren’t that many applicants at the time at the price point, but his ‘story’ of who he was and why he wanted this particular property didn’t make sense to me and the fancy Italian suit didn’t fit with the job he had either. So I passed.

Anyway, two years later I read a very similar story, except it is a report on a fraud prosecution brought by the Department of Social Protection. This clown Had a similar job and partner and had two PPS numbers and was topping up his salary with an unemployment claim.

Checked out the name from my old pile of emails and sure enough it was the same guy. A big mess was avoided because I (a) Took the time to get to know the prospective tenant, (b) wasn’t greedy and (c) thought about what I was doing.

Unless you are at the high end or in student housing I would be really careful about seeking big deposits. It could deter decent tenants on the one hand, and could be a bone of contention later if there is trouble.

Renting (in both sides) is ultimately a very human business when done well. It’s about knowing who you are dealing with and meeting them where they are to meet your business objective.

The technique of getting the prospective tenant to request their own ICB report? Nice idea, but illegal.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2018/act/7/section/4/enacted/en/html#sec4

Nothing iilegal about, they are under no obligation to supply it. Also nothing illegal in a RE, letting agent or company requesting a cc on a prospective tenant (with their consent). Just as I am under no obligation to rent one of my properties to them.

NuMarvel

Enter name here wrote: »

Nothing iilegal about, they are under no obligation to supply it. Also nothing illegal in a RE, letting agent or company requesting a cc on a prospective tenant (with their consent). Just as I am under no obligation to rent one of my properties to them.

I'd be wary of thinking that the lack of an obligation to provide a credit report means you're operating inside the law. A credit report has a lot of personal information in it, so it's up to you to make sure you have a justifiable reason for seeing everything that appears in it. For example, the report includes every time a financial institution has checked your credit report. I can't think of a valid reason that a LL or agent would need to know that.

And the fact that the tenant has given you a copy of their report doesn't necessarily mean you have met the consent principle. The DPC guidance that Gjp650 linked to a few days ago explains the pit falls, especially in the current market.

Also, as far as I know agents or LLs can't run a credit check of their own volition, even with consent. They definitely can't access the Central Credit Register, and the ICB only provides information to their members. As you can see there are no agents or landlords in that listing.

What agency do you get credit information from?

NuMarvel

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The technique of getting the prospective tenant to request their own ICB report? Nice idea, but illegal.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2018/act/7/section/4/enacted/en/html#sec4

I don't think that section applies in this case. It's related to employment or contractor situations.

Even if it was applicable to wider services like renting, it's saying the person in receipt of the services can't insist on a data protection request. In this case, the LL is the provider of a service, not the recipient of one.

OttoPilot

Surely a pay slip is sufficient instead of a work reference. I provided one when applying for an apartment not too long ago and they wouldn't consider my application without the reference, so I pulled out. I'm not bothering my employer for that.

JustAThought

OttoPilot wrote: »

Surely a pay slip is sufficient instead of a work reference. I provided one when applying for an apartment not too long ago and they wouldn't consider my application without the reference, so I pulled out. I'm not bothering my employer for that.

you can have done one months contract/work -this dosn’t show you have a permanent job or a regular income spread over the period of the intended lease -it also dosn’t give any idea of length of contract.

Passport is a legal document and should show real name and nationality -this gives an indication of who the person is and whether they may have rights to live snd work in the country.The name and face in it should also match the drivers license and bank details.

OttoPilot

JustAThought wrote: »

you can have done one months contract/work -this dosn’t show you have a permanent job or a regular income spread over the period of the intended lease -it also dosn’t give any idea of length of contract.

Passport is a legal document and should show real name and nationality -this gives an indication of who the person is and whether they may have rights to live snd work in the country.The name and face in it should also match the drivers license and bank details.

I got a reference for a loan from my employer years ago and it didnt specify I was permanent, nor did it give any details of my salary. It just said "Employed by xyz. Has worked here since 2016". A pay slip would show how much of your pay was basic and OT or bonus no?

