Army Engineer Cadetship 2020

oratoro

Hi, I am looking for reliable information regarding the current competition posted by the IDF totled "Army Engineer Cadetship" from somebody who has completed this program or has good knowledge on it.

From my understanding the program is undertaken as follows:
15 Months Cadetship
24 Months MEng Military Engineering (Level 9)
12 Months Unit level experience
12 Months Overseas mission

This schedule brings the total timescale to 5 years and 3 months after which time you are entitled to leave the military without AWOL or a financial burden. If however you leave voluntarily during the program, you are required to refund the expenses incurred by the IDF.

Please consider my question under the assumption that the applicant is a graduate from a Bachlor of Science related degree from an Irish university.

I have four questions related to this program:

1. Admission
I have heard a lot of rumours and information regarding the high level of nepotism within the IDF. This issue would mean that being accepted into the army is far more competitive, and if the applicant does not have a "connection" in the IDF, they will be accepted only after the relatives/friends of existing members have filled the first places. Is this accurate? Are Cadetship places typically reserved for friends and family of active members of the army? Is nepotism regulated as well as it should be, given it is part of the public sector?

2. Isolation/Mental wellbeing
From my understanding, the cadetship is known to be boring, isolated, dreary and you are entitled to little time off. I am not talking about the people who are upset over their gucci shoes getting dirty but for the mental health of undertaking the cadetship. You are entitled to 34 annual leave days, but this is spread over a 7 day working week, which is very little in comparison to a regular 5 day week job with, say, 25 annual leave days. Apart from the mental welbeing, the lower ranking privates are known to form negative opinions of the cadets, as they might not enjoy being ordered by, sometimes people younger than them. Is it true that the cadetship can be quite isolated, and that sometime you might not be allowed choose you annual leave days?

3. Salary, expenses
For the first 15 month cadetship, you are paid on the cadet pay-scale. Which is split into 5 pay points. Point 1 is €19,255 and point 5 is €30,828. Why do these separate points exist? Would a cadet on the engineer program be able to earn a higher pay point? What dictates your pay point during your cadetship? Is the first 34,500 of your earnings tax-free as this is a public sector job? Then, as you begin your 24 month Military Engineering level 9 program your salary is increased to €49,304 (base, plus allowance) which follows an annual increase thereafter. Is the salary increased to this amount immediately after you complete your cadetship and progress to the MEng? Will the annual pay rise occur during your education or only once you graduate? It is well established that the IDF is known as the lowest paid public service job, but this payscale seems appropriate, am I missing something?

4. Future work/oppertunities
If the candidate was to remain in the army, is progression up the ranks further culled by nepotism or is there room for more senior positions based on your ability/performance? Are future overseas tours likely or competitive to get onto? If the candidte was to leave the army, is the MEng Military Engineering awarded by IT Carlow highly regarded? By the washington accords, would this entitle its recipent an engineering chatership by engineers ireland if the undergrad was not an engineering degree but a physics degree?

Please also advise me if I have given false information or inacurate information.

Thanks

Borderland

oratoro wrote: »

Hi, I am looking for reliable information regarding the current competition posted by the IDF totled "Army Engineer Cadetship" from somebody who has completed this program or has good knowledge on it.

From my understanding the program is undertaken as follows:
15 Months Cadetship
24 Months MEng Military Engineering (Level 9)
12 Months Unit level experience
12 Months Overseas mission

This schedule brings the total timescale to 5 years and 3 months after which time you are entitled to leave the military without AWOL or a financial burden. If however you leave voluntarily during the program, you are required to refund the expenses incurred by the IDF.

Please consider my question under the assumption that the applicant is a graduate from a Bachlor of Science related degree from an Irish university.

I have four questions related to this program:

1. Admission
I have heard a lot of rumours and information regarding the high level of nepotism within the IDF. This issue would mean that being accepted into the army is far more competitive, and if the applicant does not have a "connection" in the IDF, they will be accepted only after the relatives/friends of existing members have filled the first places. Is this accurate? Are Cadetship places typically reserved for friends and family of active members of the army? Is nepotism regulated as well as it should be, given it is part of the public sector?

