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Soc dems not negotiating with FF/FG

  • 13-05-2020 10:44pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 960 ✭✭✭


    So, with the latest turn of events. I'm a believer in parties negotiating to deliver some change during the lifetime of a government. Sometimes the talks fall apart and it ends in nothing new, but you have to try.....

    What's everyone elses views on if parties should negotiate or not?

    I'm a green btw, just to get that out there now, but I'm interested in the opinions out there...


Comments

  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,600 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Party founded on the basis of running away from Government when they didn't like a collective decision; what do you expect?

    This stage of negotiations is when you try to get FF/FG to give concessions that the Greens then insist on because they're on the table.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,329 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Roisin Shorthall left labour because she saw the writing on the wall for labour. She knows if she goes into government that the electorate always quite unfairly punish the small parties who enter coalition.

    Why bother trying to get some of your policies into place when you can safely hurl from the ditch instead.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭Pedro K


    L1011 wrote: »
    Party founded on the basis of running away from Government when they didn't like a collective decision; what do you expect?

    This stage of negotiations is when you try to get FF/FG to give concessions that the Greens then insist on because they're on the table.

    I can only assume that you're speaking of Shortall resigning as a minister? I would consider someone resigning a ministry due to their core principles to be a good thing. Would you rather somebody just continue to be a mudguard or lapdog to a senior coalition partner?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,341 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    Soc Dems know they need another election to get more numbers elected


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Runaways


    This is a no brainer
    None of the smaller parties or independent TDs Will get into bed with FFFG
    Why would they? its political suicide and career suicide


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,600 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Pedro K wrote: »
    I can only assume that you're speaking of Shortall resigning as a minister? I would consider someone resigning a ministry due to their core principles to be a good thing. Would you rather somebody just continue to be a mudguard or lapdog to a senior coalition partner?

    She ran away at the first minor issue when there was still plenty of time to get stuff done. I don't consider that principled, I consider that proof that she doesn't want to be in power
    Soc Dems know they need another election to get more numbers elected

    More likely they'd lose seats as SF transfers would go to the second SF candidate


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭Pedro K


    L1011 wrote: »
    She ran away at the first minor issue when there was still plenty of time to get stuff done. I don't consider that principled, I consider that proof that she doesn't want to be in power



    More likely they'd lose seats as SF transfers would go to the second SF candidate

    First minor issue?

    As junior minister for health she found out about the HSE CEO resignation from the media because Reilly didn't tell her. There were €130 million in cuts to the HSE which she again found out about from the media because Reilly didn't tell her. Reilly selected two towns in his constituency for primary care centres, which even his party colleague, one Leo Varadkar, said looked like stroke politics.

    It wasn't the "first minor issue." To characterise it as such is wrong.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,600 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    First two happen even between members of the same party in the same Department, if you're not ready for that you're not ready for office. She left a role where she could actually get stuff done to sit outside and moan.

    There's the old quote about the worst day in power being better than the best in opposition - she's opted for the latter quite permanently now it seems; yet people try to spin it as a principled stance. It saved her seat, it didn't actually help anyone else.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭man98


    Soc Dems know they need another election to get more numbers elected

    From speaking to SocDem members, I can tell you they're very afraid of another election. Winning six seats was a miracle, but they know that their success is tied to the underperformance of SF. Their decision to stay out is taken in the knowledge that there can be an election at any time and they don't want to be caught with their pants down, FFFG voters won't be doing them any favours.
    Pedro K wrote: »
    I can only assume that you're speaking of Shortall resigning as a minister? I would consider someone resigning a ministry due to their core principles to be a good thing. Would you rather somebody just continue to be a mudguard or lapdog to a senior coalition partner?

    Shortall single handedly set back free GP care for Under 6s by years when she left, and for what? She had the chance to make a difference and instead chose to shirk.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,458 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    L1011 wrote: »

    More likely they'd lose seats as SF transfers would go to the second SF candidate

    Indeed. Shorthall and Murphy don't have many elections left in them either, they are both heading into their late 60's. I don't see them staying at it forever.


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,600 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Indeed. Shorthall and Murphy don't have many elections left in them either, they are both heading into their late 60's. I don't see them staying at it forever.

    Murphy is obviously prepping the SD Cllr in Leixlip as her replacement - online she works across the entire constituency already.

    That's a seat lost if so, though.

    If Roisin/Catherine are not going to run next time they need to get out of leadership ASAP - Gannon is the only safe candidate beyond them I think. They need to do it soon or else they'll cut him off from getting any profile beyond Dublin.

    Age works against TDs significantly these days and we only have two over 70 that I'm aware of - both Roisin and Catherine are 66 and are amongst the oldest TDs. Kildare North had the oldest candidate lineup last time admittedly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    L1011 wrote: »
    Party founded on the basis of running away from Government when they didn't like a collective decision; what do you expect?

    This stage of negotiations is when you try to get FF/FG to give concessions that the Greens then insist on because they're on the table.

    So you think Shortall was not justified in resigning her junior minister seat when she saw the behaviour of James Reilly (the then FG minister of health) and how his constituency had a primary care unit built when it wasn't on the original list. I'm amazed at the derision a politician with principles gets, yet we bemoan the parish pump nature of other politicians.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,600 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    So you think Shortall was not justified in resigning her junior minister seat when she saw the behaviour of James Reilly (the then FG minister of health) and how his constituency had a primary care unit built when it wasn't on the original list. I'm amazed at the derision a politician with principles gets, yet we bemoan the parish pump nature of other politicians.

