Basic Skills and common sense

mirrorwall14

This could just be one of those "I've been teaching too long" threads or be specific to my school but I really feel that distance learning has exposed just how dependent students are on teachers for absolutely everything and how little many actually know about using technology in terms of the world of work as opposed to instant messaging. There is widespread agreement from teachers I know at Second level

I have found students completely fail to follow general instructions. They literally do not read to the end of the post, or read it and completely ignore the instructions. Then message privately asking things that are directly addressed in the original instructions.

Very few students structure an email or comment politely, they expect instant responses but never follow up if something gets missed and often don't reply to say if things were sorted or not. There seems to be a lot of common sense lacking. Uploading blurry images, sideways images etc (and not doing it deliberately-very good students with no awareness). Unable to insert an image into a document, failing to understand notifications and how to turn them on and off, unwilling/unable to follow a schedule and check they have work uploaded for each class, the list goes on.

Right down to parents asking we don't send private messages outside school time because it causes anxiety (google classroom doesn't let you schedule private comments in google classroom unfortunately), completely missing that we have to do this prep outside of school time, when really they should just put the device away and no one would then see the notifications until the morning.

I'm not blaming anyone, if anything its possibly our own fault for hand-holding too much but I'm at a loss of how to address it. Is it just me? Am I just getting old?

Treppen

Not their fault really. The interface for their regular apps is so minimal and streamlined there's little to learn.

There's a long list they need to learn, digital literacy short course could pick it up but sadly all the material is geared towards online safety.

Maybe we could come up with a list and just add to it as the thread moves on.

But totally agree on the hand holding. I gave a TY class a simple group project before with a list of detailed steps printed off. Divided into groups, Said nothing on purpose and handed them the sheets.

Most common question... What do we do after step one? :pac:

You can see this in the panic over "a lack of certainty" for Leaving Cert students. Sometimes you just need to sit tight and accept it's not as easy as swiping right.

In many ways I think it comes down to unstructured play. There was a brief window from 60s-80s when kids weren't 'sent down the mines' straight after primary school. Parents had a bit of financial freedom , enough for one parent to pay a mortgage/rent.
Hence kids could just get out for hours every day with friends and make their own entertainment.
Round about mid 80s things changed , more women taking up employment outside home (rightly so) + stranger danger.
Now everything is so structured, play is regulated, measured and has to have extrinsic value (music will make you good at maths, rugby will get you business connections, team sports help you with leadership etc). As soon as the kid leaves front door we need to know what's the plan.
Anyway, we've imposed so much structure there's never any impetus or time to engage with a problem.

amacca

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

This could just be one of those "I've been teaching too long" threads or be specific to my school but I really feel that distance learning has exposed just how dependent students are on teachers for absolutely everything and how little many actually know about using technology in terms of the world of work as opposed to instant messaging. There is widespread agreement from teachers I know at Second level

I have found students completely fail to follow general instructions. They literally do not read to the end of the post, or read it and completely ignore the instructions. Then message privately asking things that are directly addressed in the original instructions.

Very few students structure an email or comment politely, they expect instant responses but never follow up if something gets missed and often don't reply to say if things were sorted or not. There seems to be a lot of common sense lacking. Uploading blurry images, sideways images etc (and not doing it deliberately-very good students with no awareness). Unable to insert an image into a document, failing to understand notifications and how to turn them on and off, unwilling/unable to follow a schedule and check they have work uploaded for each class, the list goes on.

Right down to parents asking we don't send private messages outside school time because it causes anxiety (google classroom doesn't let you schedule private comments in google classroom unfortunately), completely missing that we have to do this prep outside of school time, when really they should just put the device away and no one would then see the notifications until the morning.

I'm not blaming anyone, if anything its possibly our own fault for hand-holding too much but I'm at a loss of how to address it. Is it just me? Am I just getting old?

No, I think you are correct tbh after witnessing the last couple of weeks of what OH is up to. I dont think its teachers fault for hand holding either......that unfortunately is the audience you are dealing with.

Digital Natives my ass when it comes to their computer skills.

The parents that are asking you dont send messages outside of school time really should know better too and have the basic level of cop on to set a time aside for dealing with schoolwork and have a switch off time rather than requesting things they could easily manage themselves like you say.

The basic common sense with regard to blurry images, reading instructions etc etc ...I suppose is to be expected somewhat with the younger kids although strangely enough it seems was the 1st yrs and the 6th yrs doing the best at the start so a lot of the problems Ive witnesssed here is down to students that can engage and are not taking full responsibility, not having a willingness to engage fully and making half efforts (but couldn't really be bothered) to keep parents/you off their back....which is to be expected I suppose, its just the numbers at it I found interesting........they repeatedly send in a blurry image or a sideways image and willfully ignore simple instructions because they dont give a fook and are simply ticking a box (wonder where they learned that)...they couldn't be bothered, its simply not a priority for them and they wont learn to take personal responsibility until they have to.......Id imagine most of them would be able to do it properly in a heartbeat if they were offered fifty euro on condition it was done correctly and sent in a readable format.......they wont learn to do these things until it will cost them the fifty euro when they dont do it properly and they dont connect what they are doing now to success or getting what they want later.....its amazing how effective they will be when they have to, when they are competing for a job etc etc......but they wont be while they are still wrapped up in cotton wool and insulated from any real consequences in secondary school.........thats just the way it is imo

