How much is enough?

LegacyUser

Hello all.

I'm a registered user but am going anon for this because other posts I have made might identify me.

Has/is anybody here been in, or is in a relationship that they would like to get out of, but they don't for children's sake, or that they have made a significant financial input to the family home, or simply because they can't afford to? How much would they tolerate before they would move on? Can a relationship survive in circumstances like this?

This doesn't include violence. If a hand is raised in anger against an adult or child, get out asap, regardless of finances or anything else.

Meeoow

If you have to ask how much is enough, then I think that you are already at the end of the relationship. In my experience, you are already miserable and unhappy if you have to ask that question.

KiKi III

My Mam stayed with my Dad “for the kids”. We are now all 30+ and they’re still together.

I believe it was a catastrophic mistake on her part to stay. She wasn’t financially dependent on him, she didn’t have to stay.

I think she would have had a happier life if she had summoned the courage to leave.

qwerty13

I’m a victim of parents ‘staying together for the kids’. And I don’t use the word victim easily.

I genuinely think they thought they were doing their best. However, it has completely F’d up my view of relationships. I ballsed up a relationship due to bad communication. Or no communication really. I didn’t trust. And I was very critical.

Of course I have to take responsibility for my own behaviour. But growing up in an environment like that, well I didn’t even know how messed up I was, not for years. Please don’t do that to your kids.

KiKi III

qwerty13 wrote: »

I’m a victim of parents ‘staying together for the kids’. And I don’t use the word victim easily.

I genuinely think they thought they were doing their best. However, it has completely F’d up my view of relationships. I ballsed up a relationship due to bad communication. Or no communication really. I didn’t trust. And I was very critical.

Of course I have to take responsibility for my own behaviour. But growing up in an environment like that, well I didn’t even know how messed up I was, not for years. Please don’t do that to your kids.

I totally relate to this experience. It does the kids no favours.

qwerty13

Been there, had the therapy Kiki. It really messes with you view of relationships in my opinion. I think ‘staying for the sake of the kids’ really does more harm than good. But I do have a biased view.

Make It Real

I think a lot more couples stay together for some of the reasons OP mentions than we might think. We really know very little of what happens behind the closed doors of a house.

There are many ways of arranging things - or not - as there are couples. Some work very well, some are disasters, impacting parents, kids, everyone.

I also think as kids we are less aware of the some of the subtleties of adult relationships. If things aren't very 'in your face' you might not notice them or not read too much into them if you do. You tend to live in the moment more when you're a kid and are more likely just to accept things as they are. Also, you adapt and get conditioned to your situation more quickly than adults.

I think knowing that a relationship is over is probably "gut", whereas deciding to split up is a more complex "head" decision.

statto25

qwerty13 wrote: »

Been there, had the therapy Kiki. It really messes with you view of relationships in my opinion. I think ‘staying for the sake of the kids’ really does more harm than good. But I do have a biased view.

My mother kept us with an abusive father for far too long. Myself and my siblings are all suffering mentally and both my parents have never faced up to the facts of what took place. Like the poster above my perspective on relationships was shocking and based on what I saw in the past. One thing I've learned is that this is a chain reaction through generations. I made the decision to stop that chain reaction in the hope my child grows up healthy and mentally well rounded.

bitofabind

qwerty13 wrote: »

I genuinely think they thought they were doing their best. However, it has completely F’d up my view of relationships. I ballsed up a relationship due to bad communication. Or no communication really. I didn’t trust. And I was very critical.

Of course I have to take responsibility for my own behaviour. But growing up in an environment like that, well I didn’t even know how messed up I was, not for years. Please don’t do that to your kids.

Ouch. That struck a chord. My parents are wonderful but very different and definitely “stayed for the kids” at many points. Hearing “I love you” or seeing any affection and at certain points seeing a basic level of communication at home was completely lacking, all things I’ve struggled with up to the present day in my own relationships. I’m mid 30s and only untangling this stuff now after a lot of therapy, reading and self-care.

OP please don’t the mistake of thinking a lack of physical or verbal abuse is a reason to stay, or that “kids are resilient” or any of that. A lack of a healthy relationship model in those early years has caused me lifelong struggle and pain. As kids we see, we absorb and we imitate. Finances work themselves out. The emotional stuff is a lot harder to fix.

JustAThought

Things have changed financially hugely since
our eutopian view of the 1980’s or even 1990’s where it was financially possible to have two households and mortgages or
to run a second home and family and have some quality of life for yourself and have a chance to move on.

The reality for many who feel trapped in a loveless relationship is the likliehood of living in poverty or worse in a bedsit or homeshare, or moving back in with ageimg parents who simply may not want their adult child living with them forever.

