What if..

bear1

I watched Michael Collins yesterday and it got me thinking how different Ireland would have been if he wasn't killed?
Would we have still gone on a economic war path with the UK?
Would we have stayed neutral?
Would it have made an difference to the troubles?
Genuinely curious.

kenmm

What if you never watched Michael Collins yesterday and you didn't have these questions?

ILoveYourVibes

bear1 wrote: »

I watched Michael Collins yesterday and it got me thinking how different Ireland would have been if he wasn't killed?
Would we have still gone on a economic war path with the UK?
Would we have stayed neutral?
Would it have made an difference to the troubles?
Genuinely curious.

I think he would have taken us into ww2. I don't think it would have made a diff to the troubles. I still think we would have gone into an economic war path with the UK.

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I think he would have taken us into ww2. I don't think it would have made a diff to the troubles. I still think we would have gone into an economic war path with the UK.

Why do you think that?

EmmetSpiceland

Be nice think that the children of this country wouldn’t have been handed over to the church to be assaulted and sexually abused for decades on end.

SEPT 23 1989

He would have relished the chance to have a go at Hitler

Kylta

What if my ma had a bollox?
What if? Is people fantasizing about what if!
In reality we consign the past to the past, it can't be altered or change. So look forward to the future where What if, has unlimited possibilities.
Whoa.... my ma had a bollox, its me

ILoveYourVibes

Deleted User wrote: »

Why do you think that?

I could be wrong but the ports controlled by the UK ...the handing of them back was DEVS doing.

Anglo Irish Trade Agreement in 1938 stipulated it. I think the stipulation was Devs thinking. He was tsaoiseach at the time.

We couldn't have neutrality without them.

El_Duderino 09

I often think he might have died at the ideal time for his legacy. If he had gone on to be a leader in peacetime he might have been completely out of his depth and been the completely wrong man for the job. Rebellions need hatchet men and running a country needs statesmen (not sure what the gender neutral term is). Collins was excellent at running the flying columns and its fairly well acknowledged that he was sent to London to negotiate because he wasn't suited to the more nuanced side of government.

I've no idea what Collins would have been like. But the hatchet men rarely make the move to statesmen after a rebellion. When you consider the people who rese to power after rebellions, the record isn't great. I actually think Martin McGuinness was an example of someone who was able to become a proper politician after his time as a hatchetman.

KevRossi

Constitution would have been different. Church might have had a lot less influence on the country, I don't think Archbishop John McQuaid would have had such influence on the way the country was governed.

Possibly a different place for women from the beginning of the Free State, maybe they would have had more rights from the outset.

I think we would have had a bigger role in WW2, possibly entering it in 1942 after the US, or at least being involved from D-Day on.

The real question is how much influence would he have had on those who came after him? Which direction would they have led us?

Dr. Bre

What if God was one of us

KevRossi

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I often think he might have died at the ideal time for his legacy. If he had gone on to be a leader in peacetime he might have been completely out of his depth and been the completely wrong man for the job. Rebellions need hatchet men and running a country needs statesmen (not sure what the gender neutral term is). Collins was excellent at running the flying columns and its fairly well acknowledged that he was sent to London to negotiate because he wasn't suited to the more nuanced side of government.

I've no idea what Collins would have been like. But the hatchet men rarely make the move to statesmen after a rebellion. When you consider the people who rese to power after rebellions, the record isn't great. I actually think Martin McGuinness was an example of someone who was able to become a proper politician after his time as a hatchetman.

Very good points there.

We'll never know, I guess.

A Consonant Please Carol

The opening title is so vague. You hope it's going to be something decent/ entertaining but nay.

ILoveYourVibes

Dev was possibly the most intelligent leader this country ever had. And he had the advantage of being Irish so the british thought he wasn't smarter than them at first.

He was ultra conservative.

He had a more difficult and modest background than any Irish leader before or since and could have achieved nothing without an iron will.

Collins was yielding.

Ireland had an iron will leadership during its economic separation from the UK allowing us to get back control of the three ports etc.

I am not sure collins would have gotten us that same degree of separation. Im not sure he would have gotten us back the treaty ports.

Churchill is reported to have said he thought feeding the uk would be hard without these ports. But he said Michael Collins was open to the UK keeping control.

Dev insisted on them being in Irish control. But the Irish would use them to help the british.

Church on Tuesday

I don't think very much would have changed TBH. We certainly would not have entered WW2; that would be the last thing Collins would have wanted.

Some barbs between him and Churchill continuing aplomb.

An economic war almost certainly.

He would have been an elder statesman come the Troubles, no doubt he would be a voice calling for calm and practical thinking masking a certain disgust.

bear1

A Consonant Please Carol wrote: »

The opening title is so vague. You hope it's going to be something decent/ entertaining but nay.

And yet... Here you are, making sure it isn't.

bear1

kenmm wrote: »

What if you never watched Michael Collins yesterday and you didn't have these questions?

Then my day would be far less productive.
Jesus the thought of it

ILoveYourVibes

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

I don't think very much would have changed TBH. We certainly would not have entered WW2; that would be the last thing Collins would have wanted.

He wouldn't have had a choice if the uk retained control over the treaty ports and we were as less separated from the UK as his vision.

In fact the british wanted a stipulation that they could use them in times of war. Dev was against this.



Collins promised Lord Beatty and Churchill the use of the Treaty Ports in time of war.

We couldn't have maintained neutrality then.

And its unlikely the british would have agreed to another treaty or give them back after ww2 started.

bear1

Kylta wrote: »

What if my ma had a bollox?
What if? Is people fantasizing about what if!
In reality we consign the past to the past, it can't be altered or change. So look forward to the future where What if, has unlimited possibilities.
Whoa.... my ma had a bollox, its me

You sure must be entertaining at parties

Kylta

Dr. Bre wrote: »

What if God was one of us

We'd have him certified in an asylum or ridicule on TV.