All this stuff about the student taking responsibility for their own learning is only lip service, most of the new JCT bull**** will have the opposite effect..........what people taking responsibility for their own area looks like is having to clean up their own mess when they **** in the nest and suffer consequences of not making an effort and learning that they have to make the effort if they want to get something/somewhere because the other guy will..........its not constant molly coddling and hand wringing concern about some nebulous concept of "wellbeing" following hot on the heels of the previous linked craze of "mindfulness"......theres a whole industry out there pushing this vacuous nonsense and its a societal thing (which means you have to roll with it until the chickens come home to roost)

Basically we are postponing experiences like having to deal with real consequences until after secondary school....they will probably postpone them out of third level too .... In the past a majority reached semi adulthood (mentally at least) much earlier in life - you now see an increasing proportion of man and women children wandering round well into their thirties and the scary bit is they have kids of their own that they dont appear to be doing a great job of parenting......of course it doesnt help when you have to work two jobs just to pay a crippling mortgage on cramped semi d somewhere etc etc...there are a lot of contributing factors at play here and the only thing you can do is manage your own area, do your best but dont give too much to the point where its damaging to you, when an increasing proportion are selfish you have to learn to be a bit selfish yourself imo.

Treppen

I'm kind of changing my opinion on the late emails.

Our school are kind of strict about sending and receiving emails after work hours. This sends the message that we should log off after work or at least accept that there are people who can't turn off notifications and think they have to reply to messages as if it's like a telephone ringing.
It's a good thing imo and we've all adopted scheduled emails to teachers/ parents/students. You know yourself which teachers are ok with emails at any hour too.
It also stops the impulsive email sent to a parent who might appear a bit short with you about something. A few times I've asked other teachers about a snotty email I just received and find out there's other stuff going on and parents can be stressed about other things.
I'm always a bit iffy about communicating with students outside school hours too.

rainbowtrout

I totally agree mirrorwall and it has been going on for some time.

There's a whole myriad of reasons. I think lots of students come out of primary school with the basics in literacy and numeracy any more. That's not a dig at primary school teachers, but I think the primary school curriculum has been diluted down to fit in other subjects like science at the expense of the basics. When the students come in to secondary school, they've done all the basics and are bored with what is on offer. I often get - did that in fifth class - but they don't really have much scientific knowledge behind it.

There doesn't seem to be much focus on basic aspects of language like grammar, and sentence structure. I had this book in primary school

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Junior-English-Revised-Answers-RICHARDS/dp/0602205581/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=62125398887&dchild=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwh472BRAGEiwAvHVfGpTfbpgFl-Eg-dgqOXIDJRH_DhfWVGMXAamAUgwgJZmkx70mKWegcxoCbrcQAvD_BwE&hvadid=291277525343&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=1007895&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=2720302223294622456&hvtargid=kwd-296749494120&hydadcr=19569_1794259&keywords=junior+english+revised&qid=1589884704&sr=8-1


And while it might seem very dry now, it taught us how to structure sentences etc properly.

Also had this

https://www.amazon.co.uk/New-First-Aid-English/dp/0716940019/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=first+aid+in+english&qid=1589884820&sr=8-4


I think students would freak if this was put in front of them in a primary school now because everything has to be multicoloured and have bells and whistle everywhere. Everything has to be entertaining.


I was coordinating TY in my school last year and asked the TYs to write a letter of thanks to their work experience employer and gave them each an envelope and asked them to address it. The state of the envelopes - from addresses with no capital letters, to addresses all written as one line, I was shocked by the poor standard of literacy. You know, even from a common sense point of view as you say, they've all seen envelopes, they know names get capital letters, no cop on to write the name and address in the format they have seen so many times. I couldn't use most of the envelopes, they were a mess.

Their attention spans are incredibly poor and phones/internet have a lot to do with that. I too have experienced the multitude of questions on what they have to do for a task or project when it is written in black and white in front of them, but they just can't be bothered to read it.

They don't have technology skills, they can access TikTok, Instagram, Snapchat and whatever else they are into. Because there is no space in the timetable, they don't have timetabled computer classes to actually learn how to use Word or Excel properly. While they have access to more information than any other generation at any other time in history, their world view is very small because they are selective about what they look at. It's mainly social media. In the past there would have been one TV in the house, so they would have been exposed to the evening news, current events etc because that was what their parents watched. They can choose their own media now on their phones/tablets/laptops and limit their exposure.

There is very little value placed on rote learning. Now I'm not a fan of learning off Irish essays by heart or stuff like that, but knowing spellings or times tables, is useful. I would be a firm believer that if they have the foundations they can then focus on more complex concepts. But time and time again I see students reach for the calculator in fifth and sixth year to do basic multiplication, which means they have to slow down to do that step, before they can even consider the next step in the process. For anyone who does know that stuff, it's automatic and they can concentrate on the real problem. I don't see it as any different to a student learning their chords and scales on the piano so they can then work on a complex piece of sheet music.

I'd say anecdotally there are way more children allowed long periods of time on devices to spend their day on YouTube and other stuff. Some parents would argue that it's no worse than TV, but a device consumes all their attention, they need to hold it in their hand to watch the screen, they need to be up close to it to see what is on the screen. Kids can still sit on the floor and play with lego etc, while a TV is on, so perhaps it doesn't require as much undivided attention. If kids are at this craic from the age of 2, I don't think it bodes well for their concentration spans in the long term.

Incidentally we have a couple of families in the school where phones/TV/internet (depends from house to house) is banned in the house. In one family the kids can only watch TV at weekends, another they have no phones and only access to internet for one hour in the evening. Kids are hard working, have great social skills, and are focused.