Ivermectin Question

Earnshaw

Would anyone have an idea how long it takes these wormers like ivermectin to pass through the gut of cattle?

Don't want to have cows in a field excreting stuff which leads to soil degradation, so would be happier to put them in a sacrificial field until the wormer has passed through.

amacca

Earnshaw wrote: »

Would anyone have an idea how long it takes these wormers like ivermectin to pass through the gut of cattle?

Don't want to have cows in a field excreting stuff which leads to soil degradation, so would be happier to put them in a sacrificial field until the wormer has passed through.

Have to say I wasn't aware that it led to soil degradation if it passes through animal

Whats the interval you worm them at...presumably the stuff is in the system for that amount of time, then you would have to worm them again so they would be in that sacrificial paddock for a long time....


What kind of soil degradation....

Earnshaw

amacca wrote: »

Have to say I wasn't aware that it led to soil degradation if it passes through animal

Whats the interval you worm them at...presumably the stuff is in the system for that amount of time, then you would have to worm them again so they would be in that sacrificial paddock for a long time....


What kind of soil degradation....

Well it kills worms so when they **** it out it will also be affecting worm life in the soil.

Only worm them once for fluke & worms.

endainoz

Earnshaw wrote: »

Well it kills worms so when they **** it out it will also be affecting worm life in the soil.

Only worm them once for fluke & worms.

It will kill the good bacteria in the soil, it's more of an issue however if they were dosed while housed with bedding and the dung is used for gardening after dosing. Good helpful insects and worms won't go near the soil and growing in it is a lot more difficult.

If you'd like to try something different, you could try a 25 day grazing rotation if you have enough paddocks to do so, then you won't have to worm anything. (Assuming there's nothing coughing.) Dung samples can be a great help to see if it's working. Your sacrificial paddock idea might work but the animals can't be in there too long as they will inevitably pick up the worms again.

amacca

endainoz wrote: »

It will kill the good bacteria in the soil, it's more of an issue however if they were dosed while housed with bedding and the dung is used for gardening after dosing. Good helpful insects and worms won't go near the soil and growing in it is a lot more difficult.

If you'd like to try something different, you could try a 25 day grazing rotation if you have enough paddocks to do so, then you won't have to worm anything. (Assuming there's nothing coughing.) Dung samples can be a great help to see if it's working. Your sacrificial paddock idea might work but the animals can't be in there too long as they will inevitably pick up the worms again.

Interesting, whats the thinking behind the 25 days, I leave paddocks ungrazed here about an average of 21 days......is the 25 days so the larvae or young worn or whatever will have crawled to the top of the grass and died by the time the animals get back to graze or its leafy enough that they dont have to graze it to the butt and wont pick it up?

patsy_mccabe

I remember seeing Dung Beetles on the ground when I was younger. Long time since I've seen any. I always suspected it was down to Ivermectin use.

amacca

endainoz wrote: »

Iit's more of an issue however if they were dosed while housed with bedding and the dung is used for gardening after dosing. Good helpful insects and worms won't go near the soil and growing in it is a lot more difficult.

.

Sorry for all the questions...I sometimes leave a bit of ding from a bedded shed to rot down over the winter for planting veg in during spring......I generally dont dose the animals at housing if they dont have cough etc...(maybe a bit of pour on for lice etc and sometimes they dont need that)

They might have got a dose or a por on 6-8 weeks maybe a lot more before housing......would I be right in assuming that dung should be fine for use in a graden? (as long as I let it rot down properly etc.......peas/onions etc have been fine to date but Im only at it a year or two....dont want to put in the effort only to get a poor crop

patsy_mccabe

Here ya go;

https://www.teagasc.ie/environment/biodiversity--countryside/research/completed-projects/dung-decomposition/

endainoz

amacca wrote: »

Interesting, whats the thinking behind the 25 days, I leave paddocks ungrazed here about an average of 21 days......is the 25 days so the larvae or young worn or whatever will have crawled to the top of the grass and died by the time the animals get back to graze or its leafy enough that they dont have to graze it to the butt and wont pick it up?