It also means trying to manage childcare or childsitting arrangements or activities and their associated costs as well as an additional thousand or more to be found monthly for basic lodgings and bills ( Lx/gas/tv/wifi/food) . For many it is an utterly impoverishing experience where quality of life for the man takes a nosedive from which it rarely recovers.

I have seen both sides of the coin - miserable bitter couples tied together by a mortgage neither can afford to take over, and loveless couples sharing a house and neither able to bring their new partners home or share the common spaces in peace. I have also seen men living on friends spare rooms and kitting out their van to kip in to leave their house & provide for their families and feckless wives whose spending never seems to decline on the grounds that she is entitled - hair/retail therapy/ nights out/holidays - it beggars belief.

OP you are entitled to a life of live and happiness and new relationship & love but is that on the cards - I mean are you in love with someone else or ‘just’ sick of your current loveless situation? Is there a way it could be fixed or rekindled or are you both just tired and bored with each other? In the small hours between when you get home from work and commute and spend time with your kids is it so impossible to be with your partner or not come to some kind of arrangement that can give you both space ?

I know two family that put a (virtual) berlin wall down the middle of the house for the adults - and later extended for a second kitchen & divided the family home into 2 living spaces where the kids could roam but the parents knew to differentiate - they were officially divorcing at least so the kids were clear and knew. It wasn’t perfect but it beat the excrutiating impoverishment of the father and enabled childrearing and childminding.

I lnow of another couple who have 2 houses relatively close and share the kids equally - but the ex lets themself in and postures around and has temper tantrums in front of the new partner - even though he had abandoned his wife and young family and it had been ‘over’ 10 years - she lives on in poverty and an edge ‘for the kids sake’.

Is there a way you can both get professional help to talk through the issues and see if there is a way to fix or repair or mediate the issues so there could be a pathway for the future that dosn’t emotionally damage the children or leave you impoverished?

I know emotional is important but money is a huge source of anger and bitterness and mental stress as well as practical stress - this can rub off on the children as much as can the interactions between parents who can no longer deliver the goods and life children expect nor a basic standard from which a parent can relax and enjoy their existance.

iuil1999

Hi OP.

I split up with my long term partner because we were no longer in love. We had both grew into different people and had different goals and values. We could have stayed together for the kids, the mortgage, the dogs but at the end of the day we'd have been miserable and would have probably ended up hating each other. Children can sense tension so it's best not stay together for them. They are very resilient and bounce back. The money side will sort itself out too.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

harr

I know elderly couples who kept up the pretence of a happy marriage for years because of children and most commonly finances , I know ladies who never worked or had own money to leave the family home and they lived and some still are living miserable lives.
If you feel now that you are not compatible I would highly suggest no matter the circumstances finding a way to spilt not all marriage break ups are a nightmare , try to stay on speaking terms and good dialogue to try work out the logistics of the separation.
My brother went through a trial separation with his wife and it turned out it wasn’t what he really wanted and they got counselling and are now happier than ever that was 10 years ago.

s1ippy

I know a couple in their seventies who are separated but live in the same house, happy out and have done since they separated three decades ago when their children all moved out. They were a great team. I think they're an inspiration, able to want to best for each other and stay friends and supporters even though they're out of love. They could afford separate houses but they're just comfortable the way they've always been.

iuil1999

s1ippy wrote: »

I know a couple in their seventies who are separated but live in the same house, happy out and have done since they separated three decades ago when their children all moved out. They were a great team. I think they're an inspiration, able to want to best for each other and stay friends and supporters even though they're out of love. They could afford separate houses but they're just comfortable the way they've always been.

That sounds great because there's nothing worse than arguing and aggro but neither of them moved on with their lives. They could have met someone else. Their arrangement would have hindered that.

cj maxx

qwerty13 wrote: »

I’m a victim of parents ‘staying together for the kids’. And I don’t use the word victim easily
However, it has completely F’d up my view of relationships.
_____
That's why I need to get out of my toxic situation.
When my 7 yo told me he knows I hate mummy ( which I do) that's heartbreaking tbh.
He shouldn't grow up learning thats what a relationship should be. I think that's how his mother learned it .she has cost me almost everything but seeing the conflict in his face when we're both here isn't fair. Thats a price too far so she has to go.
The fcucking psychopath

Bigdig69

Sometimes things do improve and get turñed around too. But only if there is willingness to make it work on both sides.

redfox123

cj maxx wrote: »

qwerty13 wrote: »

I’m a victim of parents ‘staying together for the kids’. And I don’t use the word victim easily
However, it has completely F’d up my view of relationships.
_____
That's why I need to get out of my toxic situation.
When my 7 yo told me he knows I hate mummy ( which I do) that's heartbreaking tbh.
He shouldn't grow up learning thats what a relationship should be. I think that's how his mother learned it .she has cost me almost everything but seeing the conflict in his face when we're both here isn't fair. Thats a price too far so she has to go.
The fcucking psychopath

‘The ****ing psychopath’??
As I child there would be nothing I hated more than seeing in front of my eyes hate between my parents. You both are his world, his foundation, the model of unconditional love and security he needs to grow and develop healthily.