Gjp650

Enter name here wrote: »

Yes luxury apartments, and I cross check ICB report with the credit check I run. By asking them to supply a copy means they approving my request for a credit check.
Additionally most of my lets are to professionals relocating to Ireland and I provide fully furnished apartments while they seek more permanent accommodation. Most of my lets 3 to 12 months, means I don't get stuck with long term tenants.
I also place the deposits into a trust fund which is earning interest for the tenant for the duration of their let.

how do you manage to get short term lets? Is that allowed now?
do you not need a valid reason for someone to leave an apartment now as opposed to giving a time frame of say 12 months?

Claw Hammer

Gjp650 wrote: »

how do you manage to get short term lets? Is that allowed now?
do you not need a valid reason for someone to leave an apartment now as opposed to giving a time frame of say 12 months?

Short lets are allowed if it is not for a holiday. After 6 months the tenant gets part 4 no matter what the lease says.

Enter name here

Gjp650 wrote: »

how do you manage to get short term lets? Is that allowed now?
do you not need a valid reason for someone to leave an apartment now as opposed to giving a time frame of say 12 months?

Service apartments are still ok atm. Although Dublin council is trying it's best to shut it down.

dennyk

Gjp650 wrote: »

how do you manage to get short term lets? Is that allowed now?
do you not need a valid reason for someone to leave an apartment now as opposed to giving a time frame of say 12 months?

Short term lets are those which are 14 days or less, regardless of what the purpose of the let is. For those you need planning permission if in an RPZ, unless the property is your primary residence and you're only letting the whole thing out on a short term basis for a total of 90 days a year or less.

Any lets over 14 days would likely be considered a tenancy rather than a short-term let (unless they meet the very narrow criteria to be considered a license agreement rather than a tenancy) and so would be allowed (but would have to follow the RTA). After six months, the tenant would receive Part 4 rights.

If a property is a serviced apartment and has planning permission allowing short-term lets, it would be legal for them to let it out for less than 14 days even in an RPZ. It's also possible that such an arrangement would still be considered a license agreement rather than a tenancy due to the nature of the property and the service provided, even if it lasts for months.

Also, as far as ending leases, even if it is a tenancy, most serviced luxury apartment tenants are professional workers on temporary assignment who just need a place to stay for the duration, so they'll likely be leaving when their work assignment is complete, and as their employer is generally footing the bill there's much less risk of the tenant stopping the rent and/or overholding.

Gjp650

dennyk wrote: »

Short term lets are those which are 14 days or less, regardless of what the purpose of the let is. For those you need planning permission if in an RPZ, unless the property is your primary residence and you're only letting the whole thing out on a short term basis for a total of 90 days a year or less.

Any lets over 14 days would likely be considered a tenancy rather than a short-term let (unless they meet the very narrow criteria to be considered a license agreement rather than a tenancy) and so would be allowed (but would have to follow the RTA). After six months, the tenant would receive Part 4 rights.

If a property is a serviced apartment and has planning permission allowing short-term lets, it would be legal for them to let it out for less than 14 days even in an RPZ. It's also possible that such an arrangement would still be considered a license agreement rather than a tenancy due to the nature of the property and the service provided, even if it lasts for months.

Also, as far as ending leases, even if it is a tenancy, most serviced luxury apartment tenants are professional workers on temporary assignment who just need a place to stay for the duration, so they'll likely be leaving when their work assignment is complete, and as their employer is generally footing the bill there's much less risk of the tenant stopping the rent and/or overholding.

when drafting a lease then, can you do for a period of 1 year then or do you just leave dates open ended?

KilOit

Banks look for every form and information under the sun when lending but god forbid a landlord look for similar information when letting their own property.

Bank has huge funding to offset non payers on mortgage but landlord could be in financial ruin from a tenant not paying.

Not even a landlord or rent a place but the whole situation of landlords stuck with non paying tenants for months while they have to go down the legal route of hiring solicitors to fund that gravy train that is our legal system

whole thing really boils my piss

dennyk

Gjp650 wrote: »

when drafting a lease then, can you do for a period of 1 year then or do you just leave dates open ended?

You can create a fixed term lease for any term you'd like, but regardless of whether they're under a fixed term lease or not, tenants acquire security of tenure under Part 4 of the Residential Tenancies Act after six months of tenancy, so if the lease term is longer than six months, you can't just kick the tenant out because their lease term is up; they could only be given notice for one of the allowable reasons under Part 4.