Essentially yeah that's the theory that the larvae have died off by 25 days or so. If your already at a 21 day interval it should be easy enough to add a few more days to it. At 21 days they would be mostly gone too so I'd wager you don't have a huge worm problem as it is? But as I said earlier, dung samples from younger stock ccan be a great help to see how you are progressing with it.

amacca

endainoz wrote: »

Essentially yeah that's the theory that the larvae have died off by 25 days or so. If your already at a 21 day interval it should be easy enough to add a few more days to it. At 21 days they would be mostly gone too so I'd wager you don't have a huge worm problem as it is? But as I said earlier, dung samples from younger stock ccan be a great help to see how you are progressing with it.

I dont dose nearly as often as I hear some people have too...I hear the odd cough mind and I had one year recently it was chronic...I put it down to more stock than that farm could take really...a few paddocks got grazed to the butt.....Ive actually noticed more of an issue with calf pneumonia in some young calves in fairly fresh reseeds ...I put it down to the fact they are nearly monoculture so they are not getting a variety of grasses/plants they would in old pasture + the weather was ideal for the parasites, damp/moist warm continuously....

So if I had four paddocks in an area 8.5 days or thereabouts would give a 25day rest period per paddock ...ill give it a try anyway.

Earnshaw

endainoz wrote: »

It will kill the good bacteria in the soil, it's more of an issue however if they were dosed while housed with bedding and the dung is used for gardening after dosing. Good helpful insects and worms won't go near the soil and growing in it is a lot more difficult.

If you'd like to try something different, you could try a 25 day grazing rotation if you have enough paddocks to do so, then you won't have to worm anything. (Assuming there's nothing coughing.) Dung samples can be a great help to see if it's working. Your sacrificial paddock idea might work but the animals can't be in there too long as they will inevitably pick up the worms again.

Ya have been doing something like this (30 days) but still think they need a wormer as calves as some of them are a bit coughy.

If the dung is bad for gardening soil won't it be equally bad for the soil in a paddock which has ivermectin contaminated faeces.

893bet

If I recall when they are dosed you should put them back on the paddock they came from for a day or two.

The dose won’t kill all worms. Some will be resistant. By delaying the move to new pasture it allows treated calves to become lightly re-infected with susceptible worms which will dilute the numbers of surviving resistant worms.

https://beefandlamb.ahdb.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/BRP-Controlling-worms-and-liver-fluke-in-cattle-180116.pdf

amacca

893bet wrote: »

If I recall when they are dosed you should put them back on the paddock they came from for a day or two.

The dose won’t kill all worms. Some will be resistant. By delaying the move to new pasture it allows treated calves to become lightly re-infected with susceptible worms which will dilute the numbers of surviving resistant worms.

https://beefandlamb.ahdb.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/BRP-Controlling-worms-and-liver-fluke-in-cattle-180116.pdf

You learn something new everyday... thats mostly what I had been at.....but not due to any forethought or intelligence on my part:D

Earnshaw

893bet wrote: »

By delaying the move to new pasture it allows treated calves to become lightly re-infected

Why does keeping them put allow this?

893bet

Earnshaw wrote: »

Why does keeping them put allow this?

They pick is back up from the old pasture.

If you move them straight to a new pasture all they will be dropping there is the resistant worms which will increase the percentage of resistant worms in the new pasture.

Now I only half know what I am on about and the how and why of it but to reduce resistance overall I understand advice is to leave them in the paddock they came from for a day or two after dosing.

Someone else may be better able to explain.

893bet

https://youtu.be/LLbFUD4dxxw

This video helps explain.

richie123

Earnshaw wrote: »

Would anyone have an idea how long it takes these wormers like ivermectin to pass through the gut of cattle?

Don't want to have cows in a field excreting stuff which leads to soil degradation, so would be happier to put them in a sacrificial field until the wormer has passed through.

Has anyone any studies done on this to show it's harmful to soil? personally I think not.