The greatest gift a father can give his children is to love their mother.
If you can’t do this, and you’ve tried all calm honest blameless communication about the issues, then it’s best you leave. Never, ever blame. It is what it is.

The fact you used those words about his mother shows a lot of emotional immaturity and blaming on your part. Take responsibility for your life and happiness and your children’s. Stop hating and focusing your hate and energy onto their mother.
Even if it’s ‘all her fault’, that doesn’t achieve anything? You don’t ‘win’ by her accepting all blame. That won’t happen and it won’t make it better. Be above all that and be the best person you can for your children.

cj maxx

redfox123 wrote: »

cj maxx wrote: »

‘The ****ing psychopath’??
As I child there would be nothing I hated more than seeing in front of my eyes hate between my parents. You both are his world, his foundation, the model of unconditional love and security he needs to grow and develop healthily.

The greatest gift a father can give his children is to love their mother.
If you can’t do this, and you’ve tried all calm honest blameless communication about the issues, then it’s best you leave. Never, ever blame. It is what it is.

The fact you used those words about his mother shows a lot of emotional immaturity and blaming on your part. Take responsibility for your life and happiness and your children’s. Stop hating and focusing your hate and energy onto their mother.
Even if it’s ‘all her fault’, that doesn’t achieve anything? You don’t ‘win’ by her accepting all blame. That won’t happen and it won’t make it better. Be above all that and be the best person you can for your children.

I'm not a medical doctor so am not qualified to diagnose her as a pychopath.
However after years of witnessing how she plans and manipulates every occasion to hurt and bad mouth me even if it hurts our son while presenting herself as the perfect spouse and mother to the outside world, fcucking psychopath is ,in my mind,a fair assessment.
My son's statement didn't come from me . I'm a 24/7 dad/ cook/ cleaner etc and I don't engage in arguments with her in front of my son and I don't bad mouth her in front of him, quite the opposite in fact.
All this is coming from her and her sister when I'm not there.
Pre lockdown of course.
It's manipulation of the most nefarious kind in my mind .
Why should I leave?
Because I'm the man.?
Typical thinking that the child stays with the mother while the man who quit work to rear them leaves after rearing them for 7 years? The man who cared for them as babies got up at all hours to feed them ,who toilet trained them and does their homework with them? Her leaving would be fairer , yes?
And calling her a effing psychopath does not show emotional insecurity. A process of taking all the things I know of and coming to a rational conclusion. I had never even heard of gaslighting till I sat down and calmly wrote down all the things that have happened before I realized that was what was happening.
So to the OP, sometimes it's better for the children to just spilt and pick up the pieces if you cannot be amicable. Just make sure you and your kids have a place you can you can live thats what I wanted to say. Sorry for derailing your thread

LegacyUser

I'm pretty much doing this at present, staying together for sake of the kids. My wife is just very, very difficult to live with.

She's riddled with anxiety, indecisiveness, dramatic, close to narcissistic. Her idea of small talk is to ask 'Well, how's work?' and before I'm half way through a very basic response, she will interrupt with "Well, you won't believe what she said to me today" with her latest drama. She has no basic communication skills - she interrupts and talks over everyone, she shouts from upstairs or downstairs and expects all to arrive to attend to her needs.

She's a tease. She teases me, kids, pets, her family - and then gets all hurt and offended when anyone reacts to her teasing.

She's noisy. She hums incessantly, at just the level that no tune is perceptible, so it's just noise, which isn't great for someone already dealing with tinnitus. Sometimes I have to ask her to stop humming while sitting beside me, if it's not one of her shows on TV. She does dramatically noisy yawns and sighs, when things go quiet - some kind of plea for attention; "I'm over here, I'm over here". She bangs around the kitchen. I can't stay in the room if she is unloading the dishwasher. If I try to take over, I'll get the eyes up to heaven, at a minimum.

Sex is infrequent, but can be pretty intense when it does happen. She's had trouble reaching orgasm since starting anti-depressants, but I can usually get her over the line, once I can get her past her usual body image reservations.