Kylta

bear1 wrote: »

You sure must be entertaining at parties

Better to laugh than to cry... its actually what's wrong with people today they have lost the sense of humour.

ILoveYourVibes

Originally Posted by Dr. Bre View Post
What if God was one of us

God is all of us doing the right thing.

RobbingBandit

We definitely wouldn't have been neutral would have had more room to negotiate with Britain Church wouldn't have had the power it did during Devs time Collins probably would have led Irish troops into WWII operations.

I'd say Germany would have invaded or at least we'd have been bombed more too, US definitely would have seen Island of Ireland as a strategic base of operations we would have been totally Americanised from the 1950s onwards with a large US Army base at at least three areas in the country Cork Shannon and probably Knock can't see the science Division Dev started up happening here probably would have went to US or elsewhere, definitely a more military presence in the country though. Collins would have went the same way as Churchill after WWII voted out of office the political parties would have been totally different if Dev and his cronies were still about they'd be the opposition to Collins and would sweep the 1945 elections but with little or none of the influence of reality it would be about rebuilding things rather than isolation

Kylta

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

God is all of us doing the right thing.

If he answers your in trouble your hearing voices and most probably need to change your medication.
The person you should ask are you doing the right thing is yourself?

ILoveYourVibes

Kylta wrote: »

If he answers your in trouble your hearing voices and most probably need to change your medication.
The person you should ask are you doing the right thing is yourself?

He always answers.

He wouldn't be god if he didn't.

Kylta

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

He always answers.

He wouldn't be god if he didn't.

Did god ask for your bank card and pin number. If he did he's not god because he knows everthing. Unlike the main man I'm his devoted apostle please forward to me your pin number your bankcard,/credit card/ (if fit, can cook, and is non nagable)your wife and deeds to the gaff, if the car is a 20-D, ill have that too. Bless you my son

Montage of Feck

Dev in fairness did actually have a deep interest in science, he even set up the unfortunately rather now obscure Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, where the likes of Erwin Shrodinger was a director of the school of theoretical physics. Just a pity he wasn't as progressive in social and economic matters.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Institute_for_Advanced_Studies

py2006

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Be nice think that the children of this country wouldn’t have been handed over to the church to be assaulted and sexually abused for decades on end.

Thats been going on for centuries not decades

Montage of Feck

In relation to Collins given his background, first in the bureaucracy and then military intelligence, he would have been a leader in the vein of Franco.

ILoveYourVibes

Kylta wrote: »

Did god ask for your bank card and pin number. If he did he's not god because he knows everthing. Unlike the main man I'm his devoted apostle please forward to me your pin number your bankcard,/credit card/ (if fit, can cook, and is non nagable)your wife and deeds to the gaff, if the car is a 20-D, ill have that too. Bless you my son

Im female.

ILoveYourVibes

Montage of Feck wrote: »

Dev in fairness did actually have a deep interest in science, he even set up the unfortunately rather now obscure Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, where the likes of Erwin Shrodinger was a director of the school of theoretical physics. Just a pity he wasn't as progressive in social and economic matters.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Institute_for_Advanced_Studies

I would have liked to get into his psychology. His motivations.

ILoveYourVibes

Honestly ..i think with how brexit has turned the tables on the UK in negotiating with us with the EU being on our side ....

I think Eamon De Valera would smiling.

Kylta

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Im female.

I humbly apologise for misinterpreting you sex. I still bless you and now in more ways than one. To show im not sexist, you can still donate your bank card pin number etc. Won't ask for yor credit card ( probably overdrawn). But I insist on buying you dinner using your money. Doing gods work makes one hungry.
Oh if you have a boyfriend in the name of god ill have his bankcard/ car/ etc. Nobody knows how hard poor apostles like me word in the name of god

ILoveYourVibes

Kylta wrote: »

I humbly apologise for misinterpreting you sex. I still bless you and now in more ways than one. To show im not sexist, you can still donate your bank card pin number etc. Won't ask for yor credit card ( probably overdrawn). But I insist on buying you dinner using your money. Doing gods work makes one hungry.
Oh if you have a boyfriend in the name of god ill have his bankcard/ car/ etc. Nobody knows how hard poor apostles like me word in the name of god

Just ask god ..he'll tell you next week's lotto numbers !

Thanks for the blessing. I feel it in my waters!

Kylta

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Just ask god ..he'll tell you next week's lotto numbers !

God doesn't like me gambling. That why he closed the bookies. Besides I thought he was talking to you not me.

CrankyHaus

It's impossible to say.

For instance in the Civil War would the enormous concentration of power into his hands cause him to develop into a Generalissimo, strangling our democracy at birth to the detriment of the country ever since?
Examples of this abound in other post-colonial countries. Collins' character seemed ill-suited to Bonapartism but the stresses of the Civil War may have changed him. In fact one of the greatest achievements of our first governments was to create a solid democratic foundation for the state, which was far from guaranteed.

Or would he have reined-in the harsher elements of the Free State Government and settled the Civil-War in a more amiable manner, preventing it from being a divisive mill-stone holding back this country and its politics for nearly a century? He engaged in peace attempts prior to his assassination and had an affinity with the rebels not shared by the all of the Free State Government.

From his published writings it seems that he shared Dev's aim of regaining the six counties and turning the Free State into a Republic. It's hard to see anyone surpassing Dev's wiliness in achieving the latter goal, but Collins may well have given him a run for his money. He certainly had the talent.

Economically he seemed to broadly fit in with CnaG/FG policies favouring free trade and investment. So maybe no economic war. But possibly less of the state-driven development that FF performed from the 1930s.

bazz26

So we need an Irish version of The Man in the High Castle.