2. Isolation/Mental wellbeing
From my understanding, the cadetship is known to be boring, isolated, dreary and you are entitled to little time off. I am not talking about the people who are upset over their gucci shoes getting dirty but for the mental health of undertaking the cadetship. You are entitled to 34 annual leave days, but this is spread over a 7 day working week, which is very little in comparison to a regular 5 day week job with, say, 25 annual leave days. Apart from the mental welbeing, the lower ranking privates are known to form negative opinions of the cadets, as they might not enjoy being ordered by, sometimes people younger than them. Is it true that the cadetship can be quite isolated, and that sometime you might not be allowed choose you annual leave days?

3. Salary, expenses
For the first 15 month cadetship, you are paid on the cadet pay-scale. Which is split into 5 pay points. Point 1 is €19,255 and point 5 is €30,828. Why do these separate points exist? Would a cadet on the engineer program be able to earn a higher pay point? What dictates your pay point during your cadetship? Is the first 34,500 of your earnings tax-free as this is a public sector job? Then, as you begin your 24 month Military Engineering level 9 program your salary is increased to €49,304 (base, plus allowance) which follows an annual increase thereafter. Is the salary increased to this amount immediately after you complete your cadetship and progress to the MEng? Will the annual pay rise occur during your education or only once you graduate? It is well established that the IDF is known as the lowest paid public service job, but this payscale seems appropriate, am I missing something?

4. Future work/oppertunities
If the candidate was to remain in the army, is progression up the ranks further culled by nepotism or is there room for more senior positions based on your ability/performance? Are future overseas tours likely or competitive to get onto? If the candidte was to leave the army, is the MEng Military Engineering awarded by IT Carlow highly regarded? By the washington accords, would this entitle its recipent an engineering chatership by engineers ireland if the undergrad was not an engineering degree but a physics degree?

Please also advise me if I have given false information or inacurate information.

Thanks

I think most of this is based on inaccurate assumptions but I will do my best to answer it as best I can.

1. I think irregardless of any nepotism, the cadetships in the Defence Forces are incredibly competitive. I think there is probably an element of nepotism, but I think it’s more to do with those candidates being better prepared for the interview process. I think the son/daughter of a high ranking officer would know exactly what to say to an interview panel and would understand the Defence Forces extremely well. I have a friend who is on an army engineer cadetship at the moment and he did not have friends in the job.

2. The cadetship is far from dreary, I’m not sure who told you that. It is probably the most difficult thing you will do in your life, but if you check any of the social media accounts the Defence Forces use you will see that the cadets do some very interesting (and cool) stuff on a weekly basis. It’s a full programme, and they have “down time” structured into the cadetship. You don’t have annual leave from your college course, but you might have 2 weeks “off” etc. The cadets aren’t ordering anyone around, and you’re not going to be ordering privates around in the short term. In your role
As an officer you’d be using the chain of command and giving taskings to your platoon Sgt or whoever.

3. The pay scale for a cadetship is just that, it’s effectively a stipend during your training. The pay scale corresponds to years served. I imagine there is a pay scale longer than 15 months incase you got injured or sick and that it took you longer to complete the cadetship. Everyone pays tax in Ireland, regardless of whether you are in the public service or not. Once you are commissioned, you go onto the Lieutenant pay scale which is available on military.ie. Following the completion of your Level 9, you would be eligible to be made an Army Engineer with the corresponding pay scale. The complaints about Defence Forces pay is usually concerned with the enlisted ranks.

4. I don’t have a background in engineering so I can’t help with this,

It wasn't me!

oratoro wrote: »

Hi, I am looking for reliable information regarding the current competition posted by the IDF totled "Army Engineer Cadetship" from somebody who has completed this program or has good knowledge on it.

From my understanding the program is undertaken as follows:
15 Months Cadetship
24 Months MEng Military Engineering (Level 9)
12 Months Unit level experience
12 Months Overseas mission

The cadetship is approximately 16 months (there is variability depending on the various events surrounding the commissioning time and the completion of the programme). Thereafter you will do an Engineer young officer's course of approximately 12-15 months, not 24. The vast majority of overseas deployments are for six months, not twelve, and you are overwhelmingly likely to be deployed on a typical six month deployment with troops as a young engineer officer. So your timeline is somewhat off. Unit experience is not just a precursor to overseas service, but the backbone of your working life. There's no set amount before you are eligible to travel.

This schedule brings the total timescale to 5 years and 3 months after which time you are entitled to leave the military without AWOL or a financial burden. If however you leave voluntarily during the program, you are required to refund the expenses incurred by the IDF.