    I'm certain she could have achieved more on the inside pissing out than the outside pissing in.

    I'm amazed at the reveration she gets for leaving a post of power to end up doing nothing.

    Shortall jumped for the easy way out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,329 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    So you think Shortall was not justified in resigning her junior minister seat when she saw the behaviour of James Reilly (the then FG minister of health) and how his constituency had a primary care unit built when it wasn't on the original list. I'm amazed at the derision a politician with principles gets, yet we bemoan the parish pump nature of other politicians.

    You'd think that if she was so principled that she jump at the chance to actually make a difference by having her party be a kingmaker in government.

    At least the greens are willing to have a go to get some of their policies implemented. The SD's and Labaour are simply only interested in making a lot of noise.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,386 ✭✭✭Rosahane


    During the election campaign in North Kildare an SD canvasser told me that they could not go into government with FG.

    Subsequently, post election, on the North Kildare General Election thread on the Kildare Forum on Boards another SD was adamant that they would not go into Gov with either FG or FF.

    I think we can assume that they see themselves as the political hurlers on the ditch. Maybe they should re-name themselves: I propose "The Sulky Democrats"


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,341 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    L1011 wrote: »
    She ran away at the first minor issue when there was still plenty of time to get stuff done. I don't consider that principled, I consider that proof that she doesn't want to be in power



    More likely they'd lose seats as SF transfers would go to the second SF candidate

    It's also assuming SF are ever going to get as high a vote again


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Soc Dems going nowhere fast. Led by two mouth almightys well able to whinge but step back when they get a chance to do anything. If they went into power with FF and FG it would be easy to round up a few Indos to make the numbers. The sandal wearers could concentrate on their lettuce patch


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,386 ✭✭✭Rosahane


    Edgware wrote: »
    Soc Dems going nowhere fast. Led by two mouth almightys well able to whinge but step back when they get a chance to do anything. If they went into power with FF and FG it would be easy to round up a few Indos to make the numbers. The sandal wearers could concentrate on their lettuce patch

    If you look at their election manifesto there is very little difference to FF and FG policy - nothing that couldn't be worked out very easily.

    One has to assume that they have no intention of entering coalition and prefer to hang out in the long grass waiting to pounce.

    Of course Shorthall and Murphy have a history of this behaviour. It's a shame really as they could add a lot to a government - unlike the Greens!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Rosahane wrote: »
    If you look at their election manifesto there is very little difference to FF and FG policy - nothing that couldn't be worked out very easily.

    One has to assume that they have no intention of entering coalition and prefer to hang out in the long grass waiting to pounce.

    Of course not Shorthall and Murphy have a history of this behaviour. It's a shame really as they could add a lot to a government - unlike the Greens!

    I believe that the Soc Demd have some good policies but seem to have the view that no bread is better than half a loaf. At least if in power they could get some policies implemented and be in a position to block the least favourable ones coming from FF and FG


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,386 ✭✭✭Rosahane


    Edgware wrote: »
    I believe that the Soc Demd have some good policies but seem to have the view that no bread is better than half a loaf. At least if in power they could get some policies implemented and be in a position to block the least favourable ones coming from FF and FG

    Unlike the shinners "one for everyone in the audience" and the loopy left crowd, the SD policies are, in the main fine. The big policy goal they had was in the health care area and this is encompassed in the Slainte Care policies.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 974 ✭✭✭Palmach


    The Soc Dems.......................
    1. Ran a candidate who was an asylum seeker and who lied about her situation. Post this they continued to run her.
    2. Both Shorthall and Murphy said they would not pay water charges. A TD refusing to obey the law is not someone I want in government.

    Another left wing party valuing ideological purity over common-sense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    L1011 wrote: »
    Murphy is obviously prepping the SD Cllr in Leixlip as her replacement - online she works across the entire constituency already.

    That's a seat lost if so, though.

    If Roisin/Catherine are not going to run next time they need to get out of leadership ASAP - Gannon is the only safe candidate beyond them I think. They need to do it soon or else they'll cut him off from getting any profile beyond Dublin.

    Age works against TDs significantly these days and we only have two over 70 that I'm aware of - both Roisin and Catherine are 66 and are amongst the oldest TDs. Kildare North had the oldest candidate lineup last time admittedly.

    Murphy gets elected for being murphy, she could run for the national front and still get elected. Nuala Killeen cant hold herself anywhere near that in north kildare, especially with her political CV consisting of ‘i marched to repeal the 8th’ . When CM retires thats it for SD in kildare north.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,167 ✭✭✭Good loser


    Their opposition to water charges was unadulterated bandwaggoning and opportunism.
    Shorthall has a major problem with the private sector per se.
    Heard John Crown say the other day that an insurance based healthcare system like Germanys is the best modal to follow with the premiums for the poor paid by the State. Rather than copying the ailing NHS which is her policy through Slainte Care.
    She doesn't like private nursing homes either, semi blaming them for the big losses from Covid in their premises.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Shortall and Murphy could stand in for the two oul fellas on the Muppet Show


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Edgware wrote: »
    I believe that the Soc Demd have some good policies but seem to have the view that no bread is better than half a loaf. At least if in power they could get some policies implemented and be in a position to block the least favourable ones coming from FF and FG

    Didn't work out great for the Greens or Labour or the public. No point going in if you expect FF/FG to behave like FF/FG.


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