She goes through fairly significant ups and downs. On Sunday last week, she went to bed sobbing because of my thoughtlessness in choosing not to watch another episode on Netflix at 10.45pm given that I was up for work at 7am Monday. On Monday, she was holding me and hugging me to tell me how important I am to her. But it's the same me both days - the real change is her mood.

She was let go from two jobs years ago because she couldn't get on with people, and stayed out of the job market for 10 years approx to mind kids, which worked for both of us. But it also built up this total expectation of control of every aspect of the house, and any suggestion that she should compromise for others is some kind of outrageous imposition. She calls herself a 'Monica', half joking half serious. When it comes to anything to do with house, cleaning, usage, she snaps like I'm her low paid staff to get whatever she wants done.

I've a decent income, but we've run up credit card debt of about €12k again, because she can't live on any kind of budget. She spends loads, she cooks loads, and then we pay again to throw out loads in the bins. Any suggestion of any kind of cut back or management is met with 'Oh you're so controlling' responses.

I feel like Marge Simpson listing Homer's faults when they went for counselling, beside the fishing lake. I've never written this down before, and it doesn't look good.

I put it to her some years back that either we split and go our own ways, and gave her some hints as to the dramatic changes this would mean in her lifestyle and spending, or we put up and shut up and make a go of it. It would have meant kids having to change schools. In fairness, she did prioritise the kids and we're getting through it now. I really don't want to split, as I guess I'd end up living in some grotty houseshare box room while she swans around the house with the kids, with me paying for just about everything.

There are days and nights when I'm counting down the weeks until the kids are through secondary school at least, so I can make other plans. There are good days, some fun and some laughs, but she can turn 360-degrees in a second to rip through me for some minor issue, which just hurts too much too often. I don't know if I love her or not. I'm fond of her, I don't want to see her hurt. But I'm really not sure if I like her.

I'm not sure what will happen once the kids get through school. I'm really not prepared to spend my remaining years having to deal with her dramas over the simplest of issues. I've no idea how she could manage to live on her own, as she hasn't a clue of the value of money beyond her next handbag purchase.

redfox123

Do you think you’re spending too much time together? I know things are difficult now with the restrictions but could you take turns to go out by yourselves and do things like visit a friend/family or go do some form of exercising? Running, walking, cycling.
All the things you list are of course annoying. But I know couples who are talking like this about their other halves after the last few months because of spending way too much time together and not having their own lives (of course because of lockdown).
I know with kids you can’t very well just swan off but I don’t get the impression they are very young?
I have a very young toddler and all my energy goes towards her, but when I’m spending too much time with my OH his little habits start to bug the crap out of me. Then I go do some my own hobbies I can do at home when he is watching our child or she is in bed, and my focus is shifted from projecting my frustrations/whatever is going on to something productive.

If you put more value in the time you do actually spend together, you may find the little things don’t bother you as much. Make it proper time where you do things for each other.

She sounds like she has some mental health issues, and you may need to just talk to her about why she gets very dramatic about things, and it is having an effect on how you feel. Usually when you suggest help or counseling to someone like this they will shoot you down.

There seems to be some awareness on her part that you are emotionally distancing from her, and her reaction is to be more controlling, more attention seeking, more insecure.

How easy is it to sit down and have a really good talk about your feelings together? Don’t point out her flaws and habits. If you were to sit down and really gently ask her how is she, what is going on, is there anything causing stress or struggles for her. And I think you know she will probably bring up you. But maybe just listen, don’t defend yourself.
Let her speak and really listen. Usually the answers to the way people are, are the hardest things to take in, because we want to be just accepted for our flaws/coldness/unintentional lack of empathy, concern etc, while we want to be free to call the other person out on all their flaws.

There has to be reasons you committed your life to this person. Were you in love with her? Did you live together before marriage? Has she changed completely? Is it the stress of kids and housework? You married her. Ask yourself how things have changed, how have you changed.

If you really really can’t sit down to communicate constructively, however hard this is for you and her, and marriage counselling isn’t an option (I’m not sure if you have tried this), then maybe a seperation is the route you will have to take.

Curry Addict

JustADad wrote: »

I'm pretty much doing this at present, staying together for sake of the kids. My wife is just very, very difficult to live with.

your wife shows classic symptoms of ADHD. Might be worth checking out.

statto25

Curry Addict wrote: »

your wife shows classic symptoms of ADHD. Might be worth checking out.

I'm not sure ADHD but she is surely going through some mental issues. Do you know where her anxities stem from? Has she seen a professional bar the doctor so some therapy? Some of the traits you mention sound like distraction techniques from the battles in her mind, the humming in particular. I sing the same song in my head to stop me thinking irrational thoughts.