Water John

I thought, delayed movement after dosing was so as not to dump the worm dose on fresh field.
Also the older oral dose more cripples the lung larvae as opposed to pour ons which kills them.

endainoz

richie123 wrote: »

Has anyone any studies done on this to show it's harmful to soil? personally I think not.

A quick Google search will show plenty of articles. Mostly affects dung beetles, but more studies show cattle are getting immunity to it because of overuse. A well managed paddock system will eliminate the need to even use it, so why bother?

Water John

Dosing in future will be only on symptoms or dung sampling.
Had one lot of weanlings bought last Autumn. Had seen them on their farm before they went to the mart, where I bought them. The mart stress triggered a major burden of stomach worms. Had to dose and took two weeks to clean up.

There is in fact a natural cheap remedy, diatomaceous earth, for liver fluke but there is no money for pharma in that.

richie123

endainoz wrote: »

A quick Google search will show plenty of articles. Mostly affects dung beetles, but more studies show cattle are getting immunity to it because of overuse. A well managed paddock system will eliminate the need to even use it, so why bother?

We spent 100s of years trying to come up with a good effective way of eliminating worms in cattle now we're trying to stop it.i find it odd this whole organic agenda.its not too long ago people in developed nation's died as a result of starvation...there's no ideal options in this world...other than dung beetles anything else anything solid to back the ops original agrument ?

Earnshaw

endainoz wrote: »

A quick Google search will show plenty of articles. Mostly affects dung beetles, but more studies show cattle are getting immunity to it because of overuse. A well managed paddock system will eliminate the need to even use it, so why bother?

So the basic concept of this is that because the worms live just above soil surface, the paddock gets a minimum of 25 days rest, and the cows rotationally graze down 50% before being moved on to the next paddock they avoid ingesting the worms?

endainoz

Earnshaw wrote: »

So the basic concept of this is that because the worms live just above soil surface, the paddock gets a minimum of 25 days rest, and the cows rotationally graze down 50% before being moved on to the next paddock they avoid ingesting the worms?

Yeah that's pretty much it, dung samples are important just to see if your on the right track. I've had this system for three grazing seasons and it's worked fine.

endainoz

richie123 wrote: »

We spent 100s of years trying to come up with a good effective way of eliminating worms in cattle now we're trying to stop it.i find it odd this whole organic agenda.its not too long ago people in developed nation's died as a result of starvation...there's no ideal options in this world...other than dung beetles anything else anything solid to back the ops original agrument ?

You said there were no studies on it and I told there were plenty, if you decide not to believe any of them that's your business. There has been methods of worm control for 1000s of years before ivermectin so I don't know where your going with that. It's just easy to use it for some people. I think you'll find starvation still exists, don't think ivermectin will change that?

There's no "agenda" here as you put it. There's an easy way to avoid using it, there are some farmers that dose for it every few weeks because of routine. That's clearly overuse and it will dilute the effectiveness.

Rotational grazing is an extremely simple method, it saves on money to buy the dose, saves on the time to bring them into a yard, less stress to the animal and most importantly the animal can build up natural immunity over time without relying on a dose.

Earnshaw

richie123 wrote: »

We spent 100s of years trying to come up with a good effective way of eliminating worms in cattle now we're trying to stop it.i find it odd this whole organic agenda.its not too long ago people in developed nation's died as a result of starvation...there's no ideal options in this world...other than dung beetles anything else anything solid to back the ops original agrument ?

Doesn't organic significantly mitigate the risk of starvation though?

As farming with fertilizers/sprays/frequent-dosing will mean the land will be more unusable for the next generation?

Sir Guy who smiles

endainoz wrote: »

A quick Google search will show plenty of articles. Mostly affects dung beetles, but more studies show cattle are getting immunity to it because of overuse. A well managed paddock system will eliminate the need to even use it, so why bother?

Cattle do not get immune to it, worms do.
A lot of pasture management systems have been developed to reduce or eliminate anthelmintic use. The rock they often perish on is lung worms, which can become a problem unexpectedly after a few years of successful stomach worm control.

The key is to use as little as possible so wormers work when you need them. As far as I know levamisole is still the best worker for hoose, it should be kept for that and nothing else.