If there's a specific undertaking in respect of the Engineer YO course, it's not detailed in the T&C for 2020. As an officer, you have no automatic undertaking and other than those specifically notified as being associated with further study, you can leave without financial penalty at any time before or after commissioning.

1. Admission
I have heard a lot of rumours and information regarding the high level of nepotism within the IDF. This issue would mean that being accepted into the army is far more competitive, and if the applicant does not have a "connection" in the IDF, they will be accepted only after the relatives/friends of existing members have filled the first places. Is this accurate? Are Cadetship places typically reserved for friends and family of active members of the army? Is nepotism regulated as well as it should be, given it is part of the public sector?

This is not accurate. It is a scored public competition. The children of high ranking officers have been known not to be awarded places where 18 year old leaving cert students were awarded them. If there's an impression that family of serving members are more likely to be awarded places, it's due to the fact that they are more likely to be familiar with the life, its requirements and the culture surrounding the DF by virtue of having lived with it.

2. Isolation/Mental wellbeing
From my understanding, the cadetship is known to be boring, isolated, dreary and you are entitled to little time off. I am not talking about the people who are upset over their gucci shoes getting dirty but for the mental health of undertaking the cadetship. You are entitled to 34 annual leave days, but this is spread over a 7 day working week, which is very little in comparison to a regular 5 day week job with, say, 25 annual leave days. Apart from the mental welbeing, the lower ranking privates are known to form negative opinions of the cadets, as they might not enjoy being ordered by, sometimes people younger than them. Is it true that the cadetship can be quite isolated, and that sometime you might not be allowed choose you annual leave days?

The cadetship is anything but boring. There are periods of drudgery, and you will be required to perform routine and mundane tasks, because this is your job as an officer. You will have no leave available to take at your discretion. Leave is built into the course itself and is not for the cadet to avail of at their own discretion. It's a live-in course. You will be confined to the military college for the duration of it bar such periods of leave as are awarded by the staff. These will largely be at weekends and you should be under no illusion that you are going to be able to take a day off here and there. Training is conducted on a seven day a week basis. As to the idea that junior ranks may not respect cadets, cadets will have little or no interaction with soldiers outside of their own instructing staff. Upon commissioning, you can expect appropriate deference to be paid to rank, but respect is earned and will depend on how an officer engages with their colleagues of all ranks.

3. Salary, expenses
For the first 15 month cadetship, you are paid on the cadet pay-scale. Which is split into 5 pay points. Point 1 is €19,255 and point 5 is €30,828. Why do these separate points exist? Would a cadet on the engineer program be able to earn a higher pay point? What dictates your pay point during your cadetship? Is the first 34,500 of your earnings tax-free as this is a public sector job? Then, as you begin your 24 month Military Engineering level 9 program your salary is increased to €49,304 (base, plus allowance) which follows an annual increase thereafter. Is the salary increased to this amount immediately after you complete your cadetship and progress to the MEng? Will the annual pay rise occur during your education or only once you graduate? It is well established that the IDF is known as the lowest paid public service job, but this payscale seems appropriate, am I missing something?

Pay points increase on an annual basis. The longer increments reflect the fact that Air Corps cadets, for example, train far longer than line or technical army officers. Engineer cadets do not receive additional pay and salary is not negotiated. The only dictating factor is how long you have been serving. The taxable figures are in line with all employment in Ireland and 34,500 is certainly not tax free, public or private sector. As an engineer officer, you will be entitled to rate 2 pay from when you begin service with the corps and increments are awarded annually. The YO course, while accredited, is conducted by the defence forces themselves rather than outside of it in an academic institute. This salary is indeed a good salary, but should absolutely not be considered representative of the wider defence forces. Look at the rate 1 pay for line officers, for example.

4. Future work/oppertunities
If the candidate was to remain in the army, is progression up the ranks further culled by nepotism or is there room for more senior positions based on your ability/performance? Are future overseas tours likely or competitive to get onto? If the candidte was to leave the army, is the MEng Military Engineering awarded by IT Carlow highly regarded? By the washington accords, would this entitle its recipent an engineering chatership by engineers ireland if the undergrad was not an engineering degree but a physics degree?

Career progression is linked to time served, particularly for rate 2 officers. Overseas service is linked to multiple factors but engineer officers will certainly have ample opportunity to travel. I can't speak to the value of the specific engineering qualification within engineering circles or what it might entitle someone to as I don't have an engineering background.